ScotRail deny blind man and guide dog Sleeper booking

[bnm]

Really unsatisfactory excuse, to deny the booking simply on the grounds that the 'cleaning systems' in place are not quick enough. How long does the stock lay over at the end of its journey? FGW and their Night Riviera seem to manage fine without requiring 24/48 hours notice. Discrimination by ScotRail, pure and simple.

From The Scotsman

SCOTRAIL is urgently reviewing its Caledonian Sleeper booking policies after refusing a reservation from blind ski racer John Dickinson-Lilley and his guide dog because he did not give the required two days’ notice.

The sportsman was unable to book a berth between London and Aviemore for tonight when he phoned the train operator at 5pm yesterday.

However, the train operator apologised after Dickinson-Lilley highlighted his plight on the social media website Twitter, gaining the backing of hundreds of people including former First Minister Jack (now Lord) McConnell.

ScotRail’s sister firm First Great Western said there was no minimum booking period for passengers with guide dogs on its London-Penzance sleeper, if berths were available.

Dickinson-Lilley said: “I wonder how many ordinary blind people who may not have my confidence or professional background in campaigning would have reacted.

“I’d guess they simply wouldn’t have travelled and accepted ScotRail’s discriminatory policy.

“It appals me that just months after London 2012 there is a huge failure to understand that disabled people are ordinary people – we have last minute changes to plans, emergencies and quite frankly the right to travel whenever we like without having to book days in advance.

“I regularly get refused by taxi drivers, in shops and at restaurants simply because they fail to acknowledge or respect equality law.”

He earlier tweeted: “Been refused by ScotRail on 2mrw nights sleeper cause I have a guidedog! Supposed to be ski training with team in Aviemore.

“Told couldn’t travel w/out 48h notice as need book a cleaner!

“Unlawful under the Equality Act 2010.”

ScotRail said it was “urgently reviewing its procedures to speed up the preparation of sleeping berths after dogs have travelled in them”.

It has also apologised to Dickinson-Lilley and offered him and his dog a free berth tonight.

A ScotRail spokesman said: “We are genuinely sorry that we didn’t act more quickly on this.

“We have launched an urgent review into our current cleaning systems, with the aim of speeding up the preparation of Sleeper berths in future.”

Dickinson-Lilley is the UK’s only male blind ski racer and a member of the British Disabled Ski Team development squad, who is hoping to compete in the 2018 Winter Paralympics in Korea.

ScotRail said it permitted “assistance dogs” on the Sleeper and waived the cleaning charge that applied for other passengers who brought dogs on board.

It said it complied with all relevant legislation, including the Equality Act.

So, they comply with the Act do they? No need to 'urgently review' procedures then. :roll:

 

[barrykas]

Must be a slow news day...Scotrail make it perfectly clear that 48 hours advance notice (72 when travelling on a Sunday) is required for ALL dogs/pets on the Sleeper, and it'll normally cost you a £90 cleaning fee per single journey!

Would've been worse if he'd been trying to get to Fort William and wanted an accessible berth...That has to be booked a week in advance! This is presumably so they can ensure a coach containing same is in the right place in the formation.

 

[bnm]

There's a difference between a pet dog and one used as a disability aid. Those who require a guide dog should not be put at a disadvantage versus those who don't.

Also, interesting to note that the public information regarding carriage of dogs on the Caledonian Sleeper doesn't tally with the retail information provided to staff. There it states that 24 hours notice is required from guide dog users. Mr Dickinson-Lilley phoned up at 5pm Thursday for the Friday departure. Which was actually more than 24 hours notice, even though, as a guide dog user, he shouldn't have been required to give any notice.

It is against the law for service providers to treat people with disabilities less favourably because of their disability, or because they have a guide or assistance dog with them. Requiring them to give notice of their use of the Sleeper, when no such notice is required from the non-disabled is a case of being treated less favourably.

 

[Kilted_Scot]

I have met this guy before on train, a very pleasant young chap, normally with a big bag of skis! lol Its disappointing to hear of this as its not exactly great customer service. Most rules on pets have an "except guide dogs" exclusionas far as I was aware. Its a shame, Scotrail try hard to improve customer service then do silly things like this. Makes me uncomfortable.

 

[90019]

There's a difference between a pet dog and one used as a disability aid. Those who require a guide dog should not be put at a disadvantage versus those who don't.

