Second Northern penalty fine

[axn]

I'm not sure I follow the bit I've highlighted:


Do you mean the previous train had been delayed so you were there in time to catch it, but did not have time to buy a ticket for it, otherise you would have had to let it go? Or as it that the app would not let you select the delayed train since it should already have left the station?


I also think some resequencing of the letter may help it read better (highlighted in italics):

Dear Sir/ Madam,

I am writing in response to your letter on the … June 2024, thank you for offering me the chance to respond.

On the … of June 2024 I travelled from Burley Park to Leeds Station. I arrived at the station and attempted to buy a ticket on my phone for the train at the platform, but was unable to so since it was a delayed service. As a result, I boarded the train and bought a ticket for the next train thinking it would suffice. I would like to apologise for not having a correct ticket for my journey before boarding the train.

I am now aware a ticket must be bought before boarding the train and take full responsibility for this error. I have learnt an important lesson and in future will ensure I am better prepared and more organised when purchasing tickets in the future. I am eager to settle this matter without court action and would very much appreciate the opportunity to pay the outstanding fare and any administrative costs incurred by Northern Trains for dealing with this matter.



Thank you for your understanding consideration, I look forward to you hearing from you.



Kind regards,

Hi thanks for your reply, It would not let me buy a ticket as it was delayed and should have already departed, appreciate your response !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==

Hi thanks for your reply, It would not let me buy a ticket as it was delayed and should have already departed, appreciate your response !

Also, do you think I’m best to not include the part where I didn’t show the inspector the right ticket by accident, or do you think this would confuse the reader too much. I’ve tried to keep it as simple as I could, as I was thinking the person will probably be reading a lot of these a day and just want the basic details and apology etc.

 

[MotCO]

Also, do you think I’m best to not include the part where I didn’t show the inspector the right ticket by accident, or do you think this would confuse the reader too much. I’ve tried to keep it as simple as I could, as I was thinking the person will probably be reading a lot of these a day and just want the basic details and apology etc.

I don't think that including it would add anything to your story. I agree you should keep it simple.

 

[axn]

I don't think that including it would add anything to your story. I agree you should keep it simple.

cheers, this is the draft I have with improvements, I've also added a bit on the end about my change in address. Another point, is it worth me mentioning the fact I've had a previous penalty fare on this route, or is it best I just say nothing and hope they overlook this.

Dear Sir/ Madam,

I am writing in response to your letter on the … June 2024, thank you for offering me the chance to respond.

On the … of June 2024 I travelled from Burley Park to Leeds Station. I arrived at the station and attempted to buy a ticket on my phone for the train at the platform but was unable to do so since it was a delayed service. As a result, I boarded the train and bought a ticket for the next train thinking it would suffice. I would like to apologise for not having a correct ticket for my journey before boarding the train.

I am now aware a ticket must be bought before boarding the train and take full responsibility for this error. I have learnt an important lesson and will ensure I am better prepared and more organised when purchasing tickets in the future. I am eager to settle this matter without court action and would very much appreciate the opportunity to pay the outstanding fare and any administrative costs incurred by Northern Trains for dealing with this matter.


I would also like to kindly ask if further correspondence could be please sent to my home address which is …, as I am in the process of moving out of my student house, which is the current address you have.

Thank you for your understanding consideration, I look forward to you hearing from you.


Kind regards,

 

[MotCO]

Another point, is it worth me mentioning the fact I've had a previous penalty fare on this route, or is it best I just say nothing and hope they overlook this.

If it is a closed episode i.e. you have paid the penalty fare, then I would ignore it. You don't need to incriminate yourself unless they are asking specific questions, in which case you should not lie.

 

[axn]

If it is a closed episode i.e. you have paid the penalty fare, then I would ignore it. You don't need to incriminate yourself unless they are asking specific questions, in which case you should not lie.

