ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[AndrewE]

As has been mentioned on this thread before the powercars are not being fitted with sanders.

...but at least the rear power car has the benefit of the rails being cleaned by the passage of the train ahead of it.
Is wheel-slip control automatic on HSTs, or will the driver cut the power even though the rear one can continue unaffected?

 

[Northhighland]

Think this will be very short sighted economy. Even with 4 or 5 coaches still a heavy train and if it slips spoils the whole HST experience. Especially on Slocht can last for some time.

 

[Highland37]

Agreed. A slipping HST is not a great experience. The magic money tree is a bit stunted these days.

 

[43096]

Agreed. A slipping HST is not a great experience. The magic money tree is a bit stunted these days.

Wheelslip control is much better on those power cars fitted with the upgraded electronics, which includes a modern WSP system which is noticeably better. Unfortunately FGW are the only operator not to do the upgrade and ScotRail are not doing it either as I understand it. It is financially bonkers as it also significantly extends bogie life (by over 100,000 miles).

 

[AndrewE]

. It is financially bonkers as it also significantly extends bogie life (by over 100,000 miles).

...and presumably improves timekeeping on the way too! A public benefit as well as a saving for the operator.
Wheelslip detection was fitted on the WCML electric locos, but not control, I think. Does the new system allow the driver to keep power applied (so the rear power car keeps delivering) or are both notched back?

 

[Northhighland]

Wheelslip control is much better on those power cars fitted with the upgraded electronics, which includes a modern WSP system which is noticeably better. Unfortunately FGW are the only operator not to do the upgrade and ScotRail are not doing it either as I understand it. It is financially bonkers as it also significantly extends bogie life (by over 100,000 miles).

What roughly is the cost of the control upgrade and some sanding equipment for each power car?

 

[jingsmonty]

I'm curious as to what training can be done in unmodified coaches that bear little resemblance to the layout of those that will eventually be in use?

Primarimy for maintenance staff training...electrics, aircon, etc I would think?

 

[jingsmonty]

I wasn't actually thinking in terms of seating. Remember that having slam doors will have an impact too, since the staff and passengers won't be used to them. Without power doors, the HSTs will have longer dwell times than the 170s they replace.

Then, considering the toilets, it would mean going from CETs back to dumping on the tracks. That's not going to go down well with rail staff, or indeed pretty much anyone.

Also, is it not the case that ScotRail will be holding onto many more of the 170s than they originally thought? If so, the direct need to release 170s for cascading isn't so high.

The majority of traincrew that will be working these won't have ever worked with slam door stock before (at least not recently), would entail a lot of training & paperwork to make it happen...doesn't really seem worthwhile fir a short-term temporary arrangement.

 

[GusB]

The majority of traincrew that will be working these won't have ever worked with slam door stock before (at least not recently), would entail a lot of training & paperwork to make it happen...doesn't really seem worthwhile fir a short-term temporary arrangement.

They won't be slam-door, though; they're having power doors fitted as part of the refurbishment.

 

[47802]

They won't be slam-door, though; they're having power doors fitted as part of the refurbishment.

I wish some people would keep up at the back "Jingsmonty" was referring to possible short term usage of un-refurbished HST's

 

[43096]

...and presumably improves timekeeping on the way too! A public benefit as well as a saving for the operator.
Wheelslip detection was fitted on the WCML electric locos, but not control, I think. Does the new system allow the driver to keep power applied (so the rear power car keeps delivering) or are both notched back?

Wheelslip protection is automatic. The original HST system (as still used by GWR) backs the power off when it detects a slip, but in simple terms it then throws the power back in again. Obviously with a severe slip this results in the jerking as the power is repeatedly applied and removed. The new (Knorr Bremse supplied) kit that is fitted with the Brush electronics upgrade is smarter in that it backs the power off in the same way, but then feeds power back in more gradually, so it avoids the worst of the slipping.