Therefore ScotRail should not be requiring more notice from a guide dog user than that required of a passenger with no disability.

So you'd be quite happy to use a berth that has dog hair in it because it was a guide dog?

 

[Nym]

It's really not that difficult to get hold of additional cleaning staff, it's a 2 minute phone call to your cleaning contractor.

 

[bnm]

So you'd be quite happy to use a berth that has dog hair in it because it was a guide dog?

Yes. I could equally be allocated a berth that had previously had a pet dog in it. The bedding will have been changed and a responsible guide dog owner doesn't let their dog on beds, furniture etc. anyway. Can't say the same for pet dog owners.

All that's required above and beyond a normal clean is a deeper clean of the carpet and possibly a squirt of a pet odour air freshener.

If ScotRail are charging pet dog owners £90 for additional cleaning then I assume they have the necessary additional cleaning equipment to justify that cost anyway. It surely can't just be a money spinning charge can it?

Perhaps it is. Especially in comparison to hotel chains who allow dogs. I've yet to find one that charges anywhere near £90 for a dog.

 

[Clip]

Must be a slow news day...Scotrail make it perfectly clear that 48 hours advance notice (72 when travelling on a Sunday) is required for ALL dogs/pets on the Sleeper, and it'll normally cost you a £90 cleaning fee per single journey!

Would've been worse if he'd been trying to get to Fort William and wanted an accessible berth...That has to be booked a week in advance! This is presumably so they can ensure a coach containing same is in the right place in the formation.

Sorry but there is simply no excuse for this whatsoever.

If Scotrail do not have the resources to clean up after dogs then there is something clearly wrong with their contractors.

 

[6Gman]

So you'd be quite happy to use a berth that has dog hair in it because it was a guide dog?

In my experience guide dogs are cleaner than a lot of human passengers!

 

[90019]

In my experience guide dogs are cleaner than a lot of human passengers!

They're still dogs, and will leave hair behind regardless, which is a total pain to get rid of.

My previous car hadn't had a dog in it since the end of 2011, and there was still dog hair in it when I sold it a couple of weeks back. My current one hasn't had a dog in it since 2010, and despite being cleaned often, I'm still finding dog hairs.


Don't get me wrong, I love dogs and think that £90 is excessive for non guide dogs, but if they need to bring in someone especially to clean the berths after there's been a dog, then the need to book in advance is there with good reason, guide dog or not.

 

[bnm]

then the need to book in advance is there with good reason, guide dog or not.

It can't be good reason, when, in relation to guide/assistance dogs, it's illegal to make the owners of those dogs give notice.

 

[313103]

Now i wonder if Scotrail would have done the same thing if they had cleaners directly employed by themselves rather then farming out there cleaners to a fly by night cowboy cleaning company, who probably are paid minimum wage (which makes a farce of the £90 charge), let alone all the other issues that come along with contract cleaning companies.

It seems (well done here in the old smoke) that two sister companies cant work out disability issues. At a certain station on the North London Line that has interface with London Underground, if you are Visaully impared you will have assistance by a member of London Underground station staff as its there station (but only if its been wired through in time, otherwise the individual is left tohis/her own devices).

Now if you are Mobility impared that is completely different, no staff will meet you, you will need to exit the station of your own accord, if you are changing trains say from one LO service to another, you will a Guard on board one to either help you get on or off , but if your using the DOO route you have no one to help you. At this station you do not have London Overground employees.
Last week during disruption on the NLL we spent about 7 minutes in the platform whilst i had to fight my way through a crowded platform, to get to the train ramp on the train which meant asking about 50 to 60 people to move out of the way, and once i had done that i then had ask all those people on the platform to move out of the way to allow room for the ramp and to allow the person off the train, people are people and see themselves as diferent to everyone else, you will be surprised at the amount of huffing and puffing ordinary members of the public where doing when i asked them to move.

It is a society thing that needs to change if we are going to have complete inclusion.

 

[scotraildriver]

Scotrail cleaners ARE directly employed as are catering staff. Not sure who services the sleeper in London though.

 

[tsr]

It is a society thing that needs to change if we are going to have complete inclusion.

To some extent, yes. Some passengers do seem to readily complain at the slightest inconvenience caused by a TOC/NR assisting a disabled passengers - by no means the majority, but those who do make life rather uncomfortable.