Yes it was 2 months ago and I accepted the penalty fare on the spot. I gave my details and paid the £53 fine.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2024 ==

I've sent the email, just wondering, should I have included an image of the ticket I bought once on the train? @MotCO

 

[MotCO]

I've sent the email, just wondering, should I have included an image of the ticket I bought once on the train? @MotCO

I don't think it would make any difference. They saw you had bought a ticket on the train, and you mentioned it in your response. I don't think there is any doubt you had a ticket, just that you had bought it after boarding.

 

[ainsworth74]

Thread reopened for @axn to give an update.

 

[axn]

Hi thanks for reopening the thread. I’m really panicking as received my first response today and it is not looking good at all. I’ve received a single justice procedure notification which I have 21 days to plead either guilty or not guilty to. They’ve also decided to charge me with two offences, one being for abusive language - claiming I called the inspector a “silly c***” - which I didn’t. I have no idea what I should do, is there any chance they might still settle?

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi thanks for reopening the thread. I’m really panicking as received my first response today and it is not looking good at all. I’ve received a single justice procedure notification which I have 21 days to plead either guilty or not guilty to. They’ve also decided to charge me with two offences, one being for abusive language - claiming I called the inspector a “silly c***” - which I didn’t. I have no idea what I should do, is there any chance they might still settle?

First thing we need to cover off - did you or did you not use any abusive language (whether it was "silly ****" or something else) to the member of staff? Was the member of staff wearing a bodycam?

 

[axn]

First thing we need to cover off - did you or did you not use any abusive language (whether it was "silly ****" or something else) to the member of staff? Was the member of staff wearing a bodycam?

No I did not, I don’t believe I did anyway, what would classify as abusive language? He was wearing a body cam yes. But when I allegedly called him this, he was walking away so wouldn’t be on that anyway - if I had said it. I said something like s**t when he was walking away but not directed at him, and barely audible. I think he’s obviously just heard me say something and decided it was that.

 

[AlterEgo]

No I did not, I don’t believe I did anyway, what would classify as abusive language? He was wearing a body cam yes. But when I allegedly called him this, he was walking away so wouldn’t be on that anyway - if I had said it. I said something like s**t when he was walking away but not directed at him, and barely audible. I think he’s obviously just heard me say something and decided it was that.

I don't think the prosecution would be going ahead without a review of the body cam footage, but then I cannot be sure.

How do you know the allegation is that you called him this when he was walking away? Have you received a witness statement? If so, can you post it here with the names redacted?

 

[Cuthbert]

No I did not, I don’t believe I did anyway, what would classify as abusive language? He was wearing a body cam yes. But when I allegedly called him this, he was walking away so wouldn’t be on that anyway - if I had said it. I said something like s**t when he was walking away but not directed at him, and barely audible. I think he’s obviously just heard me say something and decided it was that.

Depending on the Body Worn they can pick up a lot of audio around them. Was he alone? He might have been with others and they might have also recorded something.

Abusive language would be any kind of insults or threats.

 

[axn]

I don't think the prosecution would be going ahead without a review of the body cam footage, but then I cannot be sure.

How do you know the allegation is that you called him this when he was walking away? Have you received a witness statement? If so, can you post it here with the names redacted?

Yes I’ve received a statement of facts and witness statement, will post now.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi, I started my journey at Burley, and was supposed to be going to Leeds station and then to Manchester. I got to burley station and the next train was delayed so I couldn’t buy a ticket for it, as a result I got onto it anyway and bought a ticket for the next train.

Is that the whole truth, or is the version of events in the witness statement true? Namely that you did not have a ticket, moved past the inspector, and then bought the ticket in front of him?

I can see why they aren't very impressed if your reply didn't include those details.

 

[John R]

Unfortunately you appear to have failed the attitude test from the start, in terms of not showing a ticket when asked (which would have taken seconds) and insisting on going to the toilet. I can see why they have chosen not to accept your apology and prosecute, and I doubt any further representation will make any difference. Ultimately it's your word against theirs in terms of the language used - who do you think the magistrate will believe?

