ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Rail Blues]

Well, you could try it with one set and see how the media reacts...

It's the high density seating that's the killer, I'd just about be with you otherwise.

The press would be sharpening their pencils to write the 'clapped out English cast offs' story.

 

[route:oxford]

Absolutely, a trip in GWR HST Standard Class is without doubt inferior to a Scotrail 170. Rows and rows of cramped airline seats and terrible lighting, the Scottish media would have a field day. Okay, they're going to have a field day anyway because every jolt and splutter made by these trains is going to be pored over, but there's no need for self inflicted injuries.

They must be refurbed before they turn a wheel for Scotrail.

Goodness, rows & rows of seats. How awful!

I'm sure that passengers seeing a 2+5 HST with all these seats at Queen Street will turn up their noses on the platform and wait to cram onto a 3-car 170 with abandoned buffet in place of seats and stand as far as Perth instead.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Goodness, rows & rows of seats. How awful!

I'm sure that passengers seeing a 2+5 HST with all these seats at Queen Street will turn up their noses on the platform and wait to cram onto a 3-car 170 with abandoned buffet in place of seats and stand as far as Perth instead.

The buffets are in the process of getting removed and replaced with seats. 170394 has recently just came back from having it's buffet replaced. Although, I'd rather have rows and rows of seats rather than 4 seats at a table.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I wasn't actually thinking in terms of seating. Remember that having slam doors will have an impact too, since the staff and passengers won't be used to them. Without power doors, the HSTs will have longer dwell times than the 170s they replace.

Then, considering the toilets, it would mean going from CETs back to dumping on the tracks. That's not going to go down well with rail staff, or indeed pretty much anyone.

Also, is it not the case that ScotRail will be holding onto many more of the 170s than they originally thought? If so, the direct need to release 170s for cascading isn't so high.

 

[47271]

I wasn't actually thinking in terms of seating. Remember that having slam doors will have an impact too, since the staff and passengers won't be used to them. Without power doors, the HSTs will have longer dwell times than the 170s they replace.

Then, considering the toilets, it would mean going from CETs back to dumping on the tracks. That's not going to go down well with rail staff, or indeed pretty much anyone.

Also, is it not the case that ScotRail will be holding onto many more of the 170s than they originally thought? If so, the direct need to release 170s for cascading isn't so high.

All of those things. I only focused on the seating because that would be a hot topic for the Scottish media when the published plans for the trains show majority table layout.

 

[AndrewE]

All of those things. I only focused on the seating because that would be a hot topic for the Scottish media when the published plans for the trains show majority table layout.

Such things can be managed though. Something like "We are sorry that events elsewhere have prevented us from introducing our additional fleet of trains in the refurbished state and on the date that our contract should have delivered. However we are running what we can get hold of anyway. The trains will be be replaced by refurbished sets in succession as soon as that can be done."

 

[Maxfly]

You could almost replace the seats in the hst sets with milk crates and they would still be nicer to travel in than the 170's.

 

[47802]

You could almost replace the seats in the hst sets with milk crates and they would still be nicer to travel in than the 170's.

I've always found Scotrail 170's to be fairly comfortable so I think that's a slight exaggeration to say the least, as is the comment about the current seating layout on the GWR HST's, being from Northern Land will be quite happy to see 16 come down here.

Perhaps Scotland would like to try some 142's for a bit

 

[swaldman]

You could almost replace the seats in the hst sets with milk crates and they would still be nicer to travel in than the 170's.

There's nothing terribly wrong with the seating in 170s IMHO (though I'd agree that they're hardly intercity stock), so long as there's enough of it. The biggest single problem they have is overcrowding.

I agree that the GWR high-density layout is horrid, though, and I'm thankful that that isn't anybody's proposed solution.

 

[47271]

There's nothing terribly wrong with the seating in 170s IMHO (though I'd agree that they're hardly intercity stock), so long as there's enough of it. The biggest single problem they have is overcrowding.

I agree that the GWR high-density layout is horrid, though, and I'm thankful that that isn't anybody's proposed solution.

Exactly, neither a 170 or a GWR HST Standard Class layout is an acceptable way to get from Edinburgh to Inverness. The whole point of having the HSTs in Scotland is to provide proper intercity standards over long distances, not to cram in as many people as possible.

 

[Highland37]

Exactly. Right now I am on the filthy 170 to Inverness from Glasgow. It's too much of a hassle to get the trolley staff to move to the front 3 coaches as that requires a basic level of thinking ahead. Given that someone got on at Pitlochry with a wheelchair and used the ramps, the Scotrail staff appear to be at a loss to explain why a paid, able bodied person, can't move a trolley 20 metres to get to the front of the train.

Yesterday I was on an OBB train to Innsbruck. It's like night and day from the backwardness of the UK.

 

[Northhighland]

Such things can be managed though. Something like "We are sorry that events elsewhere have prevented us from introducing our additional fleet of trains in the refurbished state and on the date that our contract should have delivered. However we are running what we can get hold of anyway. The trains will be be replaced by refurbished sets in succession as soon as that can be done."