Unfortunately, no matter how considerate and pleasant TOC staff try to be, there's always the one person who will moan... dare I say it, it normally appears to be a "regular" who thinks they are not obliged to wait an extra 43 seconds for a wheelchair-bound passenger to board, for example.

I am not disabled, but I am still impressed when I observe a lot of railway staff accommodating those less able to navigate trains/stations independently. I have seen excellent improvements from Southern, especially, but SWT & FGW are also good, from what I see.

Regarding the ScotRail sleeper issue, I suppose part of the problem with cleaning after dogs, pets etc. may be the contingency measures they need to put in place. Especially if the animal isn't a guide dog, I suppose there is a reasonably significant risk that it will have made something of a mess (not necessarily through any provocation of the owner or due to the temperament of the animal - accidents happen!). Some passengers may have severe allergies or intolerances, so the cabin may also need to be cleaned to special standards.

 

[AndrewP]

This is amazing - any decent contractor would have been able to do this clean with no problem with minimal notice.

I think its more likely to be an admin / process issue.

As for removing pet hair its not that difficult - a damp rubber glove does the job easily and can then be followed by a standard vacuum.

If their cleaning is done in house maybe they should contract it out!

 

[Helvellyn]

So the assumption is that it's a quick two minute run-round with a vacuum and a damp cloth, and that's the cleaning done? I'm not excusing the 48-hours notice issue that ScotRail said it required, but don't forget that the Sleepers have carpeted walls as well as floors. The dog could have come into contact with those as well as the floor, so they need properly cleaned. And one of the reasons is that quite a lot of people have pet allergies, so don't want to find themselves exposed to an environment they would assume to be clean and then start suffering!

 

[dcsprior]

Some passengers may have severe allergies or intolerances, so the cabin may also need to be cleaned to special standards.

My fiancée is allergic to dogs, and I'd agree that it really doesn't take much dog-hair to trigger it, this applies to even well-behaved dogs who're kept off furniture etc.

Some people have mentioned Scotrail's obligations to the owner of the guide dog under the DDA - but allergy suffers could (if severe enough) themselves have DDA rights too.

It'd seem easier & better all round if there were some cabins in which dogs were allowed (with extra cleaning - for which an extra charged but there was an exemption for assistance dogs) and some cabins kept dog-free which you could specifically book.

 

[soil]

Must be a slow news day...Scotrail make it perfectly clear that 48 hours advance notice (72 when travelling on a Sunday) is required for ALL dogs/pets on the Sleeper, and it'll normally cost you a £90 cleaning fee per single journey!

It's not a pet.

It's an assistant dog required for him to conduct normal life.

It is discriminatory to impose restrictions on disabled people that do not apply to people without disabilities.

 

[sidmouth]

It's not a pet.

It's an assistant dog required for him to conduct normal life.

Totally agree. However I would not wish to occupy a berth that had previously been occupied by a dog without a deep clean. What do u suggest then? Should my reservation therefore be cancelled and who pays my compensation?

 

[bnm]

Some people have mentioned Scotrail's obligations to the owner of the guide dog under the DDA - but allergy suffers could (if severe enough) themselves have DDA rights too.

No they don't. You have no rights under the Equality Act (DDA repealed 2010) if you suffer from allergies. You have multitude rights if you are blind or otherwise disabled and require an assistance dog.

ScotRail, a taxi, a bus, a hotel, a restaurant etc etc cannot deny access to an assistance dog user just because a subsequent customer may be an allergy sufferer.

Dander from domestic animals can be almost anywhere. If it's a problem for you then take antihistamines.

 

[dcsprior]

No they don't. You have no rights under the Equality Act (DDA repealed 2010) if you suffer from allergies. You have multitude rights if you are blind or otherwise disabled and require an assistance dog.

ScotRail, a taxi, a bus, a hotel, a restaurant etc etc cannot deny access to an assistance dog user just because a subsequent customer may be an allergy sufferer.

Dander from domestic animals can be almost anywhere. If it's a problem for you then take antihistamines.

Indeed, the obligations which are still referred to as "DDA" by laypeople such as me now come under Equalities Act.