It should be noted that power cars work independently, so in theory the driver can leave the power in notch 5 and let the electronics do their job (the electronics are far quicker to react than even the best driver); although it can be useful for the driver to back the power off to notch 3 or 4, especially when adhesion is very poor.

One other point: HST power cars have tread brakes as well as disc. These have the effect of cleaning the wheel treads and therefore improving wheel slip/slide performance.

 

[43096]

What roughly is the cost of the control upgrade and some sanding equipment for each power car?

Not sure what the cost of the new electronics is, but the business case is overwhelming on a lease as long as ScotRail's - Midland Mainline, XC and GNER have all made the business case work despite being on short-ish (7 year) franchises. It's baffling that they are not doing it.

No idea on sanding - there would need to be a design done as no HST power cars are fitted. Given that they have survived 30 years+ with 7-9 car sets over the Devon and Cornish banks, I'm not convinced it is necessary.

 

[delt1c]

Not sure what the cost of the new electronics is, but the business case is overwhelming on a lease as long as ScotRail's - Midland Mainline, XC and GNER have all made the business case work despite being on short-ish (7 year) franchises. It's baffling that they are not doing it.

No idea on sanding - there would need to be a design done as no HST power cars are fitted. Given that they have survived 30 years+ with 7-9 car sets over the Devon and Cornish banks, I'm not convinced it is necessary.

Devon banks are slightly different enviroment to the highlands

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Devon banks are slightly different enviroment to the highlands

Far fewer lineside trees and overgrown vegetation prone to create greasy rails? One good thing about ice is although you slip, the wheels don’t pick it up.

 

[43096]

Devon banks are slightly different enviroment to the highlands

They've worked the Highland main line with 8 or 9 car sets for the last 30 years as well. Why are 4 or 5 car sets over the same routes suddenly going to be a problem?

 

[Marklund]

They've worked the Highland main line with 8 or 9 car sets for the last 30 years as well. Why are 4 or 5 car sets over the same routes suddenly going to be a problem?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the ones that do run have currently have the enhancements?

 

[43096]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the ones that do run have currently have the enhancements?

They do. But they ran for 20 years or so on the route without them.

 

[Marklund]

They do. But they ran for 20 years or so on the route without them.

Of course, I just wondered.

 

[deltic08]

Not sure what the cost of the new electronics is, but the business case is overwhelming on a lease as long as ScotRail's - Midland Mainline, XC and GNER have all made the business case work despite being on short-ish (7 year) franchises. It's baffling that they are not doing it.

No idea on sanding - there would need to be a design done as no HST power cars are fitted. Given that they have survived 30 years+ with 7-9 car sets over the Devon and Cornish banks, I'm not convinced it is necessary.

I was a regular traveller up the 1 in 37 Lickey before introduction of Voyagers by XC. Can't remember any problem with not making it up the hill in an HST. HML is nowhere near as steep at 1 in 60 with 2 or 3 coaches less.

 

[jingsmonty]

Wheelslip protection is automatic. The original HST system (as still used by GWR) backs the power off when it detects a slip, but in simple terms it then throws the power back in again. Obviously with a severe slip this results in the jerking as the power is repeatedly applied and removed. The new (Knorr Bremse supplied) kit that is fitted with the Brush electronics upgrade is smarter in that it backs the power off in the same way, but then feeds power back in more gradually, so it avoids the worst of the slipping.

It should be noted that power cars work independently, so in theory the driver can leave the power in notch 5 and let the electronics do their job (the electronics are far quicker to react than even the best driver); although it can be useful for the driver to back the power off to notch 3 or 4, especially when adhesion is very poor.

One other point: HST power cars have tread brakes as well as disc. These have the effect of cleaning the wheel treads and therefore improving wheel slip/slide performance.

The 158s have a tread 'scrubber' brake pad (although I believe this is only used during leaf fall season)...they are still useless for adhesion, the 170s aren't much better.

