ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Indigo Soup]

Makes sense to me as well. Only thing you'd have to be careful of is that there are a few short platforms (Newtonmore & Dalwhinnie Up platform) to deal with, where the coach next to the power car may not actually be on the platform. However, there's bike storage space on the coach as well (where a toilet has been removed). Not an insurmountable issue though.

I keep coming back to something like the old Transpennine DMUs, or indeed the 7-coach hauled sets from the 1960s and 1970s, as really well suited to the Highland Main Line. Plenty of seating, a griddle car in the middle for something a bit better than lukewarm tea with broken biscuits, and a half brake at either end (so at least one is on the platform) with plenty of space for large luggage, bikes, skis, et cetera.

Hence the huge pressure to dual the A9 and zero pressure to dual the HML.

I worked out once what it would take to get all the articulated lorries, which are the main problem, off of the A9. The answer was a 24-wagon liner train running once an hour from Perth to Inverness, with an intermediate transshipment point at Aviemore, and the equivalent coming back the way. Two an hour if you want to take the smaller trucks off as well. Good luck with that.

I used to use the HML a lot, not so much now. It's certainly in the last ten years, but before the last five, that it's really started struggling. When the liner train came off at Carrbridge in 2010, I was on the last passenger train that got through in front of it; the booked 170 had failed at Inverness and a 158 was substituted. It was a bit cosier than planned, and the heating wasn't playing, but everyone got a seat and luggage was all stowed relatively sensible. That simply couldn't be done with current loadings.

 

[Wst71Pa2]

I've yet to find a power car van door that actually locks property or isn't labelled do not use. I for one wouldn't want anyone getting in there with the control cabinet, fire systems and especially parking brake controls. Not to mention the left over ATP gubbins hanging out out its cabinet, might as well leave the engine room door open, wait some of them don't lock. And as has been said before, stop boards may need moved if these are to be on platforms at certain stations.

So the answer to 'can you not just...' is no

 

[adrock1976]

Being as there are five refurbished sets in Scotland now, for the subsequent refurbished sets that arrive, is a classic set going down to Doncaster in its place for refurbishment or are the numbers not sufficient enough to do that yet?

 

[John Bishop]

Only 1 HST journey on the HML today, 0707 ex Glasgow. Other schedules are 2x158.

 

[CEN60]

Only 1 HST journey on the HML today, 0707 ex Glasgow. Other schedules are 2x158.

That is shocking - it's bad enough with 170s - how to loose customers!!!

 

[hexagon789]

That is shocking - it's bad enough with 170s - how to loose customers!!!

Better than no service at all and two 158s gives more capacity than a 170.

 

[BRX]

I've yet to find a power car van door that actually locks property or isn't labelled do not use. I for one wouldn't want anyone getting in there with the control cabinet, fire systems and especially parking brake controls. Not to mention the left over ATP gubbins hanging out out its cabinet, might as well leave the engine room door open, wait some of them don't lock. And as has been said before, stop boards may need moved if these are to be on platforms at certain stations.

So the answer to 'can you not just...' is no

I thought it was already the plan to use them for end-end stowage.

 

[CEN60]

Better than no service at all and two 158s gives more capacity than a 170.

I assume the 158's are "classless" ie no 1st (or do they still have the 2 sets of tables that they used to?

 

[43096]

I've yet to find a power car van door that actually locks property or isn't labelled do not use. I for one wouldn't want anyone getting in there with the control cabinet, fire systems and especially parking brake controls. Not to mention the left over ATP gubbins hanging out out its cabinet, might as well leave the engine room door open, wait some of them don't lock. And as has been said before, stop boards may need moved if these are to be on platforms at certain stations.

So the answer to 'can you not just...' is no

Wasn’t aware that the door between the van and the cooler group (or indeed those into engine room and clean air compartment) had locks at all.

 

[chuff chuff]

Wasn’t aware that the door between the van and the cooler group (or indeed those into engine room and clean air compartment) had locks at all.

Non that i've seen though some do need a bloody good slam.

 

[hexagon789]

I assume the 158's are "classless" ie no 1st (or do they still have the 2 sets of tables that they used to?

