Seaside specials

[YorkshireBear]

Is it time these were reintroduced? Noticed on social media lots of seaside trains leaving people behind.

 

[HSTEd]

Problem is the railway isn't very good at running specials these days.

Unusual stock and staff movements raise hell with the very highly optimised timetables they run with now, and all the paperwork for clearing for various rolling stock would be a nightmare.
You can't just pull a random LoadHaul (for example) crew and have them drive their regular traction with a bunch of Mark 1s you just had lying around. (I am ofcourse referring to pairs of Class 20s with rakes of Mark 1s, which seemed to be a staple of this traffic).

 

[IanXC]

Is it time these were reintroduced? Noticed on social media lots of seaside trains leaving people behind.

I think the most that can be delivered with today's railway is strengthening. Northern don't seem to have started this year, but last year on Sundays and Bank Holidays a significant number of services on the Sheffield-Scarborough route were strengthened as 4 vehicles vice 2. Plus EMT make a good go of using longer Meridians on Scarborough runs, and HSTs in Lincolnshire.

I suppose that kind of work doesn't make headlines as it isn't an extra service, and its not people being left behind either.

 

[High Dyke]

As already mentioned it's usually a case of strengthening services. Gone are the day where coaching stock was available at larger stations that could be added to a service or even a provide an additional service if a crew and loco were also available.

In the profiteering world of railways today it's sometimes a bonus if a TOC has enough stock available for a 'normal' service!

 

[Mintona]

I have heard that there may be some summer specials from London Victoria down to Margate, Broadstairs and Ramsgate this year. However, this may be the usual tosh rumours you hear

 

[Goatboy]

Putting on extra stock at short notice costs money and generates nil additional revenue. In a railway operated as a public service this is not a problem. In a railway operated to maximise shareholder value this is an unacceptable expense.

Blame the Railways Act (1993).

 

[30907]

It's not so long ago that there was a summer-holiday Kent Coast extra from Blackfriars or Victoria or Peckham Rye via Catford (it varied) which gave a few inner-suburban stations a direct train to Ramsgate (and another Cannon St-Hastings). Both were basically year-round ECS to the respective depot so the cost of running them as passenger trains was extremely marginal.
No sign of equivalents - nor the ECS - in summer 2013 WTTs (which are online BTW, unlike the PTT).

 

[PHILIPE]

TOCs will generally only organise anything extra unless there is money in it for them

 

[telstarbox]

Presumably the demand for such trains is hugely weather-dependent, so TOCs could organise a special train and then find no-one uses it because it's tipping it down on the day!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think the 'day-tripper' market could be better exploited by some of the charter operators i.e. promoting trips based on the destination rather than what's hauling it. There's a fair few specials that run for the Lincoln christmas market so there may be some degree of custom for such services. Needs someone with deep pockets to test the water though!

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

Not quite a seaside special, but South West Trains are stopping their Waterloo to Dorking services at Box Hill and Westhumble station (in Surrey) on all three days of the current Bank Holiday weekend. See: http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/uploads/130504boxhillbhw.pdf .

(BXW is normally only served by SWT in the weekday peaks, but has become increasingly popular since the Olympic Road cycle race came over Box Hill last year. There are a number of National Trust properties (including Box Hill) within walking distance of the station.)

Out of interest does anyone know how SWT recoup the costs of stopping at BXW on BH weekends? Is it a case of plugging the extra services into the orcats algorithm, or are these extra stops funded directly by a 3rd party (e.g. Surrey County Council)?

 

[Southern]

The Seaside 465:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W45130/2013/07/26/advanced

Doesn't look to be a return working though.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The trouble is "everything costs" - an additional call = a bill to a TOC depending on train length and no of vehicles on the train(s) , spare weekend commuter stock might end costing hire charges if you broach the mileage bands , variable track access.

In BR days (sorry) - it was a case of direct train crew costs + fuel / electric traction + something for cleaning , advertising and admin. Much , much more straightforward and there were cash flow / revenue incentives for getting extra business on the margin.

 

[martinsh]

I have heard that there may be some summer specials from London Victoria down to Margate, Broadstairs and Ramsgate this year. However, this may be the usual tosh rumours you hear

It will run via HS1 and all the passengers will be PFed for not having valid tickets !

