ScotRail style permanent TOC naming & branding for future franchises?

[hexagon789]

Do you really think McDonalds would have done better if every franchised outlet was allowed to do their own thing for branding and offerings?

You never know

 

[IanXC]

Theres also a rule that brands become franchise assets and a successor must be allowed to use the same brand created by the operator with a minor financial compensation.

I look forward to "Virgin Trains East Coast by Abellio"

 

[DelW]

I do like the GWR green and silver, which I thought was a big improvement over First blue. I haven't seen SWR's new colours in the metal, so I'll wait before commenting on them. The really drab one for me is Thameslink - I'm pleased that one livery has replaced the awful mish-mash that preceded it, but it's very plain and shows dirt too quickly.

 

[hexagon789]

I look forward to "Virgin Trains East Coast by Abellio"

Ha ha, that would be interesting!

 

[hexagon789]

I do like the GWR green and silver, which I thought was a big improvement over First blue. I haven't seen SWR's new colours in the metal, so I'll wait before commenting on them. The really drab one for me is Thameslink - I'm pleased that one livery has replaced the awful mish-mash that preceded it, but it's very plain and shows dirt too quickly.

The new GWR livery is very nice in my opinion.

 

[Mikey C]

Buses in London work well. When first privatised there were all sorts of garish colours which led to loss of recognition by passengers. It was then enforced that although franchised operation continued, they must all be painted in a common livery. The branding, and indeed the publicity, is determined by the central organisation, not the individual franchisee. This gets away from nonsenses seen on the railway like maps showing only the train operators' own routes as if it was a network map, pretending other services do not exist.

London's Buses have gone through various stages of "red" livery as well

Before they went to the current "all red" rule, for a while they just had to be predominantly (80%?) red, so the operators were still able to include a few skirts and stripes. While this reduced uniformity, it did make spotting your bus from a distance easier if various firms operated your local routes!

And slightly hypocritically, TfL have reintroduced all over advert buses, which rather defeats the point of a common livery!

 

[hexagon789]

And slightly hypocritically, TfL have reintroduced all over advert buses, which rather defeats the point of a common livery!

Presumably it generates much needed additional income.

 

[3141]

I think that is only a perception of marketing people.

Buses in London work well. When first privatised there were all sorts of garish colours which led to loss of recognition by passengers. It was then enforced that although franchised operation continued, they must all be painted in a common livery. The branding, and indeed the publicity, is determined by the central organisation, not the individual franchisee. This gets away from nonsenses seen on the railway like maps showing only the train operators' own routes as if it was a network map, pretending other services do not exist.

Do you really think McDonalds would have done better if every franchised outlet was allowed to do their own thing for branding and offerings?

Different solutions work according to the circumstances. If you're waiting for a bus in London there's an expectation that they'll all have a similar appearance, so in the early privatisation era a vehicle in the pale green of Harris Bus would take a bit of getting used to. Similarly with Macdonalds - if you're looking for one of them it's helpful to have standard recognisable features.
I don't think that's necessary for trains. The thing that arrives at one of those places with platforms and railway tracks will be a train whatever its colours. At most stations they are mostly in just one set of colours anyway, for those who have difficulty over that sort of thing. Do people have problems at Manchester Piccadilly? Those that do, who don't know whether they want Arriva Trains Wales, TPE or Cross Country will probably look for their destination rather than a livery. Most of the people wanting a standardised livery for trains are actually complaining about privatisation. Did they grumble when BR had Inter-City, NSE and Regional Railways?

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Buses in London work well. When first privatised there were all sorts of garish colours which led to loss of recognition by passengers. It was then enforced that although franchised operation continued, they must all be painted in a common livery. The branding, and indeed the publicity, is determined by the central organisation, not the individual franchisee. This gets away from nonsenses seen on the railway like maps showing only the train operators' own routes as if it was a network map, pretending other services do not exist.

Yes! That's it! Just like the London Buses. Various operators all sharing the same identity, this could work on all English TOCs, if this happens to go that way in the future, using a classy and traditional theme with a rich colour palette like racing green, maroon or dark teal in a similar style of GWR/Caledonian Sleeper.

 

[hexagon789]

Did they grumble when BR had Inter-City, NSE and Regional Railways?

Ah, but the first two of those were, at least, pretty decent liveries.

 

[hexagon789]

classy and traditional theme with a rich colour palette like racing green, maroon or dark teal

Very important they follow that ideal though, the idea of one company with a ghastly livery is bad enough but all the English TOCs, eurgh.

 

[Mikey C]

I do like the GWR green and silver, which I thought was a big improvement over First blue. I haven't seen SWR's new colours in the metal, so I'll wait before commenting on them. The really drab one for me is Thameslink - I'm pleased that one livery has replaced the awful mish-mash that preceded it, but it's very plain and shows dirt too quickly.

Yes, the Thameslink livery is very generic, like the dull Connex Southeastern livery and indeed all subsequent Southeastern liveries other than the blue used for the 395s and repainted 375s

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, the Thameslink livery is very generic, like the dull Connex Southeastern livery and indeed all subsequent Southeastern liveries other than the blue used for the 395s and repainted 375s

It's not too bad, SWR is far duller

 

[Mikey C]

Presumably it generates much needed additional income.

Of course, but slightly silly to insist on complete uniformity on buses (with no coloured skirts or thin stripes allowed) but allow buses to be completely covered in an advert for cider or Coke!

 

[hexagon789]

Of course, but slightly silly to insist on complete uniformity on buses (with no coloured skirts or thin stripes allowed) but allow buses to be completely covered in an advert for cider or Coke!

Bit contradictory, yes

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Of course, but slightly silly to insist on complete uniformity on buses (with no coloured skirts or thin stripes allowed) but allow buses to be completely covered in an advert for cider or Coke!

