Scotsman Train V Plane Challenge

[Failed Unit]

CityJet do have business class They published on the blog that they are going via LHR because that is the airport the majority of pax on that route use

Economy plus. some tocs in the south east should really rename thier first class product standard plus.

 

[Metroland]

Oh rb311. East Coast may argue it doesnt have a level playing field with the tax it's passengers pay for travel on it's services to subsidised other parts of the network.

Quite so, if it was a truly private operation it could keep a lot of that money it pays in premiums and pay that to shareholders or reduce fares more. What would happen it it was easyeastcoast is the smaller stations would close, booking offices would close, luggage would be paid for and it would all be pre-book.

If fact the airlines would be worse off, you could probably cut off 30 mins between London and Edinburgh, and the fares would probably come down as the 100% commercial companies concentrate on what pays. It'll be an the expense of much smaller places, who will then take to their cars or will no longer have a service, or by much slower buses (which never cut the mustard). Or perhaps there really is half wits that think Grantham-Doncaster, Peterborough-London, Edinburgh - Newcastle planes are coming soon, which will be just as convenient with the same frequency and will be running at 2000 at night 1/3 full.

Anyone that thinks running a commercial operations between significant population points at only times you can fill seats is the same as running off peak services at the back end of Scotland or Wiltshire, or to towns of 100,000 or less, because that's the service the public demand is either stupid, doesn't understand transport, or is a combination of the above. Though it doesn't stop people that ought to know better making spurious comparisons.

The average fare on the railway is £5, this has to tell you something about average distances and the market. Even the low cost airlines are 8 times that. British airways has more revenue that all the TOCs put together, for just 32 million passengers compared to 1.4 billion passengers.

Of course something that doesn't pay fuel tax, is full of highly paid people, highly polluting, and indirect subsidy to supporting airport infrastructure, PSO grants, subsidy to Airbus and Boeing, ATC, used mostly by people on above 44k per year pay tax.

I'm sick to death of people that do not understand transport or understand economics making such ridiculous comparisons, and I fully intend to treat them with idiocy they deserve. It's called public transport for a reason, because it's the service the public want to use, which is at times and some places that is not always commercially viable, especially when you have such imperfect competition and disparities in transport, we can't all drive or afford a car, or even want to do that, and besides there will never be enough space in the dense island to enable everyone to freely do that and already costs £23 billion in congestion, which more than pays for the alternatives.

 

[jon0844]

And, as some low cost airlines have proved, if the going gets tough - they just pull out. Suddenly, your low cost route from a local airport to another nice airport is history and you're either forced to fly from somewhere else, or use a much more expensive carrier.

At least, by and large, the train operators are required to run all the routes and can't just pull the plug for cost/political reasons.

 

[crewmeal]

Seems it all happened yesterday - who won?

 

[Failed Unit]

Seems it all happened yesterday - who won?

The train. But it was a little baised. The plane should have won by at least 30 mins.

I don't know if east coast had tweaked the Wifi, it is not as good as the blog suggests in my experience. Booking a slot in the restaurant? Go on departure or risk no food.

Taxi to the airport I would get lynched if a bus did the same route taking about the same time. A victory for rail but a little hollow. We all know flying is unpleasant because of the way airports treat passengers.

 

[Metroland]

Indeed, £5 to jump the queues, which ironically is rail's average fare!

One of the consequences of globalisation is the clash of cultures, with all the religious fundamentalists I can only see the situation getting worse with people wanting the blow them up over our heads.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Economy plus. some tocs in the south east should really rename thier first class product standard plus.

The plane blogger complained about finding it hard to book business class on the plane. That's because BA and BMI (who fly EDI-LHR) don't have business class. Calling it Economy Flexible (or whatever) means you avoid the higher rate of Business Class APD (while still offering your passengers lounge access, extra points, priorities etc).

Completely useless experiment; everyone knew the train would win because of the sponsor!

 

[At_traction]

J. Christ, this was more rigged than the HMS Victory!

First of all, what the heck was the whisky "as a corporate gift for a contact". Was the challenge about doing work while travelling and reaching an interview meeting (no whisky bribes accepted) or was being a corporation cross-country booze courier one of the tasks too? Thus conveniently detouring to baggage claim, with the applicable wait.

Wait indeed. 45 minutes to get from Edinburgh to airport security check queue, even with booze bo'tl drop off? The plane was above HTR half an hour early, but how good for the sponsors that the runway was "closed"(?). But perhaps the stellar performance by the airline had to be cancelled by the "inevitable" flight-connected delay...