 

[30mog]

Many my age love trains because they were the saviour of families who didn't have cars in the 1970s. And there was no shortage of such.

Bank holiday Monday 9am was rush hour at Sheffield. Specials to Cleethorpes, Skegness & Blackpool in quick succession. I would say that in the 1970s 90% of the time my family travelled by train was an excursion - with bargain basement tickets. Even then, trains were considered pricey otherwise. I can remember me & my dad going on a day trip to Edinburgh on a train that ran in conjunction with something called Merrymaker Club. The year, 1978 I think, the adult return fare £4.50!

It was a train that required normal fares but. I also have fond memories of an overnighter that ran from Sheffield on a Friday night during the summer months to Portsmouth Harbour to meet early morning ferry crossings to Ryde. It would return to Sheffield during the day laden with holidaymakers coming home. IT COULD BE FULL TO STANDING! As it hadn't occurred to some people it would be so busy. If you didn't reserve a seat it could be a very unenjoyable journey. We last used that train in 1978. On the occasion of the last journey home. Such was demand an extra train was laid on - all the carriages were 1st class! And I can recall the monthly return from Sheffield - Sandown being about £22. How my parents complained about this price!

Fact is. Many a seaside station had lots of sidings to stable these trains for the day. And nowadays the cheap excursion market has been integrated into a complex ticketing system including Advance tickets. We had a car in our family for the first time in 1979. We went abroad on holiday for the first time in 1981. I suspect many my age can tell a similar story. And I bet the Sheffield to Portsmouth overnighter was history by the mid 1980s. If it made a comeback today it would probably be a PACER!!

 

[johnnychips]

And I bet the Sheffield to Portsmouth overnighter was history by the mid 1980s.

I can remember getting a Fridays only overnighter from Donny to Plymouth in 1983. Not sure when the return ran. It was a long train, full without being standing.

 

[Eagle]

Crosscountry overnighters like that actually survived until about 2000 under Virgin XC. VXC at the time also ran summer specials to Weymouth, Margate and Newquay, only the last of which still survives.

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

GA are doing the loco hauled sets to Gt Yarmouth again using DRS 47's.

 

[williamus]

This is an incredibly evocative thread... the era of the 70's excursion! £3 or £4 (from memory) took you from Birmingham to Weymouth (via Bristol). Might be rose-coloured spectacles but there might even have been a pick up at Kings Norton. We also went on lots of other Sunday excursions to exotic locations such as Skeggy, not to mention York (my first trip to the NRM). Can't quite remember when they disappeared (early 80's?) but for me train travel was never quite the same again

 

[HSTEd]

Those were the days when these things could be justified on marginal-cost grounds, and the marginal costs of running otherwise idle rolling stock are very low.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In BR days (sorry) - it was a case of direct train crew costs + fuel / electric traction + something for cleaning , advertising and admin. Much , much more straightforward and there were cash flow / revenue incentives for getting extra business on the margin.

Indeed, in the Manchester area they ran a fully co-ordinated programme of weekly excursions under the title of "The Manchester Rail Travel Club" which ran from 1980 to 1984 and had a mailing list to all members with a newsletter fully detailing all the journeys (including mystery trips) to many destinations and some were for special days to air shows, flower shows, etc.

From stations in the Manchester region, our family travelled to destinations such as to Largs and to Southend, which were not part of the normal rail service links from the Manchester area. The prices were very reasonable indeed with very low child fares, so a family of four could travel at a reasonable price for a day-out.

 

[Condor7]

I am just trying to get my head around this.
Many on here are saying that under the modern system it is not possible to run seaside specials due to spare coaching stock and staff not being available.
However this appears to be one......

The Seaside 465:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W45130/2013/07/26/advanced

Doesn't look to be a return working though.

Or is there a special event those few days it runs, and if not does anyone know why it is running those days only?

Also Eagle says there is still a seaside special to Newquay, is that correct?

In the past where seaside specials always planned ahead and published in the working timetable, rather like leaf clearing trains are shown in the current timetable all year but only in fact run over a few months period in the autumn?

