Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[NotATrainspott]

As a member of management within ScotRail, I’ll offer clarification on some of the points I’ve read over the past few pages. Unfortunately, I have been unable to read all the pages.

I’m unaware if this has been mentioned prior; however the CL385 fleet has currently been grounded by Hitachi. This is pending safety checks due to defective bolts which have been found on the units. As a result, no driver training will take place and hence the “test train running” paths for the training units within Millerhill EMU have been suspended UFN.
There has been much talk of the expected date for the CL385 to be “live” as such within the WTT. With honesty, ScotRail are still seeking clarification - our plan was for the E&G line to be fully EMU based for the May WTT of 2018. However, as you will be aware this has drastically been reversed and as such we are experiencing a shortage of units due to losing 4x 170/6 subs. In December 2018 we will also further lose 170/4 express units and as a result are urgently exploring other options.
It has been “well-advertised” that the current EG service is running short-formed. Unfortunately, we simply do not have enough rolling stock of DMU/EMU to run a fully formed service on the E&G. We have been able to implement further 4 car and 3 car EMU CL380s on the EG, however there are still diagrams running with only 3 car 170 DMU units.
Another key issue is the maintenance for EMU units; due to timetablinf restrictions, it is incredibly difficult for the CL380s to travel to and from Shields depot to be “swapped out” and therefore the mileage of the units vastly increases as soon as they are placed on an EG diagram. Once placed, the unit remains on the E&G for several days. This has put immense constraints on Maintenance Exams as the tolerance for CL380s does not allow for concession.
I can confirm ScotRail have been in talks regarding CL365 units potentially running on the E&G line for the Dec 18 WTT. This is on the basis that the CL385 units are not delivered and we lose further 170 DMUs. Our issues are mainly based around organising driver training / maintenance and route clearance. The most viable option would be for the CL365 to run only on the EG line (this quickens route clearance). However the EG line does not allow for flexibility with training trains to run in addition to CL385s - currently not an issue with the fleet grounded. However, rest assured talks are in place to ensure that further EMU (365) stock would be in place for Dec 18 TT to prevent further short formations.
The 365 would be restricted to 7 car formation on the EG. As discussed previously, the driver would arm the doors with the conductor disarming.

In terms of complaints regarding first class on the EG and further afield. ScotRail can only “declassify” services with the approval of Transport Scotland. The declassification of the EG has lead to constraints with 1st class provision on long distance services as diagrams are continually having to be altered. The planning is already in place should the EG continue to be declassified until the Cl385 are in operation on the TT.

With regards to the MAY TT 18, the current plans in place are for the current EMU units which turn at Cumbernauld, to instead terminate at Springburn. This will reduce the amount of traction required to sustain the regular frequency on the North Clyde route. As a result, services between Springburn and Cumbernauld would only be served by DMU stock via the GLQ-FKG/FKG-GLQ services. This is an unfortunate consequence in order to reduce the short formations.

The immense pressure and constraints are not felt lightly and rest assured all SR staff will be relieved when our CL385s finally come into play!

Are you sure it's a good idea to put something like this out on (essentially) social media? It seems like some of the issues you've raised might be commercially confidential. Rumours are one thing, but if someone is saying that they are an employee then it becomes a different matter.

 

[Class465fan]

365 restricted to 7cars? Would that mean that some units would lose the fourth carraige?

 

[bramling]

365 restricted to 7cars? Would that mean that some units would lose the fourth carraige?

From memory, I don't think this could readily be done. IIRC the equipment on the train is distributed over all four cars, with one trailer having the pantograph, transformer and the other having the compressor - as well as the accessible toilet. I'm open to correction on this, however reconfiguring to three cars would seem to require movement of equipment, which is an operation in itself.

 

[hexagon789]

As a member of management within ScotRail, I’ll offer clarification on some of the points I’ve read over the past few pages. Unfortunately, I have been unable to read all the pages.

