Second Northern penalty fine

[axn]

Hi, I started my journey at Burley, and was supposed to be going to Leeds station and then to Manchester. I got to burley station and the next train was delayed so I couldn’t buy a ticket for it, as a result I got onto it anyway and bought a ticket for the next train.

However when I showed the inspector my ticket I accidentally showed him my ticket from Leeds to Halifax (it was a part of a split ticket to Manchester) and he told me it’s the wrong ticket. This obviously confused me and I panicked as I thought I had bought a ticket to Halifax by mistake, and tried to buy the right one in front of him and he said there’s no point and that I’d be getting a fine, (by which point I had already bought another ticket).

Anyway, we got of the train, I gave him my details and as I was walking off muttered to myself, as I was annoyed with myself as it’s the second time I had got a fine now on this train. Anyway, the inspector then followed me and told me I wasn’t going to be allowed on the next train for being abusive to him (I genuinely was not abusive to him), I explained this to him and asked him what he thought I said and he said he’s not telling me. We then got in a bit of an argument and I was annoyed so just carried on walking to my train thinking he wasn’t being serious, to find he indeed was and stopped me getting on my next train. Meaning my ticket I bought to Manchester just went to waste on top of this fine I’m going to get.

On top of this I still haven’t received the letter in the post and I’m moving house at the end of this month. I know what I did was stupid and just want to know what I should I do now, if anyone’s got any advice regarding the situation it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you're expecting a letter, set up a Royal Mail redirection to your new address (or to any other address e.g. a friend if more convenient). This is always a good thing to do on moving anyway as it highlights any address changes you may have forgotten. There's a small fee for it but it's affordable.

 

[ainsworth74]

Could you upload a copy of the tickets (suitably redacted to hide any personal details)? Did you buy your ticket before you boarded the train at Burley Park and what type of ticket was it?

 

[axn]

Could you upload a copy of the tickets (suitably redacted to hide any personal details)? Did you buy your ticket before you boarded the train at Burley Park and what type of ticket was it?

No I had bought my ticket from Leeds to Manchester but hadn’t bought my one from Burley to Leeds yet as was planning on just doing so when I got to the station, but couldn’t as the train had been delayed so was unable to buy a ticket for the train that was at the station when I got there, so boarded the train and upon boarding bought a ticket for the subsequent train (again I know stupid as would not be valid, but stupidly didnt think it would be a big deal, which I should have considering I had been fined on this exact route just 2 months before). I have attached the ticket I l bought from Burley to Leeds once I got on the train.

 

[ainsworth74]

Hmm that's quite frustrating, that ticket would have been valid on the train you travelled on (Off-Peak Day singles for that journey are valid on any train between 0930 and 1600 and then from 1830 onwards, Monday to Friday). You have to chose a train as most booking sites are powered by itineraries but they're only optional but that doesn't change the overall validity. However, because the ticket was bought after the train you travelled on departed, it looks like it departed at 1453 checking some historic train running info here and the ticket clearly shows it was bought at 1454, then at the point of boarding and travelling you did not hold a valid ticket.

I think the best bet at the moment is to set up a redirection at @Bletchleyite suggests and then wait for Northern to write to you. But as you have already been caught out once and this interaction makes it look very much like someone who was only going to pay when challenged I'm not sure if Northern will be quite so willing to settle and even if they are its likely to be much more than for a first offender.

 

[axn]

If you're expecting a letter, set up a Royal Mail redirection to your new address (or to any other address e.g. a friend if more convenient). This is always a good thing to do on moving anyway as it highlights any address changes you may have forgotten. There's a small fee for it but it's affordable.

I didn’t think of this, but either way I feel it would be a waste of money as I’m certain I wouldn’t be expecting any other post as I’ve signed up for nothing at this address, as I’m still a student. Could I not just get in contact with them and ask them to send any letters to my new address?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jun 2024 ==

Hmm that's quite frustrating, that ticket would have been valid on the train you travelled on (Off-Peak Day singles for that journey are valid on any train between 0930 and 1600 and then from 1830 onwards, Monday to Friday). You have to chose a train as most booking sites are powered by itineraries but they're only optional but that doesn't change the overall validity. However, because the ticket was bought after the train you travelled on departed, it looks like it departed at 1453 checking some historic train running info here and the ticket clearly shows it was bought at 1454, then at the point of boarding and travelling you did not hold a valid ticket.