Finally is it ever possible for relief trains to be run these days, if a service is likely to be overcrowded for any reason not just for seaside specials?

 

[NSEFAN]

I am just trying to get my head around this.
Many on here are saying that under the modern system it is not possible to run seaside specials due to spare coaching stock and staff not being available.
However this appears to be one......

Or is there a special event those few days it runs, and if not does anyone know why it is running those days only?

Also Eagle says there is still a seaside special to Newquay, is that correct?

In the past where seaside specials always planned ahead and published in the working timetable, rather like leaf clearing trains are shown in the current timetable all year but only in fact run over a few months period in the autumn?

Finally is it ever possible for relief trains to be run these days, if a service is likely to be overcrowded for any reason not just for seaside specials?

As people further up have said, everything is a cost on the modern railway. As such we don't tend to have rakes of rolling stock sitting around unused most of the time, as was the case with loco-hauled stock on BR. The result is that all the trains get worked harder, and they need downtime at weekends/offpeak for maintenance. Of course it's perfectly possible to push more trains into service on demand, but come Monday morning there's going to be a lot of unhappy commuters who find their trains are being cancelled because of breakdowns.

In an ideal world, there would be enough redundancy in the fleet to allow for short-term planning flexibility, but if the aim is to make profit then the companies in charge will only do the bare minimum. Whilst being prepared would be good customer service, the interests of the shareholders (and more importantly, the Treasury!) come before the passengers; to me it is perverse but that's how it works.

The Seaside Specials to Newquay are a historical service, which existed before privatisation. If a service already exists, it is politically difficult to get rid of it. I wouldn't expect a TOC to come up with such an initiative nowadays, unless they sat down and worked out that it will return extra profit. I believe that BR had some timetabled seaside extras, but occasionally there were one-off relief trains. I wasn't around at the time, so sadly I missed out on the experience!

In some cases, such as planned sport events where there are truly exceptional crowd levels, it does make good business sense to run more trains, since they will be pretty much guaranteed to be full and standing. Thus, the TOC makes more money by running more trains in this case. This requires however coordination between the events venues and the railways to make sure enough staff are on duty to run these extra trains on the required dates.

 

[williamus]

It's not just cost though, is it? In the 70's we had no car and little money and excursions were a good idea of fun for a wide spectrum of people (not just us). I'm not sure they are anymore.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In some cases, such as planned sport events where there are truly exceptional crowd levels, it does make good business sense to run more trains, since they will be pretty much guaranteed to be full and standing. Thus, the TOC makes more money by running more trains in this case. This requires however coordination between the events venues and the railways to make sure enough staff are on duty to run these extra trains on the required dates.

Look what happened to the service period during the time period of the recent London Olympic Games to note a recent such major sports event that carried on for a period of time.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

I've looked at some of the present railtours that could be attractive for normal families on a day out, but are somewhat expensive.I guess they do cost to run though. That said, I don't see why they can't do discounted family tickets like most theme parks, etc. do.

 

[HSTEd]

Essentially for Specials to be anywhere near viable, you need to be able to run your trainsets almost every day.

So you have to find winter and off-day destinations for them.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I will give you an example of costs - my next door neighbour - then a Headmaster - wanted to hire a 4 car 321 unit to take his school on a seaside outing - 100th anniversary of the school. I live in St Albans. This was 1997 , Brighton was not a runner - so I arranged a special from St Albans Abbey to Clacton (running in service on the branch) - I could square up the operating issues by training a driver and a conductor from Camden Rd to Clacton (all quite legal) . swopping the set on and off , clipping points at Watford Junction etc - all because I wanted this to happen.

The safety case for the one train had to be "bought" from EWS - it was over £500 and less than a £1000 .....the train ran , a good day was had by all (including the crew who enjoyed the rarity of a run down the GEML) - I lost money over it, but got lots of goodwill and a nice write up in the local paper.

Most managers would not have bothered.....

 

[Llanigraham]

ATW have run at least 2 "specials" to Barry Island today, due to increased loadings, so it can be done.

 

[PHILIPE]

At short notice but not pre-planned due to the volume of passengers.