Second digital fraud email - £1,500+ fine?

[Account2255]

Hi all, looking for some advice please. I’ve got a railcard and been using this for discounted train tickets. I’ve been using this to get anytime open returns for my commute to work. In December I got stopped by a train operator who said I shouldn’t be using my railcard before 9am and he scanned my ticket then made me buy a new one at full price.

I had then purchased a ticket not long after with a train operator using my railcard before 9am and there was no issue so presumed this train operator was wrong.

I had continued using my railcard for tickets pre 9am although I have not been travelling via train as frequently as pre this incident.

I received this first email saying I have made trips without a railcard. I replied to the email asking for further details and attached a picture of my current railcard which showed it was active during the incident in December.

I’ve now received a second email saying I have failed to provide evidence then after a review I have 159 incidents totalling £1,300+ which I now owe them with a £200 fee.

I have had a railcard for a number of years, I’m not sure on the pre 9am rule as this doesn’t seem too clear and I’ve only ever had that one train operator refuse my ticket. Any advice on what to do would be much appreciated as this is very stressful. I’m hoping maybe they didn’t see me send my railcard, and providing this will resolve the issue?

 

[methecooldude]

You may want to remove and re-do the image named IMG_2335, as your name is visiable.

Which TOC is this and what railcard do you have?

When booking, did you select the correct time train or a later one which showed a lower price?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Account2255. Welcome to the forum. Could you provide some of the additional info, as per the below linked thread?

Please read before posting in Disputes & Prosecutions

Guidance for those asking for advice: Please bear in mind the following, when asking for advice in this section: We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example: The stations* where you actually started & finished your journey The stations* where you changed...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Account2255]

You may want to remove and re-do the image named IMG_2335, as your name is visiable.

Which TOC is this and what railcard do you have?

When booking, did you select the correct time train or a later one which showed a lower price?

Thanks for letting me know - now updated.
West Midlands Trains
26-30 railcard
All tickets booked through Trainline. I would just select the lowest price but would always select anytime return rather than a off peak time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2024 ==

Thanks for letting me know - now updated.
West Midlands Trains
26-30 railcard
All tickets booked through Trainline. I would just select the lowest price but would always select anytime return rather than a off peak time

My destination each morning is Birmingham New Street which has train scanners. Will West Midlands Trains know if I scanned my tickets before 9:00 as there is rarely a train operator scanning tickets on the train

 

[AlterEgo]

It sounds like they just want to see your railcards or proof of purchasing them. Do you have the receipts for them, or email confirmations they were paid for?

They haven’t mentioned anything about time restrictions in their email (which is badly written, as is now custom to see from these people). Hopefully providing proof of the railcards will be sufficient for them.

One thing which is unsettling about the email is they are clearly working from a template, and where they say “As you have failed to provide the evidence…” this should clearly be immediately followed by them explaining a consequence or next step, and the email does not do that. It just repeats the initial allegation in boilerplate. They should get someone who is fully proficient in English to write these emails.

 

[Account2255]

It sounds like they just want to see your railcards or proof of purchasing them. Do you have the receipts for them, or email confirmations they were paid for?

They haven’t mentioned anything about time restrictions in their email (which is badly written, as is now custom to see from these people). Hopefully providing proof of the railcards will be sufficient for them.

One thing which is unsettling about the email is they are clearly working from a template, and where they say “As you have failed to provide the evidence…” this should clearly be immediately followed by them explaining a consequence or next step, and the email does not do that. It just repeats the initial allegation in boilerplate. They should get someone who is fully proficient in English to write these emails.

I had replied to the previous email with my railcard but they don’t seem to have seen this. Shall I just email back again hoping they see it, or would it be best to try call the them?

 

[AlterEgo]

I had replied to the previous email with my railcard but they don’t seem to have seen this. Shall I just email back again hoping they see it, or would it be best to try call the them?

I’d reply again, but it does seem by implication they want to see previous railcards too, as there are a lot of tickets involved. Would that be right?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Account2255. You've not said what the other station is, but looks like the issue here is that you've possibly been routinely buying/using 26-30 railcard discounted tickets bought for train times later on in the day, and then used them before 10 a.m. when a £12 minimum fare would have applied.

For example, an Anytime Day Return from, say, Stafford to Birmingham Stns is £16.90 and is valid on any train, there and back, the same day.

With 26-30 railcard discount, the Anytime Day Return is reduced to £11.15, but as that's then now below the £12 railcard minimum, it isn't normally valid for use for any journeys before 10 a.m.

So what you can't do, is to buy the £11.15 ticket meant for use on the 1009 Stafford->Birmingham New Street (WMT) train, or a later train, and then travel on the 0809.

 

[Account2255]

I’ve responded with a copy of my current railcard which was active since September 2023, then included an email of the digital download for my railcard the previous year. Hopefully they don’t just ignore/miss this as I had sent my railcard on 27/05/24 being the day of the first email.