I’m unaware if this has been mentioned prior; however the CL385 fleet has currently been grounded by Hitachi. This is pending safety checks due to defective bolts which have been found on the units. As a result, no driver training will take place and hence the “test train running” paths for the training units within Millerhill EMU have been suspended UFN.
There has been much talk of the expected date for the CL385 to be “live” as such within the WTT. With honesty, ScotRail are still seeking clarification - our plan was for the E&G line to be fully EMU based for the May WTT of 2018. However, as you will be aware this has drastically been reversed and as such we are experiencing a shortage of units due to losing 4x 170/6 subs. In December 2018 we will also further lose 170/4 express units and as a result are urgently exploring other options.
It has been “well-advertised” that the current EG service is running short-formed. Unfortunately, we simply do not have enough rolling stock of DMU/EMU to run a fully formed service on the E&G. We have been able to implement further 4 car and 3 car EMU CL380s on the EG, however there are still diagrams running with only 3 car 170 DMU units.
Another key issue is the maintenance for EMU units; due to timetablinf restrictions, it is incredibly difficult for the CL380s to travel to and from Shields depot to be “swapped out” and therefore the mileage of the units vastly increases as soon as they are placed on an EG diagram. Once placed, the unit remains on the E&G for several days. This has put immense constraints on Maintenance Exams as the tolerance for CL380s does not allow for concession.
I can confirm ScotRail have been in talks regarding CL365 units potentially running on the E&G line for the Dec 18 WTT. This is on the basis that the CL385 units are not delivered and we lose further 170 DMUs. Our issues are mainly based around organising driver training / maintenance and route clearance. The most viable option would be for the CL365 to run only on the EG line (this quickens route clearance). However the EG line does not allow for flexibility with training trains to run in addition to CL385s - currently not an issue with the fleet grounded. However, rest assured talks are in place to ensure that further EMU (365) stock would be in place for Dec 18 TT to prevent further short formations.
The 365 would be restricted to 7 car formation on the EG. As discussed previously, the driver would arm the doors with the conductor disarming.

In terms of complaints regarding first class on the EG and further afield. ScotRail can only “declassify” services with the approval of Transport Scotland. The declassification of the EG has lead to constraints with 1st class provision on long distance services as diagrams are continually having to be altered. The planning is already in place should the EG continue to be declassified until the Cl385 are in operation on the TT.

With regards to the MAY TT 18, the current plans in place are for the current EMU units which turn at Cumbernauld, to instead terminate at Springburn. This will reduce the amount of traction required to sustain the regular frequency on the North Clyde route. As a result, services between Springburn and Cumbernauld would only be served by DMU stock via the GLQ-FKG/FKG-GLQ services. This is an unfortunate consequence in order to reduce the short formations.

The immense pressure and constraints are not felt lightly and rest assured all SR staff will be relieved when our CL385s finally come into play!

Thank you very much for taking the time to clarify what's going on and what is going to be done/try to be done about it, very helpful.

 

[43096]

From memory, I don't think this could readily be done. IIRC the equipment on the train is distributed over all four cars, with one trailer having the pantograph, transformer and the other having the compressor - as well as the accessible toilet. I'm open to correction on this, however reconfiguring to three cars would seem to require movement of equipment, which is an operation in itself.

I don’t get why it even needs to be done. There are 7-car 380s on EG currently, total length approx 161m, 8-car 365 is approx 160m. Not sure what the issue is?

 

[hexagon789]

I don’t get why it even needs to be done. There are 7-car 380s on EG currently, total length approx 161m, 8-car 365 is approx 160m. Not sure what the issue is?

I was wondering that myself, then though I had the lengths wrong but as you could form 365s are shorter than 380s. It does seem a bit strange.

 

[Class465fan]

I don’t get why it even needs to be done. There are 7-car 380s on EG currently, total length approx 161m, 8-car 365 is approx 160m. Not sure what the issue is?

Maybe he doesn't know that the 365s are 20m units. I really don't see the reason to shorten some of them to three cars if an 8-car 365 is the same length as a 7-car 380.

 

[hexagon789]

Maybe he doesn't know that the 365s are 20m units. I really don't see the reason to shorten some of them to three cars if an 8-car 365 is the same length as a 7-car 380.

Possibly, I mean I wasn't sure so others might not have any idea at all. I can't see any reason to shorten them either if an 8-car 365 is 1m shorter than a 7-car 380 formation.

 

[Southsider]

As a member of management within ScotRail, I’ll offer clarification on some of the points I’ve read over the past few pages. Unfortunately, I have been unable to read all the pages.

