ScotRail deny blind man and guide dog Sleeper booking

[PaxVobiscum]

I personally feel that any pet taken on a train should be in some sort of transit kennel (especially in the sleeper!)

'Some sort of transit kennel' is a fairly accurate description of all the cubicles on the Caley Sleeper.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Why should they? Its public transport. If you dont have a car and need to go somewhere with dog how elae do you travel?

 

[FGW_DID]

Public Transport it may be, I've actually never seen a dog on the bus route I use and to be honest I don't see why they have need to go on the longer distance services, leave the dog at home or if you really need to, use a transit kennel, but that's just my opinion!

 

[90019]

I've actually never seen a dog on the bus route I use

I regularly have dogs on my bus.

 

[Darandio]

I regularly have dogs on my bus.

With make up streaming down their face and half a kebab in their possession?

 

[90019]

With make up streaming down their face and half a kebab in their possession?

Thankfully, I don't drive the night buses.

 

[Kilted_Scot]

Policy has now been amended so that notice period is not required according to Twitter.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire S A510e using Tapatalk 2

 

[barrykas]

Here's the Tweet in question:

Just to let you know we’ve removed the 48-hour notice period to take assistance dogs and domestic pets on our Sleepers

 

[Cundy66]

Yes. I could equally be allocated a berth that had previously had a pet dog in it. The bedding will have been changed and a responsible guide dog owner doesn't let their dog on beds, furniture etc. anyway. Can't say the same for pet dog owners.

All that's required above and beyond a normal clean is a deeper clean of the carpet and possibly a squirt of a pet odour air freshener.

If ScotRail are charging pet dog owners £90 for additional cleaning then I assume they have the necessary additional cleaning equipment to justify that cost anyway. It surely can't just be a money spinning charge can it?

Perhaps it is. Especially in comparison to hotel chains who allow dogs. I've yet to find one that charges anywhere near £90 for a dog.

I agree I'd be happy to use a berth after a guide dog owner, how many times has anyone been on a local train where some chav has let their dog roam all over the seats and let it p** all over the floor? Happened twice to me on a local service DON-SHF and I know a guide dog is trained and will be as responsible as the owner.

It's as said discrimination, what if I told a blind passenger they couldn't travel any further as a little girl was scared of their dog? There would be up roar and no end of consiquences for myself and the company. It's disgusting and makes me wonder if that's how they treat a blind passenger how would they treat another non-blind passenger.

These are my own views and are not any views of anyone else or company i represent any disagrements should be addressed to myself
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I regularly have dogs on my bus.

Same here and usually laid across 2 seats

 

[FGW_DID]

It's as said discrimination, what if I told a blind passenger they couldn't travel any further as a little girl was scared of their dog? There would be up roar and no end of consiquences for myself and the company. It's disgusting and makes me wonder if that's how they treat a blind passenger how would they treat another non-blind passenger.

Playing Devils Advocate here:

so what would you say to the terrified little girl you mention?

a) Man up, its only a dog
b) get out, its a guide dog
c) stop your crying, if you dont like it, you and your family can leave those seats and go and stand in the other carriage!

Family ends up going to the press etc etc and 24 pages of 'rational debate' ensues on RailUK Forums

 

[BuhSnarf]

No they don't. You have no rights under the Equality Act (DDA repealed 2010) if you suffer from allergies. You have multitude rights if you are blind or otherwise disabled and require an assistance dog.

Severe allergies leading to asthma certainly is covered under the DDA. Sadly I know this from personal experience.

Again though as others have said it all depends on how severe the reactions are.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[island]

It can't be good reason, when, in relation to guide/assistance dogs, it's illegal to make the owners of those dogs give notice.

It's not a pet.

It's an assistant dog required for him to conduct normal life.

It is discriminatory to impose restrictions on disabled people that do not apply to people without disabilities.

I was going to say that I understand it to be legal if more than a nominal cost would be incurred by the provider to treat everyone equally, but (a) I'm not sure about it and (b) they seem to have amended the policy in a hurry.

 

[AlexS]

Playing Devils Advocate here:

so what would you say to the terrified little girl you mention?

a) Man up, its only a dog
b) get out, its a guide dog
c) stop your crying, if you dont like it, you and your family can leave those seats and go and stand in the other carriage!

Family ends up going to the press etc etc and 24 pages of 'rational debate' ensues on RailUK Forums

It's not the case anyway, provided the dog behaves it has every right to be there. I once had a complaint from a father that he didn't want his family sitting next to a Staffie, despite the fact said dog was sitting quietly on the platform, on a lead, with it's owner, causing no bother to anyone.

