Second Northern penalty fine

[Haywain]

If I admit to swearing would they not just see that as an admission to using obscene or offensive language which still comes under section 6 though?

If this does go to court, will you plead guilty to that charge or not guilty? And if it's the latter, what is your defence going to be?

 

[axn]

If this does go to court, will you plead guilty to that charge or not guilty? And if it's the latter, what is your defence going to be?

I was planning on pleading not guilty - would you plead guilty to calling someone a “silly c**t” if you, in fact did not?

 

[AlterEgo]

I was planning on pleading not guilty - would you plead guilty to calling someone a “silly c**t” if you, in fact did not?

It depends on what you did in fact do, but it still isn’t in your interests to double down on this. You’ll end up being prosecuted for one offence anyway.

 

[axn]

It depends on what you did in fact do, but it still isn’t in your interests to double down on this. You’ll end up being prosecuted for one offence anyway.

Alright, Ive drafted up an email. Im not really sure how much detail I should go into it, so Ive tried to just keep it apologetic. Id appreciate any advice on what anyone thinks I should change or include ( which I'm sure there will be).

To whom it may concern,

I am emailing today to apologise for my actions on the 6th June 2024 and am appealing to you to give me the opportunity to settle this matter without court action. I know I should have bought a ticket before boarding the train and will not attempt to make any excuses for my behaviour, what I did was wrong – and I have certainly learnt my lesson.


I would also like to apologise for what the revenue protection officer perceived to be abusive language on my behalf directed at him. I learned from his witness statement he believed I called him a highly offensive term – which I did not. I can completely see why he would be aggrieved if he thought I called him that. However I can assure you, I merely mumbled under my breath my annoyance at myself for the situation I had got myself in.


I am an aspiring lawyer in the future and currently in my last year of a law degree. A criminal conviction would seriously affect my future career plans. I would really appreciate it, if you were to re-consider your stance and offer me the chance to cover all your costs incurred in dealing with my case - without the need for court action.

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter, I look forward to hearing back from you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd probably add to the end of the "I am an aspiring lawyer..." paragraph something like "I am willing to cover all your costs incurred in dealing with my case."

 

[axn]

thanks for the advice I've edited my response above. Do you think the rest of it sounds good though, anything else you think I should or shouldn’t say?

I'd probably add to the end of the "I am an aspiring lawyer..." paragraph something like "I am willing to cover all your costs incurred in dealing with my case.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2024 ==

Also should I just send this email to the email I sent my original explanation email to, or should I send it as a letter as well. Also there is a phone number on the charge sheet for the person who approved the charge at northern - is it worth trying to ring him?

 

[dosxuk]

I know I should have bought a ticket before boarding the train and will not attempt to make any excuses for my behaviour, what I did was wrong – and I have certainly learnt my lesson.

Not making excuses - good. Not explaining why you presented the wrong ticket, and then tried to buy one in front of the inspector - less so. Don't make excuses for what happened, but do explain what happened that the inspector wasn't aware of at the time.

Your behaviour in the witness report reads exactly as a habitual pay-when-challenged offender would behave. You need to establish to the TOC that this isn't in fact what you were doing. Present to them, with evidence, the tickets you held that day - it sounds as if three were involved - and explain the timeline of how they were purchased and presented.

 

[furlong]

So you are voluntarily telling them you want to be a lawyer? Clearly it is then definitely not in the public interest to settle with you out-of-court, as I think most people would consider that someone who does what you are alleged to have done is better not employed in the legal profession and the sooner your unsuitability is detected and put on record through a criminal conviction, the better!

(In other words, think hard about whether the view I just expressed might prevail over the argument you are giving them about your career.)

 

[axn]

Okay right, Ive changed it taking your advice into consideration, however I am now worried it might be too long, and potentially not paint me in a great light anyway. Thanks again guys for your help, I really appreciate you taking time out to help me!

To whom it may concern,

I am emailing today to apologise for my actions on the 6th June 2024 and am appealing to you to give me the opportunity to settle this matter without court action. I know what I did was wrong – I should have been better prepared, and I have certainly learnt my lesson. I do however want to better explain what happened from my perspective as I feel I perhaps didn’t do a great job in my last correspondence.