All Standard Class only now.

 

[haggishunter]

Only 1 HST journey on the HML today, 0707 ex Glasgow. Other schedules are 2x158.

Do you mean a 2 car 158 or 2 units? I’d say a 4 car 158 over 170 is an improvement, particularly if it’s Inverness based sets.

Is the thinking with the HST shuttle to/from Inverurie that the line will be much quieter than normal thus negating the negative dwell time issue of the slam doors?

How does a 4 car 158 compare to a 4 coach classic HST 4 for capacity?

 

[hexagon789]

How does a 4 car 158 compare to a 4 coach classic HST 4 for capacity?

'Classic' 2+4 HST: 48 First, 227 Standard
Double (4-car) 158: 276 Standard (138 per set)

 

[Wst71Pa2]

Non that i've seen though some do need a bloody good slam.

Should have said ''close", which you are correct lots don't.

They are planned for end to end, won't hold my breath, just like I won't hold my breath for 5 coaches

 

[computerSaysNo]

Do you mean a 2 car 158 or 2 units? I’d say a 4 car 158 over 170 is an improvement, particularly if it’s Inverness based sets.

I'd have said the seats in the refurbished Haymarket sets are more comfortable, however I've only been on a Haymarket set a couple of times so I'm unsure if they're all that good. I would however agree that regardless of where the 158 are maintained, 2x158 is still an improvement over 1x170.

Out of interest has 3x158 (6 car) ever substituted for 2x170 (6 car)? Or has it ever been diagrammed?

 

[Highlandspring]

Out of interest has 3x158 (6 car) ever substituted for 2x170 (6 car)? Or has it ever been diagrammed?

There has been plenty of 6 car class 158 operation by ScotRail over the years though nothing regularly diagrammed recently; it has all been specific strengthening and additional services for events. In the reverse of what you asked several class 170s have run sans centre coach as for various reasons since they arrived in 1999 and during one of those occasions 170395 was deliberately operated on Haymarket 158 diagrams rather than 170 diagrams for the few weeks the 56 car was missing.

 

[Highland37]

I keep coming back to something like the old Transpennine DMUs, or indeed the 7-coach hauled sets from the 1960s and 1970s, as really well suited to the Highland Main Line. Plenty of seating, a griddle car in the middle for something a bit better than lukewarm tea with broken biscuits, and a half brake at either end (so at least one is on the platform) with plenty of space for large luggage, bikes, skis, et cetera.

I worked out once what it would take to get all the articulated lorries, which are the main problem, off of the A9. The answer was a 24-wagon liner train running once an hour from Perth to Inverness, with an intermediate transshipment point at Aviemore, and the equivalent coming back the way. Two an hour if you want to take the smaller trucks off as well. Good luck with that.

Bear in mind that there is no limit on the height of trucks, they are much cheaper to operate and getting better and the HML is only cleared to W8 gauge and there is a tiny tunnel at Killiekrankie with a 30mph speed limit. The Lotchsberg Tunnel was electrified from the start and is over 100 years old....

 

[PG]

Bear in mind that there is no limit on the height of trucks, they are much cheaper to operate and getting better and the HML is only cleared to W8 gauge and there is a tiny tunnel at Killiekrankie with a 30mph speed limit.

IIRC the minimum height of an unmarked bridge i.e. motorway overbridges is 16'6" in old money, so not unlimited just greater than the clearances on the HML.

However most (if not all) of the goods in a lorry can be put on railway wagons of one kind or another

 

[yorkie]

Just a reminder this thread is to discuss ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

If anyone wishes to discuss anything else, please use an appropriate thread (create one if appropriate and if there isn't one already).

Please do not continue off-topic discussion; either ignore it or report it. If you wish to reply to it, please create a new thread in an appropriate section of the forum.

 

[alangla]

Coming back to the bikes in the power cars, how do/did Great Western do it? Current advice is that storage is in coach A - is that still the power car or is the TGS now A (it’s a while since I’ve travelled down there) https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/journey-information/on-board/cycles

 

[CC 72100]

TGS on HSTs has always been coach A. I believe cycles to the TGS is uniform across 2+8s (well we can still technically say it for the next 15 hours or so!) and either the slamming or sliding variety of 2+4.