If it was for breaking the pre 10am rule, would the fine not be the difference in ticket costs rather than the cost of all 159 journeys?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If it was for breaking the pre 10am rule, would the fine not be the difference in ticket costs rather than the cost of all 159 journeys?

Not necessarily. The railway company may well be of the opinion that a railcard discounted ticket which is below the £12 minimum fare but still used before 10 a.m. wasn't ever valid, and so the full fare remains to be paid.

 

[WesternLancer]

OP needs to read the railcard faqs and t and c’ on the railcard website. Not the first case on here of confusion about the railcard use time rules. Was one v recently iirc.

 

[island]

I’ve responded with a copy of my current railcard which was active since September 2023, then included an email of the digital download for my railcard the previous year. Hopefully they don’t just ignore/miss this as I had sent my railcard on 27/05/24 being the day of the first email.

If it was for breaking the pre 10am rule, would the fine not be the difference in ticket costs rather than the cost of all 159 journeys?

You have not been issued a fine. Only a court can do this. You've been asked to pay a settlement. Where an invalid ticket is held, a settlement will not normally take account of the amount paid for invalid tickets.

You have dodged the question of whether you used a ticket before 10am on a weekday that had been discounted below £12, so I am going to assume that you have done this. If you are still doing this, you must stop, right away. The rules of the 26-30 Railcard, which you chose to tick to indicate your acceptance of when you purchased it, clearly state that a £12 minimum fare applies to use before 10am on weekdays.

 

[Account2255]

Not necessarily. The railway company may well be of the opinion that a railcard discounted ticket which is below the £12 minimum fare but still used before 10 a.m. wasn't ever valid, and so the full fare remains to be paid.

Would that also invalidate the return journey?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

the question of whether you used a ticket before 10am on a weekday that had been discounted below £12, so I am going to assume that you have done this. If you are still doing this, you must stop, right away. The rules of the 26-30 Railcard, which you chose to tick to indicate your acceptance of when you purchased it, clearly state that a £12 minimum fare applies to use before 10am on weekdays.

Although for future use, you should be able to buy a Stafford to Birmingham return for the £12 minimum i.e. if you are travelling before 10 you can get most of the discount - just not right down to £11.15.

 

[Account2255]

Although for future use, you should be able to buy a Stafford to Birmingham return for the £12 minimum i.e. if you are travelling before 10 you can get most of the discount - just not right down to £11.15.

I go from Penkridge (next station along) to Birmingham which with a railcard had taken this down to £8.30

 

[Watershed]

I’ve responded with a copy of my current railcard which was active since September 2023, then included an email of the digital download for my railcard the previous year. Hopefully they don’t just ignore/miss this as I had sent my railcard on 27/05/24 being the day of the first email.

If it was for breaking the pre 10am rule, would the fine not be the difference in ticket costs rather than the cost of all 159 journeys?

My view is that legally speaking, the 10am minimum fare rule (note it's not a blanket ban - just a minimum fare of £12) is a time restriction, and therefore you only owe the difference between the fare paid and the £12 minimum fare - or the undiscounted fare, if this is less than £12.

However, a lot of train companies seem to disagree with this and claim that such tickets are completely invalid if used before 10am, and that a brand new Anytime Single / Return must be bought for each instance. That may well be the basis on which WMT have calculated the amount they claim you owe them.

 

[Account2255]

You have not been issued a fine. Only a court can do this. You've been asked to pay a settlement. Where an invalid ticket is held, a settlement will not normally take account of the amount paid for invalid tickets.

You have dodged the question of whether you used a ticket before 10am on a weekday that had been discounted below £12, so I am going to assume that you have done this. If you are still doing this, you must stop, right away. The rules of the 26-30 Railcard, which you chose to tick to indicate your acceptance of when you purchased it, clearly state that a £12 minimum fare applies to use before 10am on weekdays.

Yes it was before 10am and will stop this. I didn’t think anything of it as other than the one, all the train operators would ask for my railcard then would move on. Then no issues getting through the train barriers at Birmingham new street.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Not necessarily. The railway company may well be of the opinion that a railcard discounted ticket which is below the £12 minimum fare but still used before 10 a.m. wasn't ever valid, and so the full fare remains to be paid.

Would that also invalidate the return journey?

Depends what time the return journey was made. Likely not valid if also before 10 a.m.

 

[Account2255]

Depends what time the return journey was made. Likely not valid if also before 10 a.m.

Return leg was always past 5pm

 

[Mcr Warrior]

My view is that legally speaking, the 10am minimum fare rule (note it's not a blanket ban - just a minimum fare of £12) is a time restriction, and therefore you only owe the difference between the fare paid and the £12 minimum fare - or the undiscounted fare, if this is less than £12.