When I boarded the train, I didn’t have a ticket as the train had been delayed and I couldn’t buy a ticket on the app. Stupidly I boarded the train anyway and quickly headed to the toilet as I was genuinely in desperate need. Before getting to the toilet, I encountered the revenue protection officer, and told him I needed the toilet and would talk to him when I got out. At this point I bought a ticket for the train after and planned on showing him when I got out. I understand this seems like the behaviour of someone who was trying to avoid paying for a train ticket, but genuinely I wasn’t. I did unfortunately for me, bump into the inspector before I could buy one on the train – which I can see looks as though I was only going to pay when challenged. I then came out of the toilet and accidentally showed the ticket officer the ticket for my train to Manchester (instead of the ticket I bought for the current train). When he scanned this ticket, it came up as Leeds to Halifax which confused me further, as I wasn’t going to Halifax and tried to explain to him, I must have mistakenly bought a ticket to Halifax and proceeded to try and buy the correct ticket in front of him. I think a Halifax ticket must have came up due to my ticket being a split save.

Ultimately, I boarded the train without a ticket, which I shouldn’t have, I should have bought my ticket in advance. I understand how my behaviour seems like someone who was trying to avoid paying, but I really wasn’t. I panicked in the situation, by showing the inspector the wrong ticket and was stupid in the first place by not having a ticket for the train pre bought.

I would also like to apologise for what the revenue protection officer perceived to be abusive language on my behalf directed at him. I learned from the witness statement he believed I called him a highly offensive term – which I did not. I can completely see why he would be aggrieved if he thought I called him that, but I can assure you, I merely mumbled under my breath my annoyance at myself for the situation I had got myself in, and it was not the offensive term the revenue protection officer believed it to be.

I am a student in the last year of my degree and a criminal conviction would seriously affect my future career plans. I would really appreciate it, if you were to re-consider your stance and offer me the chance to settle the matter without court action. I would of course cover all your costs incurred in dealing with my case, and be much appreciative of your consideration, if you were to do so.

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter, I look forward to hearing back from you.

 

[Hadders]

The first version of the letter is better, the latest version is too long.

 

[30907]

The first version of the letter is better, the latest version is too long.

Agree, but take out the two sentences about your career prospects altogether.

 

[axn]

Agree, but take out the two sentences about your career prospects altogether.

The first version of the letter is better, the latest version is too long.

Okay thank you! Ive done some looking around and the general consensus seems to be that it’s a bit of grey area as to whether these byelaw offences go on to DBS checks. Does anyone know if they do or not? Also can this seriously impact my future career choices?

 

[AlterEgo]

Okay thank you! Ive done some looking around and the general consensus seems to be that it’s a bit of grey area as to whether these byelaw offences go on to DBS checks. Does anyone know if they do or not? Also can this seriously impact my future career choices?

A conviction under the Bylaws will not show on a Basic or Standard DBS but may, in some context-specific circumstances, show on an Enhanced DBS.

You may have in the course of your employment, a requirement to disclose unspent, and sometimes even spent convictions, regardless of whether the DBS will tell your employer about them or not. In some cases not telling your employer or insurer about a conviction can be a criminal offence in and of itself.

 

[axn]

Do you think a job as a solicitor would come under context - specific circumstances? Is there a way to find out how many byelaw offences are actually disclosed in an enhanced DBS?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2024 ==

Also I haven’t sent them anything yet as I wasn’t sure if I sent them something it might hinder my chances of a solicitor being able to sort it for me? Or that I’d just get no response at all. I’ve instructed a solicitor now but am so torn that I’m just wasting more money on it and that I may as well just pay the fine and be done with it

 

[AlterEgo]

Do you think a job as a solicitor would come under context - specific circumstances?

I would like to think a solicitor would, yes. It is at the discretion of the disclosing officer. If you want to become a solicitor I would think you should enquire with the SRA about whether you would pass a fit and proper person test.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2024 ==

Also I haven’t sent them anything yet as I wasn’t sure if I sent them something it might hinder my chances of a solicitor being able to sort it for me? Or that I’d just get no response at all. I’ve instructed a solicitor now but am so torn that I’m just wasting more money on it and that I may as well just pay the fine and be done with it

If you have instructed a solicitor you should take their advice. You are paying for it and they will be able to help you much better than an internet forum can.

 

[Hadders]

My understanding is that a conviction under the railway byelaws is a criminal conviction but they aren't normally recorded on the Police National Computer and ordinarily won't show on DBS checks. That said a conviction is a matter of public record and there are other ways for organisations to check convictions so it is possible that a byelaw conviction could be disclosed in certain situations.

I always advise being honest if you're asked if you have a conviction. I would not expect a conviction for a minor railway ticketing matter to adversely impact future career prospects but the key thing is to be honest about it if asked.

If you've instructed a solicitor then you shoud follow their advice, particularly as you'll be paying them quite a lot for their services.