I think there would be staff training issues, timetable issues seems a lot of hassle, if we only have to wait a few more months for it to be right. Might work if we had at least one refurb set on each route and then use de-branded unrefurbed for the rest. However the Scottish media like to whine and would make a lot of negative capital out of this.

HST's have the potential to radically improve the rail service to Inverness and Aberdeen, really important to get this right.

 

[JohnR]

I wasn't actually thinking in terms of seating. Remember that having slam doors will have an impact too, since the staff and passengers won't be used to them. Without power doors, the HSTs will have longer dwell times than the 170s they replace.

Then, considering the toilets, it would mean going from CETs back to dumping on the tracks. That's not going to go down well with rail staff, or indeed pretty much anyone.

Also, is it not the case that ScotRail will be holding onto many more of the 170s than they originally thought? If so, the direct need to release 170s for cascading isn't so high.

The HSTs are having power doors fitted. Dwell times wont be an issue. CETS are being fitted.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The HSTs are having power doors fitted. Dwell times wont be an issue. CETS are being fitted.

He was referring to the thought of temporarily using unrefurbished HSTs to provide capacity until refurbished trains were available.

 

[brel york]

Scot rail have said no to this suggestion

 

[route101]

Exactly. Right now I am on the filthy 170 to Inverness from Glasgow. It's too much of a hassle to get the trolley staff to move to the front 3 coaches as that requires a basic level of thinking ahead. Given that someone got on at Pitlochry with a wheelchair and used the ramps, the Scotrail staff appear to be at a loss to explain why a paid, able bodied person, can't move a trolley 20 metres to get to the front of the train.

Yesterday I was on an OBB train to Innsbruck. It's like night and day from the backwardness of the UK.

6 car 170 on Glasgow to Inverness ?

 

[47271]

6 car 170 on Glasgow to Inverness ?

A lot of the Sunday trains are six car

 

[Highland37]

6 car 170 on Glasgow to Inverness ?

Yes that was the case.

 

[najaB]

Saw a GWR-liveried HST passing Dundee this afternoon, obviously out and about on a training run.

 

[ScottDarg]

Saw a GWR-liveried HST passing Dundee this afternoon, obviously out and about on a training run.

Yep, doing runs between Dundee and Haymarket today:

• http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G14202/2018/01/19/advanced
• http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G14203/2018/01/19/advanced
• http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G14204/2018/01/19/advanced
• http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G14205/2018/01/19/advanced

 

[Highland37]

I saw two power cars at Haymarket depot this afternoon. The sooner they appear the better. I am currently on the standard filthy 170 back to Inverness.

Due to signalling problems, I had to come through to Edinburgh on a 334. It's really hammers home how awful the 170s are and how smooth electric units are in comparison.

 

[najaB]

It's really hammers home how awful the 170s are and how smooth electric units are in comparison.

I'm not a fan of 170s but they aren't 'awful' by any stretch of the imagination, they're just not well suited to intercity routes. There are far worse units out there.

 

[Highland37]

I would say they are the second worse train I have been on in ten years. Pacers are the worst.

Two weeks ago I got the train to Innsbruck. Night and day!

 

[Highland37]

I take it all back. I forgot about the 158s. They are a bit more awful than the 170s.

 

[swaldman]

I'm not a fan of 170s but they aren't 'awful' by any stretch of the imagination, they're just not well suited to intercity routes. There are far worse units out there.

Yeah, this. 170s are (were?) fine between Edinburgh and Glasgow. Not so much for Inverness / Aberdeen.

And as for the 158s... well, getting to Wick still involves 4 hours on one! (after 3 hrs on a 170)
They're actually fine, TBH, because the Far North Line is never full. It's the overcrowding on the 170s that is their biggest problem.

 

[Highland37]

I know. It really is quite unbelievable that it takes that long.

As I sit on this dirty 170, I am reading about the Gotthard tunnels, Lotschberg etc, which I have been through many times.

Geography is not a challenge in Scotland in comparison with the Alps or Norway but somehow we have ended up with a very much inferior situation.

Sorry forgot to mention the awful build quality of the 170S. Their roof panels rattle like mad.

 

[najaB]

Sorry forgot to mention the awful build quality of the 170S. Their roof panels rattle like mad.

That's more a maintenance issue than build quality given that they are a decade-plus old.

 

[Highland37]

I don't think that is correct. I used to run a fleet of campervans and there were major differences between brands on panel build quality.

The Mk3s don't have the same rattling issues.

We are now waiting at the antiquated semaphores at Dunkeld.

 

[Highland37]

One area where Scotrail is ahead is WiFi. Let's hope the HSTs are as good in this area.

 

[route:oxford]

As I sit on this dirty 170, I am reading about the Gotthard tunnels, Lotschberg etc, which I have been through many times.

You're not comparing like with like though. Cleanliness Vs Engineering.

Earlier today I was in a branch of Iceland, the customer ahead of me was stinking of ****. I mean, really stinking. I was trying not to gag despite standing well back.

If the same person was standing in front of me in the queue in Waitrose, he'd still be stinking of ****.

Lack of cleanliness on Scotrail is about dirty passengers and an ineffectual workforce.