However, a lot of train companies seem to disagree with this and claim that such tickets are completely invalid if used before 10am, and that a brand new Anytime Single / Return must be bought for each instance. That may well be the basis on which WMT have calculated the amount they claim you owe them.

In view of the amount of ££££ potentially at stake, might a specialist solicitor be able to successfully argue that only the difference in fares should actually now be paid?

 

[AlterEgo]

We're getting lost in the sauce here. Thanks, I guess in part to WMR's incompetence, they are treating this as a case of the OP being unable to present their railcard at the time of the stop. They are merely asking to see the OP's railcards. That's it.

 

[Account2255]

We're getting lost in the sauce here. Thanks, I guess in part to WMR's incompetence, they are treating this as a case of the OP being unable to present their railcard at the time of the stop. They are merely asking to see the OP's railcards. That's it.

I hope so. Will update when I hear more, thanks for everyone’s input

 

[WesternLancer]

Does the 26-30 railcard have a different morning time restriction in July and Augusta like the 16-25 Railcard does? Just to complicate and confuse matters further...

 

[methecooldude]

Does the 26-30 railcard have a different morning time restriction in July and Augusta like the 16-25 Railcard does? Just to complicate and confuse matters further...

Neither of them have a time restriction per se, they have a minimum fare.

But to answer your question, that's the core difference between the 2, the 26-30 doesn't have the July and August easement

 

[WesternLancer]

Neither of them have a time restriction per se, they have a minimum fare.

But to answer your question, that's the core difference between the 2, the 26-30 doesn't have the July and August easement

Thanks for clarifying

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Yes it was before 10am and will stop this. I didn’t think anything of it as other than the one, all the train operators would ask for my railcard then would move on. Then no issues getting through the train barriers at Birmingham new street.

We've had discussions on previous threads around this, being that the TTK scanners WMR/LNWR use will flag that a railcard has been used, it won't flag up that minimum fare hasn't been paid, therefore it's quite commonly missed during ticket checks. I don't think ticket price shows on digital tickets either unlike paper ones.

Conductors who do notice can only allow you to purchase a new ticket as I don't believe an excess exists for minimum fare, happy to be corrected on this if incorrect. Or they will flag to the digital team which is what seems to have happened in your case.

Barriers at New St would also not flag it for the same reason, if set to flag any railcards then it wouldn't let you through but for a minimum fare issue it would open.

Not sure how others feel, but I would be tempted to offer to pay the fare and admin for the time you have been flagged for but suggest that every other time your ticket was scanner by the conductor on board and allowed to travel. Therefore you felt you had their permission to travel on that ticket for all other occasions.

 

[AlterEgo]

We've had discussions on previous threads around this, being that the TTK scanners WMR/LNWR use will flag that a railcard has been used, it won't flag up that minimum fare hasn't been paid, therefore it's quite commonly missed during ticket checks. I don't think ticket price shows on digital tickets either unlike paper ones.

Conductors who do notice can only allow you to purchase a new ticket as I don't believe an excess exists for minimum fare, happy to be corrected on this if incorrect. Or they will flag to the digital team which is what seems to have happened in your case.

Barriers at New St would also not flag it for the same reason, if set to flag any railcards then it wouldn't let you through but for a minimum fare issue it would open.

Not sure how others feel, but I would be tempted to offer to pay the fare and admin for the time you have been flagged for but suggest that every other time your ticket was scanner by the conductor on board and allowed to travel. Therefore you felt you had their permission to travel on that ticket for all other occasions.

But the company aren't even asking about this.

They are saying the OP failed to produce a railcard and are asking for evidence of this and/or other railcards. They have made no allegation about minimum fares. They're basically asking about 159 incidents of having a railcard discounted fare but no railcard to substantiate it.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

But the company aren't even asking about this.

They are saying the OP failed to produce a railcard and are asking for evidence of this and/or other railcards. They have made no allegation about minimum fares. They're basically asking about 159 incidents of having a railcard discounted fare but no railcard to substantiate it.

Perhaps the wrong reason was entered when challenged then as the OP stated they do have a railcard (even if used incorrectly). Clearly responding with proof of railcard should be enough to rectify this issue, unsure why this wasn't picked up on the 1st response to their email.

 

[AlterEgo]

Perhaps the wrong reason was entered when challenged then as the OP stated they do have a railcard (even if used incorrectly). Clearly responding with proof of railcard should be enough to rectify this issue, unsure why this wasn't picked up on the 1st response to their email.

I think some wires have been crossed somewhere, yes. Given the number of purchases they may be asking to see previous railcards too.

 

[Account2255]

Hi All, after submitting my railcard I’ve now heard back regarding this being used before 10am and that they are asking for £1,552. Any advice on my next steps. Presumably wanting to get a solicitor involved?