 

[axn]

My understanding is that a conviction under the railway byelaws is a criminal conviction but they aren't normally recorded on the Police National Computer and ordinarily won't show on DBS checks. That said a conviction is a matter of public record and there are other ways for organisations to check convictions so it is possible that a byelaw conviction could be disclosed in certain situations.

I always advise being honest if you're asked if you have a conviction. I would not expect a conviction for a minor railway ticketing matter to adversely impact future career prospects but the key thing is to be honest about it if asked.

If you've instructed a solicitor then you shoud follow their advice, particularly as you'll be paying them quite a lot for their services.

Okay thanks for that, and everyone for the help I've received on this, Ill try and update on here of the final outcome.

 

[MotCO]

I always advise being honest if you're asked if you have a conviction. I would not expect a conviction for a minor railway ticketing matter to adversely impact future career prospects but the key thing is to be honest about it if asked.

Indeed, if you are found to have deliberately concealed a conviction from your employer, then the punishment for that concealment is likely to be worse than the offence itself.

 

[axn]

If anyone was interested, I managed to get an out of court settlement for £100.

 

[ainsworth74]

If anyone was interested, I managed to get an out of court settlement for £100.

Congratulations and I'm glad you got a resolution. Also thanks for letting us know, it is helpful so we have some idea of what to indicate to other people what the financial cost might be!

 

[momo18]

If anyone was interested, I managed to get an out of court settlement for £100.

Out of interest, what was the timescale for them sending you the out of court settlement? I have sent an email off to northern begging for an OOC settlement but no word yet. My incident was from 19th August. So far only had one letter asking for more information and a second duplicate the same from end of September
Glad you got a good outcome!

 

[axn]

Out of interest, what was the timescale for them sending you the out of court settlement? I have sent an email off to northern begging for an OOC settlement but no word yet. My incident was from 19th August. So far only had one letter asking for more information and a second duplicate the same from end of September
Glad you got a good outcome!

6/6/24 got the penalty notice

20/6/24 first letter asking for my version of events (also got duplicate letter as you did)

I responded to this letter via email, which you can see if you go back in this thread. I got the response saying it’s been passed to prosecution team and I’ll hear back in due course.

Then didn’t get anything until 13/11/24 - which was the single justice procedure notice, telling me their taking it too court basically.

Then decided to contact a solicitor, who spoke to northern for me and managed to convince them to settle for a good fee all things considered.

 

[momo18]

6/6/24 got the penalty notice

20/6/24 first letter asking for my version of events (also got duplicate letter as you did)

I responded to this letter via email, which you can see if you go back in this thread. I got the response saying it’s been passed to prosecution team and I’ll hear back in due course.

Then didn’t get anything until 13/11/24 - which was the single justice procedure notice, telling me their taking it too court basically.

Then decided to contact a solicitor, who spoke to northern for me and managed to convince them to settle for a good fee all things considered.

That’s really handy to know thank you! Got you a good deal in the end! Sounds like I could do with a recommendation for solicitors if you wouldn’t mind sharing who you went with? I could send you a message for details if it’s not allowed on the forums?

 

[WesternLancer]

That’s really handy to know thank you! Got you a good deal in the end! Sounds like I could do with a recommendation for solicitors if you wouldn’t mind sharing who you went with? I could send you a message for details if it’s not allowed on the forums?

People have certainly named solicitors firms they have found helpful on their threads so that others can seek quotes, for example.

The majority of forum users seem to achieve settlements without solicitors help but of course every case is different.

 

[axn]

That’s really handy to know thank you! Got you a good deal in the end! Sounds like I could do with a recommendation for solicitors if you wouldn’t mind sharing who you went with? I could send you a message for details if it’s not allowed on the forums?

I used manak solicitors, had seen a few people on here had used them and had good reviews! I don’t know the details of your situation but hopefully they will offer you an out of court settlement in the first instance, which I think northern usually do. I think they didn’t with me because they believed I was also abusive to the staff, which was probably seen as more reason to prosecute.

 

[island]

Do you think a job as a solicitor would come under context - specific circumstances? Is there a way to find out how many byelaw offences are actually disclosed in an enhanced DBS?

I would like to think a solicitor would, yes. It is at the discretion of the disclosing officer. If you want to become a solicitor I would think you should enquire with the SRA about whether you would pass a fit and proper person test.

I realise the case is now closed so this is moot as respects the OP, but for others reading, it should be noted that an enhanced DBS check does not apply to solicitors, only standard.