 

[axn]

I got on the train and went straight to the toilet because I really was desperate, I came out and went to show him my ticket, which yes I had bought on the train, but accidentally showed him my ticket for travel after. After showing him that I was panicked and tried to buy another ticket in front of him.

So basically am I completely screwed and going to get a criminal record? Is there absolutely nothing I can do? Im in my final year of a law degree and am already very stressed out and struggling with my mental health, not that I’m looking for sympathy, I’d just really appreciate if there’s any chance anyone would be able to help me get out of this mess, surely there’s something I can say or do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2024 ==

Is it worth me getting a solicitor, should I email northern again to try and ask for a settlement again?

 

[AlterEgo]

I got on the train and went straight to the toilet because I really was desperate, I came out and went to show him my ticket, which yes I had bought on the train, but accidentally showed him my ticket for travel after. After showing him that I was panicked and tried to buy another ticket in front of him.

So basically am I completely screwed and going to get a criminal record? Is there absolutely nothing I can do? Im in my final year of a law degree and am already very stressed out and struggling with my mental health, not that I’m looking for sympathy, I’d just really appreciate if there’s any chance anyone would be able to help me get out of this mess, surely there’s something I can say or do.

Northern do usually settle but they appear to have taken the view here that your behaviour warrants prosecution. You didn't have a ticket, bought one when challenged, and were allegedly abusive to the staff.

Did you mention the exact series of events about buying your ticket when you wrote to Northern the first time? From the outset here you portrayed it as simply "well I got on the train anyway and bought a ticket for the next train" when in reality the witness statement shows you paid only when challenged. That you have already had a penalty fare on that train before won't have gone in your favour.

 

[axn]

Northern do usually settle but they appear to have taken the view here that your behaviour warrants prosecution. You didn't have a ticket, bought one when challenged, and were allegedly abusive to the staff.

Did you mention the exact series of events about buying your ticket when you wrote to Northern the first time? From the outset here you portrayed it as simply "well I got on the train anyway and bought a ticket for the next train" when in reality the witness statement shows you paid only when challenged. That you have already had a penalty fare on that train before won't have gone in your favour.

My response to northern when asked for my explanation is above in this thread. I had bought a ticket before I tried to buy one in front of the ticket officer, I just panicked and accidentally showed him my ticket for the train after then tried to buy another one. I didn’t want to over complicate my response the first time so just tried to keep it short and apologetic, but clearly they didn’t like it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2024 ==

My response to northern when asked for my explanation is above in this thread. I had bought a ticket before I tried to buy one in front of the ticket officer, I just panicked and accidentally showed him my ticket for the train after then tried to buy another one. I didn’t want to over complicate my response the first time so just tried to keep it short and apologetic, but clearly they didn’t like it.

Just to add as well, I really don’t think I was abusive to him, I don’t think mumbling under your breath something he evidently couldn’t even hear can be classed as abusive?

Not to mention, wouldn’t he have to lie in court if they want to convict me of this? As I 100% did not call him anything, never mind what they are alleging

 

[AlterEgo]

My response to northern when asked for my explanation is above in this thread. I had bought a ticket before I tried to buy one in front of the ticket officer, I just panicked and accidentally showed him my ticket for the train after then tried to buy another one. I didn’t want to over complicate my response the first time so just tried to keep it short and apologetic, but clearly they didn’t like it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2024 ==


Just to add as well, I really don’t think I was abusive to him, I don’t think mumbling under your breath something he evidently couldn’t even hear can be classed as abusive?

Not to mention, wouldn’t he have to lie in court if they want to convict me of this? As I 100% did not call him anything, never mind what they are alleging

Well he might have to testify, but the point is you have two charges here. Even if Northern sigh and drop the abusive language charge, you also have to convince them to drop the ticketing charge. What is the charge relating to the ticketing matter?

 

[axn]

Well he might have to testify, but the point is you have two charges here. Even if Northern sigh and drop the abusive language charge, you also have to convince them to drop the ticketing charge. What is the charge relating to the ticketing matter?

