Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[Failed Unit]

What the railway way has done historically is no reason for what they should do now. It's all about customer relations and acknowledging that there is a squeeze coming. Need to think outside the box guys.

If customer satisfaction is at the heart of having a competitive franchise system they need to show they care. They value those paying the fares So no. Fare reductions for periods of prolonged disruption. No ifs. No buts.

I doubt the franchise holder could care less if they are making a profit. Look at GTR. Bottom of satisfaction but they don’t care while the money rolls in.

 

[hexagon789]

But as others have said people travelling between Glasgow and Edinburgh already have a choice. It is people at Linlithgow, Polmont, Falkirk, Croy and Lenzie suffering.

I can see your point, I often forget about the intermediate passengers. Perhaps a lowering of fares to those stations as well is in order?

 

[Failed Unit]

I can see your point, I often forget about the intermediate passengers. Perhaps a lowering of fares to those stations as well is in order?

Maybe. But what is the point if they can’t physically board. At times they struggled with 6 coaches.

 

[hexagon789]

Maybe. But what is the point if they can’t physically board. At times they struggled with 6 coaches.

As you can probably gather I'm clawing at thin air trying to come up with an answer! I don't think there is a solution to that except 7 and then 8-car 385s when they do eventually enter service and potentially Class 365s in the interim. That's the best I can think of

 

[Failed Unit]

I wonder at what point Scotrail can say enough is enough and walk away from the contract? I know they want new but lots of EMUs around to refurbish to a high standard. Retrospective fitting of Air conditioning for example is possible.

Saying that longer term have half an eye on the 379s if they walk from 385s.

 

[marks87]

The lower fare via Airdrie is presumably designed to help the intermediate passengers.

I suppose a drastic solution could be to, at Queen Street and Waverley, advertise services as terminating at the last intermediate station (or second last towards Edinburgh), a la the York to Leeds via Harrogate being advertised as Burley Park/Poppleton.

But people will probably be wise to such a move.

 

[Chrism20]

Reducing fares is the worst thing that they could do.

If it’s a permanent reduction it starves the industry of funding not just this year but in every year thereafter whilst a temporary reduction sets a precedent for passengers to squeal at every occasion something goes wrong for a discount.

The situation on the diesel lines is getting desperate but giving away fare reductions isn’t going to solve the problem.

There are areas of the U.K. with more chronic overcrowding ad reliability issues than the local stopping service to Stirling.

 

[AlexNL]

I doubt the franchise holder could care less if they are making a profit. Look at GTR. Bottom of satisfaction but they don’t care while the money rolls in.

Abellio have already loaned £25 million from parent company NS to cover for losses on the ScotRail franchise, a loan which they will have to pay back - with interest. Furthermore, they are likely to be fined by the Scottish govt if they fail to deliver in line with the franchise specification.

 

[hexagon789]

Abellio have already loaned £25 million from parent company NS to cover for losses on the ScotRail franchise, a loan which they will have to pay back - with interest. Furthermore, they are likely to be fined by the Scottish govt if they fail to deliver in line with the franchise specification.

Maybe it's just me, but I think they are almost definitely going to get fined. Whether they lose the franchise, is anyone's guess.

 

[Failed Unit]

Abellio have already loaned £25 million from parent company NS to cover for losses on the ScotRail franchise, a loan which they will have to pay back - with interest. Furthermore, they are likely to be fined by the Scottish govt if they fail to deliver in line with the franchise specification.

Will not distract from the thread too much. But look at the past. VTEC? National Express East Coast? If Abellio walk they are in a better position than transport Scotland.

 

[Christmas]

I would be interested to know if Scottish Citylink have seen an increase in passengers between Glasgow and Edinburgh. Perhaps ScotRail might look at reducing the E&G to half hourly but with a non-stop coach between Queen St and Edinburgh every hour or half hour too. Or what about asking CrossCountry to run Voyager shuttles between Glasgow Central and Edinburgh via Carstairs? Or even via Falkirk High subject to staff training? There is a looming crisis thst must be adressed.

 

[hexagon789]

I would be interested to know if Scottish Citylink have seen an increase in passengers between Glasgow and Edinburgh. Perhaps ScotRail might look at reducing the E&G to half hourly but with a non-stop coach between Queen St and Edinburgh every hour or half hour too. Or what about asking CrossCountry to run Voyager shuttles between Glasgow Central and Edinburgh via Carstairs? Or even via Falkirk High subject to staff training? There is a looming crisis thst must be adressed.

Any solution is a good idea at this point in my opinion, some may be easier to implement than others but the situation is getting decidedly worse.

 

[Stopper]

But as others have said people travelling between Glasgow and Edinburgh already have a choice. It is people at Linlithgow, Polmont, Falkirk, Croy and Lenzie suffering.

They have no alternative as the Stirling trains can’t cope with what they get.

Well actually the choice is use the M9 which I know people are already doing then taking the tram into town. I suspect they will need to lower fare to get them back. Not sure what the plan b is for someone heading to Glasgow.

