Seaside specials

[Be3G]

That's exactly what we do: form half a plan for a day trip the night before, then wake up the next morning, see how we feel and what the weather's like, and if everything's conducive to a nice day out we jump on a train and off we go. Did that over the bank holiday weekend just gone for a day trip to Broadstairs, and lovely it was too. We never go on holidays but enjoy a few such short-notice day trips a year.

There is, admittedly, Southern's money back (née rainy day) guarantee which can help in situations like this if you need to order tickets online (e.g. if the ticket office will be closed and the machines don't sell the tickets you want), but it's still a bit of a faff arranging a refund.

 

[tbtc]

Surely it is absolute basic common sense that any destination that has a significant seasonal peak - in this case holidaymakers to seaside towns - needs a substantially strengthened timetable/larger trains in the holiday periods

If the internet has taught me anything (and it probably hasn't) then it's to be wary of people who describe their arugment as "common sense".

You could argue that (you later quoted example of) Scarborough "needs" very long trains/ extra services on a handful of weekends, but is that justification for the railway to provide it?

However, you could equally argue that Scarborough "needs" the A64 to be fully dual carriageway (or motorway?) with grade separated junctions so that the huge numbers of "holidaymakers" (I hate that word) can get there?

Does demand during the rest of the year justify this though? No.

But while this used to take place as a matter of course, apparently this is simply beyond the capability of a modern railway, which now runs exactly the same service on a blazing hot bank holiday, or whole of August, as on a wet Wednesday in February.

Can you imagine if private enterprises in say, Scarborough, ran their businesses on the same lines? "Oh, my hotel is half empty from October to May; how uneconomic - I think I'll halve its size."

"But what are you going to do when all the holidaymakers come?"

"Oh, they can all share rooms with each other, or maybe some can sleep on the landing or in the broom cupboard. If they vow never ever to repeat this experience, or we have to turn them away, well, never mind, eh?"

You base your supply on the average demand for the year, smoothing over peaks/ troughs - any business does. Would your fictional hotel be able to afford to keep dozens/ hundreds of empty rooms for 90% of the year?

Equally, when we can't guarantee every commuter a seat on the daily rush hours (which are a lot more simple to predict) then why do people think we have the spare resources to keep stock specifically for summer holiday trains?

 

[HSTEd]

If we had winter destinations to go to then maybe we could justify having special summer trains and special winter trains.

But we don't have Alpine standard ski resorts to run trains to.

 

[87015]

You base your supply on the average demand for the year, smoothing over peaks/ troughs - any business does. Would your fictional hotel be able to afford to keep dozens/ hundreds of empty rooms for 90% of the year?

Equally, when we can't guarantee every commuter a seat on the daily rush hours (which are a lot more simple to predict) then why do people think we have the spare resources to keep stock specifically for summer holiday trains?

But the spare stock is there at weekends, or at least some with commuter sets unused - it is just in the wrong place/colour/safety case and there isn't the will on the modern railway to get it out.

How many LM units sit spare on TS all weekend, given the Snow Hill lines are are single sets vice pairs midweek? DMU sets from Bimingham used to reach all sorts of places on summer Saturdays. That didn't require extra assets, just a joined up railway.

 

[tbtc]

But the spare stock is there at weekends, or at least some with commuter sets unused - it is just in the wrong place/colour/safety case and there isn't the will on the modern railway to get it out.

How many LM units sit spare on TS all weekend, given the Snow Hill lines are are single sets vice pairs midweek? DMU sets from Bimingham used to reach all sorts of places on summer Saturdays. That didn't require extra assets, just a joined up railway.

Most of the "spare stock" at weekends is EMU, which wouldn't help for most of the seaside destinations being talked about on this thread.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Traditional week long holidays in the UK are a dying industry it would appear.

With the pressures on family budgets becoming more and more to the fore, there are still a good number of coach operators, such as Shearings, Alfa Travel, etc, who still offer 5 or 7 day holidays in Britain with the travel and hotel costs built into the price, that seem very well patronised at present.

Butlins are a name that were synonymous with chalet-style "hi-di-hi" cheap and cheerful family holidays in days of yore, but when we were in Bognor Regis at the end of April, a view of the brand-new hotel building that Butlins built there shows that that company still sees a future in British holidays with a much better standard of facilities.

That being said, we used the Royal Norfolk Hotel as our touring base for the five days we were in West Sussex....

 

[jon0844]

As I am sure more people either now drive or would wake up in the morning and decide a day trip on the basis of the weather, I'd think the best that can be done is that a TOC serving known tourist hotspots uses data from the Met Office to perhaps strengthen trains when there's good weather forecast.

Clearly even if the weather changes during that day, services to take people back are equally strengthened!

Otherwise, perhaps TOCs should be more proactive in encouraging people to book tickets in advance so they can see what sort of demand there is in advance. Even operators running trains without reserved seating could get a good idea if they came up with a promotion on its own site, perhaps including some sort of discount vouchers or something with it.

 

[Condor7]

The timetables of yesteryear were crammed with SO (Saturdays Only) services, which could be deemed as 'specials' which took holiday makers to and from their holiday destinations.
I don't see many SO's nowadays.

This got me thinking, were older timetable Monday to Saturday?
If so that is why there would be plenty of SO's.

Today's timetable are Monday to Friday, with Saturday listed separately, I guess this would negate the need for SO's.

