Second Appeal Advice

[clarkhf]

Hey all,

On Halloween weekend I had a disastrous journey home on the Sunday. Phone completely died between leaving my friends house and getting to Stratford. I jumped on the next available train back to Essex, put my phone on charge and was on Trainline buying my ticket when the inspector came round. She was nice and understanding but of course, still issued the penalty fare. I explained it was my first ever offence and I had no other way of getting home without getting on the train to charge my phone (I no longer carry a wallet, just Apple Pay), but she said it makes no difference.

I commute into London Liverpool Street Monday-Friday for work and always buy my return tickets (I sent screenshots of this in my first appeal but it made no difference) -- I appealed explaining about the lack of charge and safety concern about getting home and it was rejected 'A ticket is evidence of permission to make a rail journey and it is the passenger's responsibility to have sufficient charge on their mobile phone, their m ticket activated and to keep it safe.'

I'm wondering now if there is genuinely any point of a second appeal and if so, if anybody had any advice for what I could include to help that appeal? I am aware that I took the risk by getting on the train and am of course at fault for not having a charged phone or my wallet with me, but it was an unfortunate, honest incident.

Any guidance on a second appeal would be appreciated!

 

[WesternLancer]

Hey all,

On Halloween weekend I had a disastrous journey home on the Sunday. Phone completely died between leaving my friends house and getting to Stratford. I jumped on the next available train back to Essex, put my phone on charge and was on Trainline buying my ticket when the inspector came round. She was nice and understanding but of course, still issued the penalty fare. I explained it was my first ever offence and I had no other way of getting home without getting on the train to charge my phone (I no longer carry a wallet, just Apple Pay), but she said it makes no difference.

I commute into London Liverpool Street Monday-Friday for work and always buy my return tickets (I sent screenshots of this in my first appeal but it made no difference) -- I appealed explaining about the lack of charge and safety concern about getting home and it was rejected 'A ticket is evidence of permission to make a rail journey and it is the passenger's responsibility to have sufficient charge on their mobile phone, their m ticket activated and to keep it safe.'

I'm wondering now if there is genuinely any point of a second appeal and if so, if anybody had any advice for what I could include to help that appeal? I am aware that I took the risk by getting on the train and am of course at fault for not having a charged phone or my wallet with me, but it was an unfortunate, honest incident.

Any guidance on a second appeal would be appreciated!

Hi and welcome

I don't really think there is much point to a 2nd appeal (unless you need more time to save up the £50 penalty fare at the prompt payment discounted rate) sadly. But doing an appeal at stage 1 has the benefit of preventing them prosecuting you for not having a ticket before commencing your journey, should such a risk emerge for any reason (unlikely really)

Penalty Fare experts might be able to suggest things you could do - esp if the paperwork you were given for the PF has errors in it (so you should upload copies of everything including your 1st appeal and the response, as well as the original PF slip - with all personal details and ref numbers blanked out, so experts can check it).

Basically an appeal here is not an 'appeal to their better nature' eg on the basis that you usually pay etc but your phone let you down so you could not buy before boarding - which is the rule - it has to be an Appeal based on the fact that the PF was wrongly / incorrectly issued - and this is not such a reason.

Obv the lesson to take away is don't rely on technology when you are out and about - take a wallet too with a a bit of hard cash / a bank card in it - but you don't need me to tell you that now.

 

[clarkhf]

Appreciate your quick reply and politeness!

 

[AlterEgo]

You've boarded a train without a valid ticket, so the Penalty Fare was issued for a proper reason.

You may have a technical angle of appeal based on how the notice was completed. If you post the notice with your details obscured we can see if any mistakes have been made.

 

[furlong]

So where did you begin your journey and if it wasn't Stratford, did you touch in there before you say the phone died? What time was this?

 

[clarkhf]

Sat on the train from Wandsworth all the way to Stratford (its long!) reading my book (and yes touched in there) By the time I had got to Stratford my phone had died. This was 2 in the afternoon

 

[AlterEgo]

Sat on the train from Wandsworth all the way to Stratford (its long!) reading my book (and yes touched in there) By the time I had got to Stratford my phone had died. This was 2 in the afternoon

So you touched in, and then tried to buy a ticket? Why? Where did you touch out? Did you touch out anywhere?

 

[clarkhf]

I didn't get the chance to touch out because my phone had died. Needed a ticket from Stratford back to my hometown in Essex which is why I tried to buy a ticket to that destination once on the train with access to a charging port

 

[John R]

(I no longer carry a wallet, just Apple Pay), but she said it makes no difference.

You won't the first person we've seen on here to rely solely on their phone, and I'm sure you won't be the last. I suspect it's a generational thing - those of us over a certain age wouldn't think of not carrying a wallet or at least a bank card on our person.

As others have said, unfortunately it's no excuse, so I think you will just have to suck it up and think of it as a lesson learnt, other than if the angle @AlterEgo is pursuing which I've just seen as I write this (and I think I know what it is) might be of any help to you.

 

[clarkhf]

Thanks John for your kind words -- definitely a generational thing as my dad was horrified that I never go out with a bank card, but lesson learnt -- I will be taking one with me at all times now!

 

[Cuthbert]

Thanks John for your kind words -- definitely a generational thing as my dad was horrified that I never go out with a bank card, but lesson learnt -- I will be taking one with me at all times now!

Just need that Penalty Fare posted with details and ref number redacted.
There might be a mistake on it and that you can appeal against as @AlterEgo has mentioned in post #4

 

[furlong]

So what station was the end of the journey? What was the stopping pattern of the train you got on at Stratford? (We can work this out from the time on the penalty notice if need be.) Which operator issued the penalty?

In other words, your ticket was potentially valid up to a certain point on the train you were on, albeit by that point unpresentable.

 

[Hadders]

A few comments and observations to ad to what has already been said:

Many phones will continue to work for for payments after the battery has died. With Apple you have to have 'express mode' turned on for this to work. It wouldn't help trying to buy a ticket on your phoen but you could've used the phone to touch in/out or to buy a ticket at a ticket machine or ticket office

I don't think an appeal will succeed but if you do appeal it 'stops the clock' on the 21-days you have to pay the Penalty Fare at the reduced rate. This would allow you more time to find the money if this is an issue for you.

Finally, think of this as a bit of a life lesson. I must admit I've got used to relying on my phone much more these days but whenever I go out I like to make sure I've got at ;east one physical bank card with me and some 'emergency cash'. A £20 note will suffice for most purposes. Stick them in the back of your phone case and you still only have your phone to carry with you.

 

[Haywain]

Stick them in the back of your phone case and you still only have your phone to carry with you.

Or put them somewhere else and then you won't be stuffed if you lose your phone!

 

[Hadders]

Or put them somewhere else and then you won't be stuffed if you lose your phone!

I knew someone would say that! You are of course correct, but many people don't want the 'faff' of having to carry more than one item, and my advice is probably a reasonable compromise for most situations.

It would be interesting to know @clarkhf thoughts....