I advised them not to sit near the dog. They said they had reserved seats, what do we do if it sits next to us. My response was that if they chose not to take up their seat reservations, it's up to them.

 

[jonty14]

Lot of negativity to blind people here. Guide dogs should be aloud to anywhere the owner wants to go. Rather have an alergy than be blind.

 

[bnm]

Good to see ScotRail have removed the notice period booking requirement for assistance dogs. Rather gives the lie to their initial statement that they complied fully with the Equality Act.

I suspect though that some in the anti-pet dog brigade will be less than happy that the notice period has also been removed for domestic dogs, according to the tweet from ScotRail. I note however that the website hasn't been changed, saying they still require 48 hours notice for pet dogs.

Those poor down-trodden allergy sufferers. I have to disagree with those that have commented here that a pet hair allergy is potentially covered by the Equality Act. I can't see how such allergies have:

"a substantial and long-term adverse effect on a person's ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities."

From Equality Act 2010

Even if, and it's a big if, there's a substantial and long-term adverse effect on an allergy sufferer's ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities, then all a service provider need do is make reasonable adjustments. So ScotRail need only ensure that either certain berths are always kept dog-free, or that those that have had dogs in them are suitably deep cleaned afterward. Bearing in mind they charge £90 to pet dog owners for suitable cleaning, I think they have already made a reasonable adjustment in respect of allergy sufferers. Even though, as I've said, I don't think allergy sufferers are covered by the Equality Act.

Page 227 onward of the following document from the Equality and Human Rights Commission sheds some light on what is and what isn't a disability for the purposes and provisions of the Equality Act:

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/uploaded_files/EqualityAct/servicescode.pdf#page=230

 

[wijit]

My fiancée is allergic to dogs, and I'd agree that it really doesn't take much dog-hair to trigger it, this applies to even well-behaved dogs who're kept off furniture etc.

Some people have mentioned Scotrail's obligations to the owner of the guide dog under the DDA - but allergy suffers could (if severe enough) themselves have DDA rights too.

It'd seem easier & better all round if there were some cabins in which dogs were allowed (with extra cleaning - for which an extra charged but there was an exemption for assistance dogs) and some cabins kept dog-free which you could specifically book.

Severe allergies have some protection under the DDA, but not to the same level. The Act can be used but would be very hard to enforce for an allergy if it compromises somebody with what would be reasonably seen as a "real" disability.
Which leads me onto this point;
Exactly what level of cleaning would you reasonably expect if you had a severe nut allergy? The effects of entering an enclosed space where nuts have been eaten can very easily be fatal, and yet people here are banging on about dog hairs? I think a step back, and a view of the wider, and more realistic picture is needed. When you look at the cleaning requirements needed in the food industry when going from a nut product to a non-allergenic product and how this could equate in a sleeper cabin then you might realise the futility of some comments here.
This is not a personal dig at any individual, and the quote is simply due to the relevance, but if you are going to raise points of legislation then a closer look at the wider picture can be helpful.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I find this thread v v upsetting. As my username suggests I am blind and although I dont have a dog my Wife does. Scotrail have already had a very abrupt to the point email Re there recent dealings with us lesser citizens e.g. Disabled sleaper passengers including the suggestion of keeping cabbins dog free.
What angers me more is the atitudes of some on here which I find surprising and upsetting. I do have sympathy with those alergic to hair etc and always clean walls, worktop etc in the berths if my Wifes assistance dog has been in it, trusting that SR Will do the rest.
But the anti disabled person atitude of some posters is what stops us getting on in life and I dont understand why some of the comments in this thread have been made. Thanks to those who have stuck up for0us members of the population who it would seam are not wanted.
I am going to request this thread be locked before any more anti disabled people rubbish is posted. We are surposed to be rail enthusiasts, a breed I have until now found caring and understanding.

 

[Hellfire]

Scotrail's £90 charge for additional cleaning must be a deliberate attempt to stop people travelling with dogs. It certainly cannot bear any relation to the actual cost involved.

I don't know what train cleaners earn but I doubt it is more than £10 per hour. How long does it take to clean a compartment after a dog? Given that the compartment would need cleaning anyway we are only talking here about a small amount of additional time and certainly not £90 worth.

As a matter of interest Travel Lodge charge £20 for a clean if you take your dog into a room and their rooms are a damn sight bigger than a sleeper compartment.

 

[FGW_DID]

........
What angers me more is the atitudes of some on here which I find surprising and upsetting.
But the anti disabled person atitude of some posters is what stops us getting on in life and I dont understand why some of the comments in this thread have been made. Thanks to those who have stuck up for0us members of the population who it would seam are not wanted.
I am going to request this thread be locked before any more anti disabled people rubbish is posted..