And Heathrow instead of London City? A (even later-departing) 11:10 flight to LCY would have given an approx. 13:30 arrival at the destination. Leaving an extra half an hour for TfL delays to reach my bet of 29 minutes' advantage for plane...

The plane had arrived at 12:15-ish but the Heathrow Express departure the journo made was 13:35? Yeah, sure. I wonder what the problem with HX WiFi was, moreover.

No complaints about the PAD to LIV connection time, but 15 minutes to walk from LIV to the destination?! Even I have walked that same exact route in 10 minutes or so, with a 30-pound rucksack, a painful limp due to a knee that barely supported me after a thigh muscle gave way just after leaving Gherkin for LIV. And I also got lost to boot... And that guy took 15 minutes with a laptop and a booze bottle? :roll:

Bollocks I'd say. Make it a proper one, thank you.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Would be a good opportunity for BA, BA Cityexpress, BMI or CityJet to respond with their own plane v. train challenge

 

[Metroland]

Well I suppose it makes a change from those Top Gear races, which are most definitely biased from the so-called unbiased BBC.

I suspect the truth of the matter is there isn't much in it and it could go either way.

 

[At_traction]

Well I suppose it makes a change from those Top Gear races, which are most definitely biased from the so-called unbiased BBC.

Ehh? Top Gear is a car program which definitely makes the premise more than known, especially for anyone who's seen a few of those already. And at least they make the race episode scripts (for many) funny and entertaining, with the idiosyncratic humour and put-downs. Which one cannot say about this latest "race" - its lack of TG's silliness could make someone think that the race was in fact remotely true to life as well as "fair and unbiased"...

Would be a good opportunity for BA, BA Cityexpress, BMI or CityJet to respond with their own plane v. train challenge

Same with all Scotland-bound TOCs, then we could take an average of the results as the Final word.

 

[MCR247]

J. Christ, this was more rigged than the HMS Victory!

First of all, what the heck was the whisky "as a corporate gift for a contact". Was the challenge about doing work while travelling and reaching an interview meeting (no whisky bribes accepted) or was being a corporation cross-country booze courier one of the tasks too? Thus conveniently detouring to baggage claim, with the applicable wait.

Wait indeed. 45 minutes to get from Edinburgh to airport security check queue, even with booze bo'tl drop off? The plane was above HTR half an hour early, but how good for the sponsors that the runway was "closed"(?). But perhaps the stellar performance by the airline had to be cancelled by the "inevitable" flight-connected delay...

And Heathrow instead of London City? A (even later-departing) 11:10 flight to LCY would have given an approx. 13:30 arrival at the destination. Leaving an extra half an hour for TfL delays to reach my bet of 29 minutes' advantage for plane...

The plane had arrived at 12:15-ish but the Heathrow Express departure the journo made was 13:35? Yeah, sure. I wonder what the problem with HX WiFi was, moreover.

No complaints about the PAD to LIV connection time, but 15 minutes to walk from LIV to the destination?! Even I have walked that same exact route in 10 minutes or so, with a 30-pound rucksack, a painful limp due to a knee that barely supported me after a thigh muscle gave way just after leaving Gherkin for LIV. And I also got lost to boot... And that guy took 15 minutes with a laptop and a booze bottle? :roll:

Bollocks I'd say. Make it a proper one, thank you.

They used LHR instead of LCY because it is where most pax on the route use

 

[Failed Unit]

Although the airlines know people don't like Heathrow. Hence why ba is growing at city and not really doing much at Heathrow from Scotland. Heathrow and Gatwick will always be useful for connections.

City still has the perception of constant weather problems. Something it needs to educate passengers about. Other people just don't like small planes.

 

[At_traction]

They used LHR instead of LCY because it is where most pax on the route use

Including those with connections further and (the vast majority) economy fliers from other parts of the UK. But the premise of the competition was a business-minded meeting trip to the City, moreover with a business class flight ticket, so the more business-heavy LCY was even more of a correct choice.

 

[Failed Unit]

Remember as well I bet a lot of Heathrow pax are heading for the Thames valley. Look at all the companies based in reading alone now. For them Heathrow is the only choice.

 

[At_traction]

Remember as well I bet a lot of Heathrow pax are heading for the Thames valley. Look at all the companies based in reading alone now. For them Heathrow is the only choice.