 

[pt_mad]

Better than no service at all and two 158s gives more capacity than a 170.

Would two 158s not give more seated capacity than a 4 car HST also?

 

[hexagon789]

Would two 158s not give more seated capacity than a 4 car HST also?

Yes - if you see post #8023 above, I give the relevant figures.

 

[Northhighland]

Do you mean a 2 car 158 or 2 units? I’d say a 4 car 158 over 170 is an improvement, particularly if it’s Inverness based sets.

Is the thinking with the HST shuttle to/from Inverurie that the line will be much quieter than normal thus negating the negative dwell time issue of the slam doors?

How does a 4 car 158 compare to a 4 coach classic HST 4 for capacity?

So put more capacity on where it isn't needed. Suppose that wouldn't surprise me from the buffoons in charge at Scotrail. Point is though why are less than half the leased HST's in service? Surely that can be improved on and pretty quickly?

Two 158's would be better than one 170, especially over the summer. Surely though it would be better to just do what they are supposed to and get the HST issue sorted out? Introduce the trains you are paying for to the services you leased them to provide instead of having them sitting all over the place doing nothing. Or is that just too simplistic?

 

[Northhighland]

I keep coming back to something like the old Transpennine DMUs, or indeed the 7-coach hauled sets from the 1960s and 1970s, as really well suited to the Highland Main Line. Plenty of seating, a griddle car in the middle for something a bit better than lukewarm tea with broken biscuits, and a half brake at either end (so at least one is on the platform) with plenty of space for large luggage, bikes, skis, et cetera.

I worked out once what it would take to get all the articulated lorries, which are the main problem, off of the A9. The answer was a 24-wagon liner train running once an hour from Perth to Inverness, with an intermediate transshipment point at Aviemore, and the equivalent coming back the way. Two an hour if you want to take the smaller trucks off as well. Good luck with that.

I used to use the HML a lot, not so much now. It's certainly in the last ten years, but before the last five, that it's really started struggling. When the liner train came off at Carrbridge in 2010, I was on the last passenger train that got through in front of it; the booked 170 had failed at Inverness and a 158 was substituted. It was a bit cosier than planned, and the heating wasn't playing, but everyone got a seat and luggage was all stowed relatively sensible. That simply couldn't be done with current loadings.

Don't need to get every lorry off the A9. A start would be all supermarket traffic, maybe distillery traffic, etc. Some progress would be helpful not just to traffic flows but to the environment as well.

 

[hexagon789]

Or is that just too simplistic?

There's surely got to be a decent reason why they haven't got all 15 diagrams they said would be HST from May as HST. Training has been stalled a bit for a start I gather from posts up-thread.

 

[mcmad]

So put more capacity on where it isn't needed. Suppose that wouldn't surprise me from the buffoons in charge at Scotrail.

If they're running 2 x 158 vice HST then they're actually providing more capacity but don't let that get in the way of yet another ill informed rant.

 

[route101]

There has been plenty of 6 car class 158 operation by ScotRail over the years though nothing regularly diagrammed recently; it has all been specific strengthening and additional services for events. In the reverse of what you asked several class 170s have run sans centre coach as for various reasons since they arrived in 1999 and during one of those occasions 170395 was deliberately operated on Haymarket 158 diagrams rather than 170 diagrams for the few weeks the 56 car was missing.

Didnt a two car 170 do a Glasgow to Edinburgh via Shotts?

Took 1040 from Queen St to Dundee , hit a problem at Dunblane but we got going . Came back on a Dundee to Glasgow stopper , 170 now feels slow

 

[Steven_G]

Back to the HST’s......

Has the 5th refurb set moved from Perth?

Also, these reliability issues with the power cars, the improvements to be made were posted here recently but is that enough to get their availability up? Do they need a complete overhaul or are these listed items the main reliability issues?

Strangely didn’t see anything on that relating to the batteries which was mentioned as the cause of the power car failures at Perth.

 

[Highlandspring]

Has the 5th refurb set moved from Perth?.

Not yet.