I think the best bet at the moment is to set up a redirection at @Bletchleyite suggests and then wait for Northern to write to you. But as you have already been caught out once and this interaction makes it look very much like someone who was only going to pay when challenged I'm not sure if Northern will be quite so willing to settle and even if they are its likely to be much more than for a first offender.

That’s worried me a bit, do you have any idea what the chances are they will settle with me? And if they did how much would I be expecting to pay?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn’t think of this, but either way I feel it would be a waste of money as I’m certain I wouldn’t be expecting any other post as I’ve signed up for nothing at this address, as I’m still a student. Could I not just get in contact with them and ask them to send any letters to my new address?

You could try, but the danger is it getting lost. I'd very much recommend the redirect. It's not expensive.

 

[ainsworth74]

That’s worried me a bit, do you have any idea what the chances are they will settle with me? And if they did how much would I be expecting to pay?

Northern are one of the companies that's much happier settling than most so I suspect that they're probably still willing to settle, but I wouldn't be surprised for mid/high three figures. But that is entirely a guess on my part to be clear! We don't come across that many people who have been caught twice so its harder to gauge. There's also the issue of, what from their perspective is, the abusive language used against a member of their staff. Which may harden their opinion on the matter as well.

 

[axn]

You could try, but the danger is it getting lost. I'd very much recommend the redirect. It's not expensive.

Okay I’ll get that done, do you know how long I’ll need to get my mail redirected for? I think it’s something like £60 which seems like a lot to me but if I’m lucky enough to get away with a settlement I suppose that’s going to be considerably more now. It’s such an annoying situation because if I had just shown him the correct ticket none of this likely would have happened would it. I’m also a law student so definitely should have known better and really cannot afford a criminal record so it’s going to be a very anxious few months for me now.

 

[The exile]

Okay I’ll get that done, do you know how long I’ll need to get my mail redirected for? I think it’s something like £60 which seems like a lot to me but if I’m lucky enough to get away with a settlement I suppose that’s going to be considerably more now. It’s such an annoying situation because if I had just shown him the correct ticket none of this likely would have happened would it. I’m also a law student so definitely should have known better and really cannot afford a criminal record so it’s going to be a very anxious few months for me now.

It’s £39.50 for up to 3 months in the uk.

 

[axn]

It’s £39.50 for up to 3 months in the uk.

Okay, is that all I’ll need to get it for? As I read somewhere else it can take them 6 months to send a letter somewhere else on here.

 

[The exile]

Send them a notification of change of address by recorded delivery as well.

 

[axn]

Send them a notification of change of address by recorded delivery as well.

Okay, do you have an address as to where I’d send this to and in what format I would have to do so? Thank you for help, much appreciated

 

[The exile]

Okay, do you have an address as to where I’d send this to and in what format I would have to do so? Thank you for help, much appreciated

I should have thought that they would have had to have given you some kind of documentation which surely, like any other official communication from a company, must give you either their company registration number or registered address.

 

[axn]

I should have thought that they would have had to have given you some kind of documentation which surely, like any other official communication from a company, must give you either their company registration number or registered address.

No, once I had given him my details etc and it was all done I was given no sort of documentation or anything, should I have been?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2024 ==

Just wanted to add this thought. If this gets escalated, if I informed them I am intending on bringing a claim against the railway for breach of contract, as they refused me onto my next train, they might consider not prosecuting? This is because in the byelaws it states a person can be refused entry onto a train if they reasonably believe the person is being abusive, however in my case I wasn’t, and I don’t believe there is any evidence to suggest so. Thus them refusing me entry onto my subsequent train was a breach of contract?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2024 ==

No, once I had given him my details etc and it was all done I was given no sort of documentation or anything, should I have been?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2024 ==

Just wanted to add this thought. If this gets escalated, if I informed them I am intending on bringing a claim against the railway for breach of contract, as they refused me onto my next train, they might consider not prosecuting? This is because in the byelaws it states a person can be refused entry onto a train if they reasonably believe the person is being abusive, however in my case I wasn’t, and I don’t believe there is any evidence to suggest so. Thus them refusing me entry onto my subsequent train was a breach of contract?