That's true, but in this particular case the destination was a place better approachable from the southern (Gatwick) and eastern (London City) airports. Admittedly, with the HX connection, Heathrow is not as daft a proposition even for City as it would first seem. 15 minutes to PAD and then - well praying... and hoping that between the direct H&C or the Circle interchange connection, the taken choice doesn't have too bad delays and congestion. 25 mins max, one sit with the H&C.

But still, unhurriedly disembarking from a feeder jet, sitting all the way from the terminal to the City, travelling on an elevated line with visibility all around, admiring the old and emerging architecture of eastern London , all in about half the time as from Heathrow.
(This was a paid advertisement.)

 

[Greenback]

Top Gear is a programme about cars. When they have 'races', the car wins.

East Coast is a train company. When they sponsor a 'race', the train wins.

If BA or any other airline sponsored a race, who do you think would win?

Of course, it's biased, fixed or whatever you want to call it. You simply can't prove that a mode of transport is better than others for a UK jounrey, as it will be subjective depending on the traveller's budget, timings, departure point, destination as well as their own personal lieks and dislikes. I can't believe this thread has gone on for so long!

 

[Bittern]

Top Gear is a programme about cars. When they have 'races', the car wins.

Hammond once won a race on a bike, with Clarkson coming in second in a boat, Stig third via Public Transport, and May LAST with the car.

Although that's the only time I can recall.

 

[Greenback]

They must have run out of money and time to re shoot it then! Or it allowed them to boast that the contests weren't fixed!

 

[Metroland]

Although it's amazing how many people take 'Top Gear' seriously...(even if it is slightly tongue in cheek!).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-505788/Jeremy-Clarkson-Prime-Minister.html

I think all the 'race' was about it to prove the train is actually a viable option, and maybe not quite as slow city-city as some might imagine, that's all. It's certainly not worth anyone getting their knickers in a twist if it was slightly biased. Most news media IS biased. The only requiement by law in this country is for Radio and TV news bulletins to be non-biased, the rest can be as biased as you like, and they are, what's new.

On trains v airlines, the media are always harping on about train punctuality, yet bus and airline punctuality is NEVER mentioned, yet is worse. No wonder our 'airline professional' thinks they are crap, and he's not the only one that debates from things read in viewspapers.

All advertising is defiantly biased. No conspiracy, we live in a media world full of perception and opinions based on who knows, who, who has the biggest adversing budget, and the work of lobby groups, it just amazes me the most of the time just how many people see things are facts, as it's all part of the game.

 

[rb311]

On trains v airlines, the media are always harping on about train punctuality, yet bus and airline punctuality is NEVER mentioned, yet is worse. No wonder our 'airline professional' thinks they are crap, and he's not the only one that debates from things read in viewspapers.

You know metroland, you really spout a load of c**p. On a previous post you started firing off accusations that I knew nothing about economics nor transport.. You can't know that, you know nothing about me, and from most of your posts not a lot about anything else either.

Become a professional in something apart from trainspotting and then I will listen to you.

 

[Bittern]

They must have run out of money and time to re shoot it then! Or it allowed them to boast that the contests weren't fixed!

I think the car was made to be last as a joke because it was Captain Slow driving it. Personally, I found it hilarious when The Stig walked in, leaving May to be the last.

 

[Metroland]

You know metroland, you really spout a load of c**p. On a previous post you started firing off accusations that I knew nothing about economics nor transport.. You can't know that, you know nothing about me, and from most of your posts not a lot about anything else either.

Become a professional in something apart from trainspotting and then I will listen to you.

LOL

No further comment required. I'm not getting into a row with a 16 year old planespotter, life is too short.

 

[At_traction]

I can't believe this thread has gone on for so long!

Quite the contrary - this must be one of the few threads that actually has something for it to continue so long, namely the contest itself being carried out only now, this week. Or rather, the thread starter started it too early then...

I myself was only interested to see how much EC would eventually rig the seemingly "professional" competition to its advantage. Some "fair enough" timings but even more of some strange delays for the flier (as boringly blabbered in my previous post ) as a result. Most importantly, when you're going to the City of London as fast as possible with a business budget, you don't choose the most congested, farthest away airport with a cross-city journey to reach the destination... :roll:

But now the competition is over and soon this thread will be too. Perhaps.