What absolute tosh, nobody on here has posted "anti-disabled comments" or made out you are lesser citizens or stated visually / mobility impaired people shouldn't travel. The discussion has been about dogs and everybody commented on assistance dogs should be the exception to any rules in place! This almost smacks of another thread where the OP played the race card because a guard had shouted at them!

If anybody had made any "anti disabled comments" on here, I would expect forum users / mods to jump on them from a great height.

 

[HSTEd]

Scotrail's £90 charge for additional cleaning must be a deliberate attempt to stop people travelling with dogs. It certainly cannot bear any relation to the actual cost involved.

I don't know what train cleaners earn but I doubt it is more than £10 per hour. How long does it take to clean a compartment after a dog? Given that the compartment would need cleaning anyway we are only talking here about a small amount of additional time and certainly not £90 worth.

As a matter of interest Travel Lodge charge £20 for a clean if you take your dog into a room and their rooms are a damn sight bigger than a sleeper compartment.

What it costs to clean the compartment will have no real relationship to what Scotrail are charged.

The contractor takes its cut, followed by the agency before we even get near the staff, who will likely earn nothing more than minimum wage. One agency I worked for (at a packaging company) was paid £13/hr for me and I recieved the minimum wage at the time (£6.08).

 

[Hellfire]

The contractor takes its cut, followed by the agency before we even get near the staff, who will likely earn nothing more than minimum wage. One agency I worked for (at a packaging company) was paid £13/hr for me and I recieved the minimum wage at the time (£6.08).

Best argument I have seen for not contracting out.

 

[paulypaul]

One thing I have noticed is that on the old Scotrail Bargain Berths site said that a travel companion travelling with a disabled passenger travels free, however there is no mention on the Scotrail site now. Although National Rail still mentions it.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/promotions/pre92dc90a04000401b7f532a124505a/details.html

 

[barrykas]

Scotrail's £90 charge for additional cleaning must be a deliberate attempt to stop people travelling with dogs. It certainly cannot bear any relation to the actual cost involved.

It possibly does if they need to get specialist cleaners in to do the job to try to eliminate allergens.

As a matter of interest Travel Lodge charge £20 for a clean if you take your dog into a room and their rooms are a damn sight bigger than a sleeper compartment.

They also charge you for the cost of specialist cleaning (to the tune of £150 IIRC) if you smoke in a room...

 

[VauxhallandI]

Best argument I have seen for not contracting out.

Insourced would mean paying for their pension, holidays, sickness etc. I doubt the TOC would outsource unless it was cost effective.

 

[michael769]

Insourced would mean paying for their pension, holidays, sickness etc. I doubt the TOC would outsource unless it was cost effective.

You would think......

But in my experience not all large companies have a good handle on all their cost structures and sometimes do things because some highly paid analyst wrote a report recommending it, without necessarily applying an appropriate level of critical thought to the issue.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I have a nice couple that stay at my B&B every year, 1 is blind. His guige dogs (last year a new dog) have always been adorable. 6 trillion dog hairs later - I allow an extra 2hrs for cleaning!
Imo they should designate one or two berths for dogs. This way they could have an option for those with an alergy to tick a box, and they would either be allocated a different berth, or show no berths available. They could book those berths last for non dog travelling persons.

 

[bnm]

Just don't do that 2 hour clean soon before the arrival of an allergy suffering guest. Vacuuming is actually likely to exacerbate the situation. Whilst it will remove the hairs it will disturb the real cause of pet allergies, their dander and dried saliva, throwing these small particulates into the air. Best to vacuum the room as soon as possible after the dog has departed and allow a free flow of air (room door open, window open) for a few hours.

 

[TUC]

Best argument I have seen for not contracting out.

Its not an argument against contracting out. It is an argument about how many companies and public bodies who contract out are so inept at doing so and allow themselves to be tied into contracts with high marginal costs for additional work.

 

[insidetrack77]

Just to play devil's advocate, does the sleeper offer accommodation for mobility scooters?

 

[Clip]

It possibly does if they need to get specialist cleaners in to do the job to try to eliminate allergens.



They also charge you for the cost of specialist cleaning (to the tune of £150 IIRC) if you smoke in a room..

You don't need specialist cleaners to eliminate allergens,specifically dog hairs here. Just the same as they don't need specialist cleaners to get rid of any nut allergens in the lounge area and so on. They just need decent equipment.

And Travelodge are just penalising you for smoking in your room rather than getting you nicked for doing so. They won't admit to this but what would a smoker prefer? £150 or charged with something which comes with a higher fine?