Northern are one of the companies that's much happier settling than most so I suspect that they're probably still willing to settle, but I wouldn't be surprised for mid/high three figures. But that is entirely a guess on my part to be clear! We don't come across that many people who have been caught twice so it’s harder to gauge. There's also the issue of, what from their perspective is, the abusive language used against a member of their staff. Which may harden their opinion on the matter as well.

What about the fact i know I wasn’t abusive, and their refusal to let me travel on my next train, which from what I can tell is a breach of contract on their behalf?

 

[ainsworth74]

What about the fact i know I wasn’t abusive, and their refusal to let me travel on my next train, which from what I can tell is a breach of contract on their behalf?

Those are certainly things you could mention in any reply you send to Northern. Though they would probably note that the failure was yours first and, of course, in terms of the abuse they will be far more likely to trust their member of staff at least until there is some corroborating evidence for your version of events.

I think you will need to see what they actually write to you and say in their correspondence. You can then take a view of what outcome you're after and then how best to achieve that outcome. I suspect that being combative, however, is likely to lead to a less than optimal outcome.

 

[axn]

Those are certainly things you could mention in any reply you send to Northern. Though they would probably note that the failure was yours first and, of course, in terms of the abuse they will be far more likely to trust their member of staff at least until there is some corroborating evidence for your version of events.

I think you will need to see what they actually write to you and say in their correspondence. You can then take a view of what outcome you're after and then how best to achieve that outcome. I suspect that being combative, however, is likely to lead to a less than optimal outcome.

Got my letter today, have posted it redacted below, any advice would be appreciated!

 

[jamiearmley]

Just wanted to add this thought. If this gets escalated, if I informed them I am intending on bringing a claim against the railway for breach of contract, as they refused me onto my next train, they might consider not prosecuting?

Just a thought on this : someone is going to sit at some point and review your case and decide how to proceed. You need to remember that they have a range of options open to them, starting of course with taking no action at all; just asking for the due fare; offering an out of court settlement, or going straight to prosecution - among others.

Every option which is 'less than' prosecution is discretionary - you have, according to your description of events, committed a strict liability bylaw offence by purchasing your ticket after boarding the train.

Do you really think that contacting them and threatening to submit a vexatious complaint - either against the staff member who dealt with you or the railway itself - is going to persuade the decision maker to apply their discretion?

 

[AlterEgo]

Just wanted to add this thought. If this gets escalated, if I informed them I am intending on bringing a claim against the railway for breach of contract, as they refused me onto my next train, they might consider not prosecuting?

No, they would certainly prosecute you anyway, to teach you a lesson. I wouldn't bother entertaining this course of action.

 

[axn]

No, they would certainly prosecute you anyway, to teach you a lesson. I wouldn't bother entertaining this course of action.

Yeah I did think this, but thought if their was any chance of it helping it was worth asking others, thanks for the reply.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2024 ==

@Hadders I’ve seen from quite a few other posts that you are the one to go to for help drafting responses. Any help you could give me would greatly appreciated!

 

[gray1404]

If you want to make a complaint against the member of staff or bring a claim for breach of contract then I would recommend you do this after (and indeed if) you have been able to reach an out of court settlement or get the matter dropped.

 

[skyhigh]

If you want to make a complaint against the member of staff or bring a claim for breach of contract then I would recommend you do this after (and indeed if) you have been able to reach an out of court settlement or get the matter dropped.

Or just drop the idea to claim for breach of contract, which frankly is a silly idea and doomed to failure.

 

[axn]

Or just drop the idea to claim for breach of contract, which frankly is a silly idea and doomed to failure.

Alright guys, I get it, I won’t entertain the idea. I’d appreciate if anyone can give any help with drafting a response in order to give me to best chance of a settlement.

Some other questions I have: As they haven’t mentioned anything about my previous penalty fare should I not mention that in the response? Also, is it possible to reply by email, or does it have to sent by mail. I know it says on the letter response can be sent by email, I’m just ensure how the logistics of this would work; would I scan it and then just put my response in an email with the letter attached?

 

[yorkie]

If you plan to pursue Northern for denying travel on the next train, I would keep that as an entirely separate matter.