This is true. People forget that in the peaks, travel from Edinburgh or Glasgow to the intermediate stations far outnumbers the end to end passengers. All 5 of these stations, especially Linlithgow and Croy are extremely busy. Linlithgow and Croy are up there with the busiest intermediate stops in Scotland.

 

[hexagon789]

This is true. People forget that in the peaks, travel from Edinburgh or Glasgow to the intermediate stations far outnumbers the end to end passengers. All 5 of these stations, especially Linlithgow and Croy are extremely busy. Linlithgow and Croy are up there with the busiest intermediate stops in Scotland.

Hopefully they think up some solution for passengers to/from those stations, but I won't hold my breath for it.

 

[47271]

I would be interested to know if Scottish Citylink have seen an increase in passengers between Glasgow and Edinburgh. Perhaps ScotRail might look at reducing the E&G to half hourly but with a non-stop coach between Queen St and Edinburgh every hour or half hour too. Or what about asking CrossCountry to run Voyager shuttles between Glasgow Central and Edinburgh via Carstairs? Or even via Falkirk High subject to staff training? There is a looming crisis thst must be adressed.

Well, you could try the coach, but the last time I did central Edinburgh to central Glasgow by road in my own car in the morning peak it took me an hour and three quarters.

 

[hexagon789]

Well, you could try the coach, but the last time I did central Edinburgh to central Glasgow by road in my own car in the morning peak it took me an hour and three quarters.

The motorway always seems to be nigh on gridlocked though unfortunately.

 

[170401]

Well, you could try the coach, but the last time I did central Edinburgh to central Glasgow by road in my own car in the morning peak it took me an hour and three quarters.

And there we have the very reason Scotrail can justify near 25 quid return for a 50 minute journey

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Maybe it's just me, but I think they are almost definitely going to get fined. Whether they lose the franchise, is anyone's guess.

So you want to shoot Scotrail for Network Rail's failure to deliver the electrification infrastructure, and Hitachi's failure to deliver acceptable trains?

 

[hexagon789]

So you want to shoot Scotrail for Network Rail's failure to deliver the electrification infrastructure, and Hitachi's failure to deliver acceptable trains?

I didn't say I wanted them to get fined, I don't. I simpy think it's inevitable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And there we have the very reason Scotrail can justify near 25 quid return for a 50 minute journey

Dirt cheap compared with anything in the South East of England.

 

[hexagon789]

Dirt cheap compared with anything in the South East of England.

Indeed, especially via Airdrie at the moment.

 

[IanXC]

The railway has never reduced fares for a restricted/disrupted service.
Sundays/weekends can be a nightmare everywhere but there are no cheaper fares.
In any case if the current service capacity/frequency is maintained, there's no room for complaint.
The time for discounts is after the new trains come in, to utilise the new capacity.

Indeed - to reduce the fares when capacity is reduced would be madness as you'd just exacerbate the overcrowding problems. As you say it would be much better to offer a discount when capacity is in place as a thank you - or when capacity allows for instance if 8 car 365s end up running on the route.

Or what about asking CrossCountry to run Voyager shuttles between Glasgow Central and Edinburgh via Carstairs? Or even via Falkirk High subject to staff training? There is a looming crisis thst must be adressed.

If we're talking about 18 months then that might not be entirely crazy. I believe all CrossCountry's crew are based at Edinburgh, but you'd still have to find some EMUs to fill in the gaps on the Carstairs route caused by withdrawing the XC service, so all in all you're probably better to use the temporary solution only on one route (ie the E2G).

 

[Mingulay]

Reducing fares is the worst thing that they could do.

If it’s a permanent reduction it starves the industry of funding not just this year but in every year thereafter whilst a temporary reduction sets a precedent for passengers to squeal at every occasion something goes wrong for a discount.

The situation on the diesel lines is getting desperate but giving away fare reductions isn’t going to solve the problem.

There are areas of the U.K. with more chronic overcrowding ad reliability issues than the local stopping service to Stirling.

Wrong.

This is about a fares reduction for long term disruption and service below par on Scotlands Flagship rail service for the period it's below the promised service. Not permanent .

It's only a precedent for that type of scenario . Not passengers squealing. Again the language is such that passengers have no right to complain. That's squealing? No ! No ! No !

That's just valid reasonable justifiable dissatisfaction for a poor service delivered consistently and a flagship high profile project that's gone off the rails.

Running a good railway is not rocket science in most countries. Surely now we see in the U.K our model is flawed.

When we are arguing about blame. Network rail. Abellio. Scotrail transport contracts a fragmented Fleet. Ridiculous

So defending scotrail by saying it's not as bad as elsewhere in the U.K. Is a miserably low aspiration. Benchmarking against the worst is an aspiration of mediocrity at best

So perhaps here in Scotland there is an opportunity to plant the standard others follow. This model is fataly flawed and its time is up.

If the consensus is you pay the same fare no matter the delays no matter the overcrowding no matter the dirt no matter what. Then we have a contract with the passenger that no one should have signed on our behalf

 

[43096]

Wrong.

This is about a fares reduction for long term disruption and service below par on Scotlands Flagship rail service for the period it's below the promised service. Not permanent .