The idea of trains covered in adverts! *shudders* Like the 2for1 tourism ones on WMR trains, quite tacky.

 

[hexagon789]

The idea of trains covered in adverts! *shudders* Like the 2for1 tourism ones on WMR trains, quite tacky.

Depends on the advert.

 

[transmanche]

I look forward to "Virgin Trains East Coast by Abellio"

I have a vague memory that the East Coast brand passed to VTEC with the award of the franchise to Stagecoach/Virgin - with the caveat that if they wanted to use a different brand, they had to remove that branding at the end the franchise term.

Similarly, at the end of the Abellio/Serco Northern franchise, they had to remove the old Northern logo from everything.

 

[hexagon789]

I have a vague memory that the East Coast brand passed to VTEC with the award of the franchise to Stagecoach/Virgin - with the caveat that if they wanted to use a different brand, they had to remove that branding at the end the franchise term.

Similarly, at the end of the Abellio/Serco Northern franchise, they had to remove the old Northern logo from everything.

I think that's right yes, I recall something along those lines but can't remember what exactly.

 

[xotGD]

Anecdote time: The other day my train to work was an ex - western region 150, recently moved to Northernland. I realised this once I had got on and noticed that the seat fabric was different to normal. I had failed to notice that the train was a different livery before I got on. And that's me with an interest - the average passenger will notice even less.

 

[hexagon789]

And that's me with an interest - the average passenger will notice even less.

Very true

 

[tbtc]

Two things re branding/liveries:

Firstly, we seem to have a lot of TOCs following the same template - the "dull grey body with a colourful diagonal at the ends of the train with the same bright colour used to contrast the doors". XC. SWR. LMR. LNW. VT(WC). The new Northern. The longer distance Stagecoach trains, to a degree. Fairly dull coaches with most of the splash of colour at the front/rear. Okay, the WMR one is a bit more colourful than the SWR one, but it's the same basic idea. Only the new TPE goes a little further by using various shades of blue alongside the grey. Pick your shade of grey/off-white plus a vivid colour for the doors and away you go!

Secondly, whilst there's talk of Virgin on here, there's not much actual Virgin branding on Virgin trains. There's a huge "Virgin" on the leading and rear vehicles, but once you peel them off, there's not many other bits you'd have to change. They are quite smart at making the train *look* Virgin without actually using the word/logo very much.

 

[hexagon789]

Pick your shade of grey/off-white plus a vivid colour for the doors and away you go!

That is sadly the way it seems to be going. Even SNCF have picked a dull new livery for the TGVs.

They are quite smart at making the train *look* Virgin without actually using the word/logo very much.

Which is what it probably should be.

 

[JLUK144]

The idea of trains covered in adverts! *shudders* Like the 2for1 tourism ones on WMR trains, quite tacky.

Scotrail have used a model Class 170 in their Club 50 adverts. It works quite well in my opinion.

 

[hexagon789]

Scotrail have used a model Class 170 in their Club 50 adverts. It works quite well in my opinion.

Indeed, I agree with you

 

[JLUK144]

When I was younger, in the mid 00s, most summers I'd go down to see my aunt who lived just off Worple Road in Wimbledon. Near where she lived was a bridge, not far from Wimbledon station, that crossed over the SWML and every now and again one of SWT's red 455s or blue 450s would go underneath. Since traveling by train and the tube are vital for getting around London, my family would often ride on SWT's red 455s as we made our way into the centre of London. Seeing those bright and colourful trains as a young boy created my love for trains and ever since I've held SWT's livery in high regard.

Yes, the livery is of great sentimental value to me but in comparison, SWR's livery is appalling! I just hope one of their 455s are preserved in SWT's red livery. The only thing appropriate about SWR's blackish livery is that it symbolizes the death of the bright SWT liveries of yesteryear.

 

[Skimble19]

I had failed to notice that the train was a different livery before I got on. And that's me with an interest - the average passenger will notice even less.

I notice this point seems to come up reasonably regularly on this forum, but from my experience I’m not convinced it’s actually entirely true.

For instance, I’ve observed plenty of people either get severely confused, question staff or actually miss various Virgin Trains East Coast services when the East Midlands Trains HSTs are covering them. Indeed I’ve witnessed people arguing with staff that it clearly isn’t their train as “it isn’t a Virgin train”.. so clearly at least some of them do pay some attention!

Indeed even more surprisingly plenty even seem confused by the Thameslink branded 700s turning up on Great Northern services as they say Thameslink on the side, despite the livery being the same as the Great Northern 365s and the only difference being the logo. They don’t question the train, they question the name..

Whilst I’m sure there’s plenty who don’t notice the difference, there’s plenty that do.

 

[hexagon789]

For instance, I’ve observed plenty of people either get severely confused, question staff or actually miss various Virgin Trains East Coast services when the East Midlands Trains HSTs are covering them. Indeed I’ve witnessed people arguing with staff that it clearly isn’t their train as “it isn’t a Virgin train”.. so clearly at least some of them do pay some attention

Yes, I've noticed that at Waverley a few times, it makes me chuckle.

 

[paulravuslante]

The idea of trains covered in adverts! *shudders* Like the 2for1 tourism ones on WMR trains, quite tacky.

Depends on the advert.

Anyone remember Wales & Borders Ginster’s Pasty branded 158?

 

[pdeaves]

Indeed I’ve witnessed people arguing with staff that it clearly isn’t their train as “it isn’t a Virgin train”.. so clearly at least some of them do pay some attention!

I think there is a very strong case, when 'wrong' stock is hired in, to put labels in door windows and some other windows stating 'on hire to <TOC X>', or similar, specifically to get over that point. It isn't hard and it makes life easier for the passenger.