Given the VTEC HST (presumably with the newer knorr-bremse WSP fitted) has got stuck (more than once) climbing out of Inverness during leaf fall, this doesn't exactly fill me with confidence for driving them...! Under braking, I've no idea what HSTs are like, but hopefully will be slightly better, given the weight of the power cars (compared to a DMU), but will have to wait & see.

Doesn't suprise me one bit that Abellio aren't fitting the improved electronics module to the Scotrail HST fleet - as Simply Red put it.."money's too tight to mention"...!

 

[jingsmonty]

Far fewer lineside trees and overgrown vegetation prone to create greasy rails? One good thing about ice is although you slip, the wheels don’t pick it up.

I was a regular traveller up the 1 in 37 Lickey before introduction of Voyagers by XC. Can't remember any problem with not making it up the hill in an HST. HML is nowhere near as steep at 1 in 60 with 2 or 3 coaches less.

Yes, but far longer in length than the Lickey Incline. We regularly have issues with slipping on HML. As I said on this thread, the VTEC HST has got stuck leaving Inverness during leaf fall, due to low adhesion, more than once in the past few years. This is WITH the upgraded electronics too!

 

[jingsmonty]

Yes, but far longer in length than the Lickey Incline. We regularly have issues with slipping on HML. As I said on this thread, the VTEC HST has got stuck leaving Inverness during leaf fall, due to low adhesion, more than once in the past few years. This is WITH the upgraded electronics too!

In fairness, the RHTT can be a bit sporadic as to when it runs sometimes....

 

[Highland37]

Back on the filthy units today from Kingussie to Glasgow. 170413 which, as usual, has the roof panels rattling like a cheapo car from the far east (which are pretty good these days). Bring on the HSTs!

That said, the wifi is pretty good on the 170s and 158s.

 

[Highlandspring]

You must be extremely unlucky in apparently getting 'filthy' trains all the time. Your experience certainly doesn't reflect the standards of cleanliness I see when I travel on ScotRail's diesel fleet.

 

[AndrewE]

Wheelslip protection is automatic. The original HST system (as still used by GWR) backs the power off when it detects a slip, but in simple terms it then throws the power back in again. Obviously with a severe slip this results in the jerking as the power is repeatedly applied and removed. The new (Knorr Bremse supplied) kit that is fitted with the Brush electronics upgrade is smarter in that it backs the power off in the same way, but then feeds power back in more gradually, so it avoids the worst of the slipping.

It should be noted that power cars work independently, so in theory the driver can leave the power in notch 5 and let the electronics do their job (the electronics are far quicker to react than even the best driver); although it can be useful for the driver to back the power off to notch 3 or 4, especially when adhesion is very poor.

One other point: HST power cars have tread brakes as well as disc. These have the effect of cleaning the wheel treads and therefore improving wheel slip/slide performance.

Thanks for that, it's exactly what I was wondering about.

 

[Highland37]

You must be extremely unlucky in apparently getting 'filthy' trains all the time. Your experience certainly doesn't reflect the standards of cleanliness I see when I travel on ScotRail's diesel fleet.

I must be. I blame it personally on Nicola Sturgeon and assume Ruth Davidson will sort this out

 

[Macwomble]

and assume Ruth Davidson will sort this out

I wouldn't let Ruth Davidson sort out a 2 ticket raffle

 

[Stopper]

An HST in full FGW livery just reversed back into Haymarket depot. Couldn’t see how long it was due to a 170 obstructing my view.

 

[Highlandspring]

I must be. I blame it personally on Nicola Sturgeon and assume Ruth Davidson will sort this out

Strangely it isn't reflected in the SQUIRE results either. Very odd...

 

[43096]

Doesn't suprise me one bit that Abellio aren't fitting the improved electronics module to the Scotrail HST fleet - as Simply Red put it.."money's too tight to mention"...!

As posted above, it will cost them over the life of the franchise far more than the cost of the upgrade. They don't even have to fund it up front - Angel would fund it as part of the work being done at Brush and recover it through higher leasing charges over the length of the franchise.