The definition of "disability" in the Equalities Act is: a physical or mental impairment that has a ‘substantial’ and ‘long-term’ negative effect on your ability to do normal daily activities

I believe that this means some people suffering from severe allergies would fall within its scope: (almost) all allergies are long-term, and if they're severe enough to trigger an asthma attack I'd say that was 'substantial'. Hayfever is specifically excluded, but the fact that there is the need to exclude it does add weight to the fact that allergies in general can be a disability - though obviously they won't be in all cases.

Of course, regardless of this, it would cost ScotRail nothing (other than some admin time) to keep some cabins dog-free and would improve service to some of their customers. It may also mean they can skip the deep-cleaning of cabins where an assistance dog has been in then at short notice, avoiding what happened in this case.

 

[MCW]

A dog, being on a bed, or near to a bed for less than 24 hours is not a bother at all for me, less so is the fact that the dog in question here is a Guide Dog, a Working Assistant dog.

If the bedding is always fresh, like it always is, and the cleaning proceedure is nice and thorough like it should be, then there should not be a problem at all.

 

[Crompton Karl]

Scotrail cleaners ARE directly employed as are catering staff. Not sure who services the sleeper in London though.

Not entirely true.

Only scotrail cleaners on sleeper are at Fort William & Inverness. Aberdeen is serviced by Clayhill staff (East Coast employees) and Edinburgh/Glasgow services at Polmadie (Alstom, probably subcontracted out). In London it's Wembley Alstom staff or subcontracted staff from Alstom, once again.

Yes us on train Sleeper Hosts/Team Leaders & Train managers are scotrail employees.

 

[soil]

Totally agree. However I would not wish to occupy a berth that had previously been occupied by a dog without a deep clean. What do u suggest then? Should my reservation therefore be cancelled and who pays my compensation?

Clearly they can clean it, because they ask for 48 hours notice to do so.

That system therefore needs some amendment to permit disabled passengers the same rights as non-disabled passengers.

Personally I think you are dreaming about 'deep clean', public spaces are dirty and they don't get cleaned properly - you have no idea who puked there last night or whatever, or what dog was in that space two stops ago. But anyway, living in some fantasy world where guide dogs make sleeper berths unusable without some sort of industrial cleaning, then that's what they need to do.

 

[michael769]

It is worth noting that the breeds used for guide dogs are all short haired and are not known to cause significant problems for allergy sufferers.

 

[marks87]

If he was en route to Aviemore, doesn't that mean the coach was about to be deep-cleaned anyway? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't every half set designed to go to Inverness once a week for that purpose?

That's not to say he should have still been denied access on any other portion of the sleeper, but it surely negates the arguments about allergies etc. in this particular scenario?

 

[tsr]

Dander from domestic animals can be almost anywhere. If it's a problem for you then take antihistamines.

That's a slightly naïve comment, I have to say. Antihistamines and even some more powerful drugs given to allergy sufferers will generally only have a partial effect in suppressing the symptoms.

It is far better to prevent the risk of an "allergy attack" by either preventing animals from accessing certain areas or deep cleaning.

An animal living in any area for around 8-12 hours will lead to a lot more hair and other allergens being deposited than if they pass through a large and better-ventilated public area such as a station, restaurant, shop or even a more open-plan train.

Pet allergies can be highly unpleasant and can ruin a night's sleep or, worse, bring on breathing difficulties or an asthma attack. Contrary to common belief, there are a number of different ways an allergic reaction can be triggered, and it's not just because of long-haired animals or, in the case of hayfever, high levels of a particular pollen pollutant.

I speak wholly from personal experience and the experiences of friends and family. Such experience includes consultation with doctors.

 

[AndrewP]

I have worked with many contract cleaners over the years and most major players would not bat an eyelid at having a deep clean at short / minimal notice and would have the equipment necessary to do it.

Put simply its no big deal to them. There would be an extra charge to the company which could be levied for pets but not assistance dogs.

 

[YorkshireBear]

A dog, being on a bed, or near to a bed for less than 24 hours is not a bother at all for me, less so is the fact that the dog in question here is a Guide Dog, a Working Assistant dog.

If the bedding is always fresh, like it always is, and the cleaning proceedure is nice and thorough like it should be, then there should not be a problem at all.

Yep that is my opinion too, the system needs changings.

 

[FGW_DID]

With the obvious exception of assistance / guide dogs, why do people feel the need to take dogs on trains anyway? I personally feel that any pet taken on a train should be in some sort of transit kennel (especially in the sleeper!)