Second digital fraud email - £1,500+ fine?

[Account2255]

On what grounds would you think the settlement is unfair? It's important you have that clear in your head if you are going to go down the route of disputing the matter.

Personally I would just ignore the email. They are out of time for the offence you were stopped and the nature of these offences makes it difficult to mount a case where travel is not proven but merely implied.

Have you, at any point, admitted to travelling on any of these other tickets before the relevant time restriciton?

For having to buy a full return ticket instead of the saving made on the rail cars, or buying a full return journey.

I’ve not admitted to travelling in restricted times but it seems they have this data available from Trainline (although doesn’t show me this data). 40-50% of the time my ticket would get scanned by the ticket inspector but the barriers were always closed so would have been scanned at that point.

It seems they are out of time for when I was stopped, but the last train ticket using my railcard before 10am was end of May. It’s more the risk of fraud that is worrying me.

Would it be a mistake to reach out to someone in the WMT team to hold my hands up and say I’m looking to make a reasonable settlement and mention whether the difference in train fares or even the return journeys can be considered?

 

[WesternLancer]

Would it be a mistake to reach out to someone in the WMT team to hold my hands up and say I’m looking to make a reasonable settlement and mention whether the difference in train fares or even the return journeys can be considered?

I personally think that if you word it diplomatically enough that is not an unreasonable question to ask - (but you would have to include something explicit that says you feel it would be reasonable for them to seek the difference in the ticket sum owed as per @Watershed 's helpful calculations and detailed reply, and ask them why they are seeking the full sum not the balance owed as a result of you understanding the rules of your Railcard- and nothing in your reply to them should risk antagonising them at all.)

But if the consequences of this is career limiting for you then I have to say that even if you do have to pay them in the region of circa £1000 more than you feel might be owed, then over the course of a working period of a few years and your earning potential, that is going to be small compared with lost earnings if you had to end your job or chosen career as a result of any fall out from this.

I can see from where you are this is a tricky call to make.

 

[Hadders]

I agree with @Watershed's excellent analysis.

I think there are legitimate reasons to challenge the settlement amount but doing so is a high risk strategy. The danger is they could withdraw the settlement offer and prosecute you. I don't think they would be able to prosecute you for the incident on 19th December 2023 as they're out of time but it is possible that they could prosecute you for one of the subsequent incidents, especially if your ticket was scanned.

If you want to negotiate the settlement then I suggest using a solicitor as they will be better placed to negotiate. The problem is the solicitor's costs is highly likely to be more than the potential saving in settlement cost.

I'm inclined to agree with @WesternLancer that if you cannot risk a criminal record then it might be worth paying up to settle the matter. Over a few years, given earnings potential, it's a relatively small sum.

 

[Tevion539]

We've had discussions on previous threads around this, being that the TTK scanners WMR/LNWR use will flag that a railcard has been used, it won't flag up that minimum fare hasn't been paid, therefore it's quite commonly missed during ticket checks. I don't think ticket price shows on digital tickets either unlike paper ones.

Whilst I can't speak for TTK scanners with a degree of confidence, STAR Mobile scanners on the other hand do show the price. I don't see any reason why TTK shouldn't for that matter, I suspect they pull the same data. Happy to be corrected though.

In any case, the conductor should be vigilant and should check the price before flagging tickets.

 

[methecooldude]

Whilst I can't speak for TTK scanners with a degree of confidence, STAR Mobile scanners on the other hand do show the price. I don't see any reason why TTK shouldn't for that matter, I suspect they pull the same data. Happy to be corrected though.

In any case, if the conductor should be vigilant and should check the price before flagging tickets.

TTK shows the price, I think what SCDR was referring to is the price not being visible on the e-ticket itself, unlike a paper ticket.

 

[Skymonster]

Personally I would just ignore the email. They are out of time for the offence you were stopped and the nature of these offences makes it difficult to mount a case where travel is not proven but merely implied.

Have you, at any point, admitted to travelling on any of these other tickets before the relevant time restriciton?

TOCs are known to monitor this forum. The OP has admitted here in this thread to making journeys having paid a fare that was invalid at the time of travel. While the OP has not provided their real name, it won’t involve rocket science for the TOC to connect this thread with a specific case as a specific number of trips has been mentioned - and that connection might be all the proof that is needed, given that some trips have been made in the last six months.

 

[Watershed]

TTK shows the price, I think what SCDR was referring to is the price not being visible on the e-ticket itself, unlike a paper ticket.

The price is still visible on e-tickets (towards the bottom for PDFs) - it's just not as prominent as on paper tickets.