 

[Failed Unit]

Even as someone who prefers the train to flying and knows the benefits all too well. I was also disappointed about the bias. Travellers fall into very distinct brackets. Cheap with baggage you go by rail so you can use rail cards even discounted fares for Children. Speed should be by air. Flexibilty rail wins again as even if you have a flexible air ticket if the plane is full you won't get on. At least you can stand on the train if you really want to travel earlier.

 

[Greenback]

Quite the contrary - this must be one of the few threads that actually has something for it to continue so long, namely the contest itself being carried out only now, this week. Or rather, the thread starter started it too early then...

I myself was only interested to see how much EC would eventually rig the seemingly "professional" competition to its advantage. Some "fair enough" timings but even more of some strange delays for the flier (as boringly blabbered in my previous post ) as a result. Most importantly, when you're going to the City of London as fast as possible with a business budget, you don't choose the most congested, farthest away airport with a cross-city journey to reach the destination... :roll:

But now the competition is over and soon this thread will be too. Perhaps.

What I meant was that there has been a lot of argument over speed and time, when most people will consider more than just speed. To try and prove that rail is better than air, or vice versa, just on the fact that it might be a bit quicker is a bit futile, as price, frequency and even comfort still matter to a lot of people.

We should just accept that the challenge is not a scientific experiment; it's a bit of marketing that will not prove anything one way or the other. It is designed tor aise the rail profile on that particular route - if I lived in Edinburgh the result wouldn't influence me at all as I would still look at each journey I had to make on it's merits!

 

[Metroland]

I was also disappointed about the bias.

Media bias TOWARDS rail? God Lord, I shall have to put that one in my diary. Surely all trains are late, they are unsafe, overpriced, nobody cares, certainly the staff that are always on strike. Which is a travesty, as they are dead easy to run, and everyone is overpaid, sits around in offices all day playing cards and with Hornby trains, when they are in working just 2 days of the week. This is when they are not out taking train numbers (because of course all enthusiasts do that), and it's only enthusiasts that run railways, which is why they exist. They really ought to find something more cultural and intellectual like plane spotting, football or binge drinking.

I've been reading all this in the Daily Mail, Sun, Daily Star, seen it on the TV, and that's what my mates say down the pub, so it must be right.

 

[Failed Unit]

Media bias TOWARDS rail? God Lord, I shall have to put that one in my diary. Surely all trains are late, they are unsafe, overpriced, nobody cares, certainly the staff that are always on strike. Which is a travesty, as they are dead easy to run, and everyone is overpaid, sits around in offices all day playing cards and with Hornby trains, when they are in working just 2 days of the week. This is when they are not out taking train numbers (because of course all enthusiasts do that), and it's only enthusiasts that run railways, which is why they exist. They really ought to find something more cultural and intellectual like plane spotting, football or binge drinking.

I've been reading all this in the Daily Mail, Sun, Daily Star, seen it on the TV, and that's what my mates say down the pub, so it must be right.

I know what you mean, but it just gives the airlines chance to hit back, "it was not realisitic because they had to check in a bag and no-one does that." If they were going to do the checking in of the bag they should have tried to get an overnight involved as well

It is like when people quote they can't afford to travel by rail between Edinburgh and London they will always compare the cheapest airline ticket (ignoring the fact you need to get to the airport in the first place) and compare it with the walk on rail fare. It is £108 return from Edinburgh to London, you can do it for £70 (incluing baggage etc with Easy Jet). So you are right articles are normally heavily baised against rail. They certainly highlighted the cost of the taxi and HEX in this article, although some may say that they should have used the bus and tube.

I think one of the main reason rail is increasing its share is the leisure market, the AP's are reasonable (and apply between local stations) If you have a child under 5 it is free (airlines charge even when the child is under 2 and is sitting on your knee). Between 5 and 15 you get a discount, and you can get a family and friends railcard. I challenge anyone to get a family of 4 between Edinburgh and London for £60 total cost by air, including 2 large bags and a buggy!

On the other side, unless you like the sleeper at the moment you can't safely get to a meeting before 1030 by rail. The sleeper does take some beating on the price, £166 first class single, again you don't find many airlines charging less on the ticket alone for the "red eyes"

 

[Metroland]

I know what you mean, I suspect competing interests will always cry foul anyway, even the starting points can be deemed as bias. Which is why I maintain my position that it depends, and X is not better then Y in any case and it really is here nor there as there is so many other factors.

 

[Greenback]

Exactly right!