 

[scarby]

If the internet has taught me anything (and it probably hasn't) then it's to be wary of people who describe their arugment as "common sense".

You could argue that (you later quoted example of) Scarborough "needs" very long trains/ extra services on a handful of weekends, but is that justification for the railway to provide it?

What I would suggest in Scarborough's case would be an extra unit to shuttle between the bay platform in York and Scarborough, Mondays-Saturdays from the beginning of June to the end of Sepetmber. This simple measure would greatly strengthen the service - by 5 services a day in each direction - if you had departures say, from York at 09.10, 11.10, 13.10, 15.10 and 17.10, and from Scarborough at 10.10, 12.10, 14.10, 16.10 and 18.10.

In fact, for several years not too long ago there was something roughly along these lines and then some genius took it away.

 

[transmanche]

Good to see that Northern have strengthened services to Whitby today, by making them double units.

 

[sarahj]

There was a seaside special in Brighton today, formed of two 57's and some westcoast stock

On Summer sats we do a london student special from Eastbourne to Victoria (sometimes via Brighton) for the vast amounts of euro students heading to london. Its formed by a 442, it runs non stop, but its slow, taking over 2 hours plus.

Anyone remember the holidaymaker services. I took one in the very early 80's from Newcastle to Blackpool, ran almost non stop. Was formed of mk2 comp stock and the buffet was a hot water earn and some cans, sweets and sarnies in the brake van!!!. Ran via Manchester Victoria and i think hauled by a 40.

 

[tsr]

There was a seaside special in Brighton today, formed of two 57's and some westcoast stock

Just don't you go calling it a summer special! It's been tipping it down this afternoon around some places on the local network...

 

[IanXC]

What I would suggest in Scarborough's case would be an extra unit to shuttle between the bay platform in York and Scarborough, Mondays-Saturdays from the beginning of June to the end of Sepetmber.

The Saturday services starting on 22 June include the following shuttles:

1T84 York 0927 Scarborough 1015
1T85 Scarborough 1030 York 1119
1T86 York 1129 Scarborough 1214
1T87 Scarborough 1230 York 1315 (Non Stop)
1T88 York 1328 Scarborough 1413 (Non Stop)

(All runs SO from 22/06/2013 to 07/09/2013)

I'm not entirely sure what the unit coming off 1T88 does next, but it terminates in a platform which sees no other services all day, so I would suspect it strengthens a later service.

 

[Beveridges]

I bet the Sheffield to Portsmouth overnighter was history by the mid 1980s. If it made a comeback today it would probably be a PACER!!

Now that would be Luxery

 

[tbtc]

What I would suggest in Scarborough's case would be an extra unit to shuttle between the bay platform in York and Scarborough, Mondays-Saturdays from the beginning of June to the end of Sepetmber. This simple measure would greatly strengthen the service - by 5 services a day in each direction - if you had departures say, from York at 09.10, 11.10, 13.10, 15.10 and 17.10, and from Scarborough at 10.10, 12.10, 14.10, 16.10 and 18.10.

In fact, for several years not too long ago there was something roughly along these lines and then some genius took it away.

Sounds simple.

Except that TPE are struggling with loads on their "core" routes (three coaches from Newcastle/Leeds to Manchester/ Liverpool, two coaches on some Sheffield - Manchester services), so I really don't know where they have this spare unit sat around six days a week.

Not so simple.

 

[soil]

That being said, we used the Royal Norfolk Hotel as our touring base for the five days we were in West Sussex....

We have stayed in the Ocean and Shoreline hotels at Butlins Bognor Regis (not stayed in the new Wave - the Ocean is better FWIW, although you are further from the sea), and both were of a good standard, and with easy access to the car park for touring West Sussex, and we paid very little. You don't have to do any hi-de-hi stuff at all.

Try that at Centreparcs, where you are basically imprisoned in a plastic forest.

We paid £75/night in 2011, and £95/night (this was not the cheapest room available) in 2012, which was very reasonable for a family room. (Much more expensive during school holidays though).

 

[yorksrob]

Sounds simple.

Except that TPE are struggling with loads on their "core" routes (three coaches from Newcastle/Leeds to Manchester/ Liverpool, two coaches on some Sheffield - Manchester services), so I really don't know where they have this spare unit sat around six days a week.

Not so simple.

Possibly one of those disadvantages of the TPE/Northern split.

Whilst TPE will understandedly have all their available units on the core all day, it's not inconceivable that Northern might have a spare unit to strengthen peak services around York that could be diverted to such a use during the day.

 

[tbtc]

Possibly one of those disadvantages of the TPE/Northern split.

Whilst TPE will understandedly have all their available units on the core all day, it's not inconceivable that Northern might have a spare unit to strengthen peak services around York that could be diverted to such a use during the day.

I agree with you about the problems caused by the split (I think it was YorkshireBear who said that it "cost" three units, because of the lack of inter-operability?).

If there's anything sat "spare" at York it tends to be a Pacer in the "Harrogate" platforms - it may be that (in an ideal world where we didn't have this TOC "split") this could be utilised during the day for a couple of trips to the seaside - good thinking - though I don't know how "spare" it really is or for how long.

 

[yorksrob]

I must admit, I‘m not an expert on scheduling around York, but you can sometimes see the odd unit parked up in the south facing bays.