I think if you got a good solicitor who is aware of the wider issues regarding Northern, you may have a chance of success, but it could be extremely costly and time-consuming. If you are prepared to pay good money, send me a message, and I'll see if I can sort something out for you...

 

[ikcdab]

Yeah I did think this, but thought if their was any chance of it helping it was worth asking others, thanks for the reply.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2024 ==

@Hadders I’ve seen from quite a few other posts that you are the one to go to for help drafting responses. Any help you could give me would greatly appreciated!

If you have seen the previous threads then you will have seen how to formulate the letter. However, you will need to go a little bit further to convince them you are now a reformed character as you have been caught before and didnt learn the lesson then. And by lesson, i don't mean travelling witout a ticket because yoiu seemed to appreciate the need to do this, but more the need to be properly organised in ticket purchasing and keeping them readily available.
Draft a response and post it here for comment.

 

[axn]

I have drafted a response and would appreciate and feedback. I didn't include the matter of showing the inspector the wrong ticket by accident as I thought it would just confuse the reader, please do let me know if it would be better to include this detail. I also haven't included the fact I received a penalty fare on this route a few months back as I'm not sure if this would help my case exactly, anyway here it is:

Dear Sir/ Madam,



I am writing in response to your letter on the … June 2024, thank you for offering me the chance to respond.



On the … of June 2024 I travelled from Burley Park to Leeds Station. I would like to firstly apologise for not having a correct ticket for my journey before boarding the train. I arrived at the station and attempted to buy a ticket on my phone for the train, which was already there, but was unable to, due to it being delayed. As a result, I boarded the train and bought a ticket for the next train thinking it would suffice.



However, I am now aware a ticket must be bought before boarding the train and take full responsibility for this error. I have learnt an important lesson and in future will ensure I am better prepared and more organised when purchasing tickets in the future. I am eager to settle this matter without court action and will pay the outstanding fare and any administrative costs incurred by Northern Trains for dealing with this matter.



Thank you for your understanding consideration, I look forward to you hearing from you.



Kind regards,

 

[John R]

You need to replace “and will pay” with”and would very much appreciate the opportunity to pay”.

The latter shows that you are asking nicely if they will permit you, rather than telling them what you will do. The ball is firmly in their court, and you need to show them that you understand that.

 

[axn]

You need to replace “and will pay” with”and would very much appreciate the opportunity to pay”.

The latter shows that you are asking nicely if they will permit you, rather than telling them what you will do. The ball is firmly in their court, and you need to show them that you understand that.

Thank you, will make sure to change this for the final draft, appreciate your help!

@ikcdab @Hadders @ainsworth84 I would appreciate if any of you would be able look over my draft and see if there's any changes that need to made, thank you!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==

.

 

[ikcdab]

I think that's fine. Go ahead.

 

[MotCO]

I'm not sure I follow the bit I've highlighted:

Hi, I started my journey at Burley, and was supposed to be going to Leeds station and then to Manchester. I got to burley station and the next train was delayed so I couldn’t buy a ticket for it, as a result I got onto it anyway and bought a ticket for the next train.

Do you mean the previous train had been delayed so you were there in time to catch it, but did not have time to buy a ticket for it, otherise you would have had to let it go? Or as it that the app would not let you select the delayed train since it should already have left the station?


I also think some resequencing of the letter may help it read better (highlighted in italics):

Dear Sir/ Madam,

I am writing in response to your letter on the … June 2024, thank you for offering me the chance to respond.

On the … of June 2024 I travelled from Burley Park to Leeds Station. I arrived at the station and attempted to buy a ticket on my phone for the train at the platform, but was unable to so since it was a delayed service. As a result, I boarded the train and bought a ticket for the next train thinking it would suffice. I would like to apologise for not having a correct ticket for my journey before boarding the train.

I am now aware a ticket must be bought before boarding the train and take full responsibility for this error. I have learnt an important lesson and in future will ensure I am better prepared and more organised when purchasing tickets in the future. I am eager to settle this matter without court action and would very much appreciate the opportunity to pay the outstanding fare and any administrative costs incurred by Northern Trains for dealing with this matter.



Thank you for your understanding consideration, I look forward to you hearing from you.



Kind regards,