It's only a precedent for that type of scenario . Not passengers squealing. Again the language is such that passengers have no right to complain. That's squealing? No ! No ! No !

That's just valid reasonable justifiable dissatisfaction for a poor service delivered consistently and a flagship high profile project that's gone off the rails.

Running a good railway is not rocket science in most countries. Surely now we see in the U.K our model is flawed.

When we are arguing about blame. Network rail. Abellio. Scotrail transport contracts a fragmented Fleet. Ridiculous

So defending scotrail by saying it's not as bad as elsewhere in the U.K. Is a miserably low aspiration. Benchmarking against the worst is an aspiration of mediocrity at best

So perhaps here in Scotland there is an opportunity to plant the standard others follow. This model is fataly flawed and its time is up.

If the consensus is you pay the same fare no matter the delays no matter the overcrowding no matter the dirt no matter what. Then we have a contract with the passenger that no one should have signed on our behalf

I would suggest that cutting fares now is entirely wrong - it just encourages more travel, when the issue is lack of capacity. I would suggest the answer might lie in discounts on season ticket renewals - that gives something back to regular travellers.

I hope ScotRail and the ROSCO have a water-tight contract with Hitachi - they should be picking up the tab for everything.

 

[hexagon789]

I would suggest that cutting fares now is entirely wrong - it just encourages more travel, when the issue is lack of capacity. I would suggest the answer might lie in discounts on season ticket renewals - that gives something back to regular travellers.

I don't think reducing fares is the worst decision they've made though.

 

[Mingulay]

I would suggest that cutting fares now is entirely wrong - it just encourages more travel, when the issue is lack of capacity. I would suggest the answer might lie in discounts on season ticket renewals - that gives something back to regular travellers.

I hope ScotRail and the ROSCO have a water-tight contract with Hitachi - they should be picking up the tab for everything.

I travel 4 days a week on average. I don't have a season ticket. I don't see why only season tickets holders are compensated. I am a regular passenger too . No. Across the board fares reduction. The logic to hold fares high to reduce overcrowding means we don't need more capacity. Just really high fares and there will be no overcrowding !

This is a reduction for a period of disruption for a service not delivering. It's as simple as that.

What is the incentive to any company that no matter what the service. Year on year they can bank on a fixed increase in the fares. A raw deal for passengers.

All complicated stuff. No simple answers. But rejecting the notion that saying sorry to passengers for long term disruption by charging them a bit less for their regular travel with no alternative is hard to defend.

Let's remember the disruption is not just on the rail. It's road closures. It's town centers affected closed roads. Retailers affected. Can't modernist the railway without disruption I know.

Discounting fares in those routes at this time is very justifiable.

 

[hexagon789]

Discounting fares in those routes at this time is very justifiable.

I think it is, alright you may risk having greater passenger numbers but at least you are compensating people for the inconvenience to a degree.

 

[fairliered]

The fairest option may be to offer discounted fares to and from intermediate stations, but not from Edinburgh to Queen Street, except via Airdrie.

 

[hexagon789]

The fairest option may be to offer discounted fares to and from intermediate stations, but not from Edinburgh to Queen Street, except via Airdrie.

Certainly having read previous posts I know appreciate what a raw deal the likes of passengers from Croy, Polmont and Linlithgow are getting

 

[Chrism20]

Wrong.

This is about a fares reduction for long term disruption and service below par on Scotlands Flagship rail service for the period it's below the promised service. Not permanent .

It's only a precedent for that type of scenario . Not passengers squealing. Again the language is such that passengers have no right to complain. That's squealing? No ! No ! No !

That's just valid reasonable justifiable dissatisfaction for a poor service delivered consistently and a flagship high profile project that's gone off the rails.

Running a good railway is not rocket science in most countries. Surely now we see in the U.K our model is flawed.

When we are arguing about blame. Network rail. Abellio. Scotrail transport contracts a fragmented Fleet. Ridiculous

So defending scotrail by saying it's not as bad as elsewhere in the U.K. Is a miserably low aspiration. Benchmarking against the worst is an aspiration of mediocrity at best

So perhaps here in Scotland there is an opportunity to plant the standard others follow. This model is fataly flawed and its time is up.

If the consensus is you pay the same fare no matter the delays no matter the overcrowding no matter the dirt no matter what. Then we have a contract with the passenger that no one should have signed on our behalf

Nope this is a continual rant and a demand for compensation or discounts.

ScotRail continue to provide you with the service you pay your ticket for which is to get you from A to B and will compensate you in the normal fashion if delayed whether that be through a normal ticket or a season ticket although looking at the stats for your route they don’t look too bad so you’re looking for discounts and reductions where they aren’t due.

No one is denying the situation is currently grim but reducing pricing and subsequently stimulating demand is suicide and ultimately leads to the people screaming about the overcrowding screaming even more.

The thank you idea for once it’s sorted is a better idea or at the very most extra days on a season reducing pricing now in the middle of what is shaping up to be a capacity crisis is laughable coming from someone making such a big deal about capacity issues.