I attached the charge sheet above, I think it’s section 18(1) and 24 of the railway byelaws

 

[WesternLancer]

I got on the train and went straight to the toilet because I really was desperate, I came out and went to show him my ticket, which yes I had bought on the train, but accidentally showed him my ticket for travel after. After showing him that I was panicked and tried to buy another ticket in front of him.

So basically am I completely screwed and going to get a criminal record? Is there absolutely nothing I can do? Im in my final year of a law degree and am already very stressed out and struggling with my mental health, not that I’m looking for sympathy, I’d just really appreciate if there’s any chance anyone would be able to help me get out of this mess, surely there’s something I can say or do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2024 ==

Is it worth me getting a solicitor, should I email northern again to try and ask for a settlement again?

If you are studying for a law degree and aim to work in that profession it may well be that the risk to your future earnings from being prosecuted now, could mean engaging a solicitor to help you with this might be a price worth paying (ie paying their legal fees)

There are one or two firms who get mentioned on here who specialise in rail fare legal work (not sure if they deal with Northern but they may do) - you could ring them for a quote at least if you wanted

One just mentioned in another thread today as having resolved a case with Southeastern trains IRC is Manak Solicitors - I have no connection with them

https://manaksolicitors.co.uk/services/fare-evasion/

also Penman Sedgwick

Fare Evasion - Penman Sedgwick

penmansedgwick.com

 

[AlterEgo]

I attached the charge sheet above, I think it’s section 18(1) and 24 of the railway byelaws

Ok so you're definitely guilty of 18 (1) so if you let this go to court you will be convicted of at least this offence. You could either engage the services of a solicitor now, or you could try writing to Northern again.

 

[axn]

yeah I’m not sure whether to try and call some solicitors today first or try and get an email of to northern first

 

[Haywain]

or try and get an email of to northern first

There is little harm that can be done by sending a new email which shows contrition for your behaviour and isn't full of what might be seen to be weak excuses. As you admit using bad language as you walked away, you should apologise for that too - without specifying what was said.

 

[WesternLancer]

yeah I’m not sure whether to try and call some solicitors today first or try and get an email of to northern first

Obv it's your call - but if you opt to get a solicitor involved do not leave that until the last minute as you have a hard deadline to respond to the court papers. If the solicitor has less time to deal with it I suspect they will charge you more or may have less luck getting a successful outcome for you (but will still need to charge you for their work).

 

[axn]

There is little harm that can be done by sending a new email which shows contrition for your behaviour and isn't full of what might be seen to be weak excuses. As you admit using bad language as you walked away, you should apologise for that too - without specifying what was said.

I’ll try and draft an email up now. Would admitting to using bad language as I walked away not just make them more likely to prosecute for both charges though?

 

[Haywain]

Would admitting to using bad language as I walked away not just make them more likely to prosecute for both charges though?

As you have been charged with two matters I think you have to acknowledge both of them. I can't see how failing to do so will be helpful to your case.

 

[AlterEgo]

I’ll try and draft an email up now. Would admitting to using bad language as I walked away not just make them more likely to prosecute for both charges though?

Northern clearly believe that is what happened because that is what the inspector said, so if you don’t mention it, they may be more inclined to test this in court.

 

[dosxuk]

Would admitting to using bad language as I walked away not just make them more likely to prosecute for both charges though?

Ask yourself honestly if your use of bad language directed at the situation or the person? If the former, then there is nothing wrong with apologising and explaining exactly what you said and telling them you were frustrated at yourself and the situation. They think you swore at them, and you acknowledge you were swearing - there is nothing to be gained by trying to ignore this part of the case.

Bear in mind though that they may have a recording of what you did say, so if it was actually the latter, don't try and lie about it. The best you can hope for then is that a genuine apology and contriteness is enough to get them to drop the charge. Even if a recording is unclear, it may be clear enough to corroborate the witness statement beyond reasonable doubt, especially if you continue to claim you said nothing like what the inspector is saying you did.

 

[axn]

If I admit to swearing would they not just see that as an admission to using obscene or offensive language which still comes under section 6 though?