I’m unaware if this has been mentioned prior; however the CL385 fleet has currently been grounded by Hitachi. This is pending safety checks due to defective bolts which have been found on the units. As a result, no driver training will take place and hence the “test train running” paths for the training units within Millerhill EMU have been suspended UFN.
There has been much talk of the expected date for the CL385 to be “live” as such within the WTT. With honesty, ScotRail are still seeking clarification - our plan was for the E&G line to be fully EMU based for the May WTT of 2018. However, as you will be aware this has drastically been reversed and as such we are experiencing a shortage of units due to losing 4x 170/6 subs. In December 2018 we will also further lose 170/4 express units and as a result are urgently exploring other options.
It has been “well-advertised” that the current EG service is running short-formed. Unfortunately, we simply do not have enough rolling stock of DMU/EMU to run a fully formed service on the E&G. We have been able to implement further 4 car and 3 car EMU CL380s on the EG, however there are still diagrams running with only 3 car 170 DMU units.
Another key issue is the maintenance for EMU units; due to timetablinf restrictions, it is incredibly difficult for the CL380s to travel to and from Shields depot to be “swapped out” and therefore the mileage of the units vastly increases as soon as they are placed on an EG diagram. Once placed, the unit remains on the E&G for several days. This has put immense constraints on Maintenance Exams as the tolerance for CL380s does not allow for concession.
I can confirm ScotRail have been in talks regarding CL365 units potentially running on the E&G line for the Dec 18 WTT. This is on the basis that the CL385 units are not delivered and we lose further 170 DMUs. Our issues are mainly based around organising driver training / maintenance and route clearance. The most viable option would be for the CL365 to run only on the EG line (this quickens route clearance). However the EG line does not allow for flexibility with training trains to run in addition to CL385s - currently not an issue with the fleet grounded. However, rest assured talks are in place to ensure that further EMU (365) stock would be in place for Dec 18 TT to prevent further short formations.
The 365 would be restricted to 7 car formation on the EG. As discussed previously, the driver would arm the doors with the conductor disarming.

In terms of complaints regarding first class on the EG and further afield. ScotRail can only “declassify” services with the approval of Transport Scotland. The declassification of the EG has lead to constraints with 1st class provision on long distance services as diagrams are continually having to be altered. The planning is already in place should the EG continue to be declassified until the Cl385 are in operation on the TT.

With regards to the MAY TT 18, the current plans in place are for the current EMU units which turn at Cumbernauld, to instead terminate at Springburn. This will reduce the amount of traction required to sustain the regular frequency on the North Clyde route. As a result, services between Springburn and Cumbernauld would only be served by DMU stock via the GLQ-FKG/FKG-GLQ services. This is an unfortunate consequence in order to reduce the short formations.

The immense pressure and constraints are not felt lightly and rest assured all SR staff will be relieved when our CL385s finally come into play!

Many thanks for such an informative post. As others have said, the overall length of an eight car 365 is less than a seven car 380 or 385 so why the need to shorten some of them? On the face of it they are good to go as is. I’m surprised at the wait until the December time table change, phasing them in earlier would achieve the aim of having the route electrified closer to the (currently public) date and also minimise recommissioning costs by removing them from storage and the associated deterioration. It would also alleviate short forming and allow planned cascades to take place.

 

[InOban]

I see no reason why any of what was stated should be commercially sensitive. It's little different to a car manufacturer issuing a recall.

However I am surprised that there is no mention of the visibility issue; it won't take long to replace substandard bolts,but redesigning the front end will be longer. Much longer.

 

[cj_1985]

Maybe this wouldn't have happened if Hitachi focussed on the design and manufacturer of the trains, and liasing with customer and trade unions, rather than Buggering about with a 'made in the north East' sticker

 

[Class465fan]

I see no reason why any of what was stated should be commercially sensitive. It's little different to a car manufacturer issuing a recall.

However I am surprised that there is no mention of the visibility issue; it won't take long to replace substandard bolts,but redesigning the front end will be longer. Much longer.

Could it take months or a year to redesign the entire front??

 

[hexagon789]

but redesigning the front end will be longer. Much longer.

Which is unfortunate, but definitely necessary.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Maybe this wouldn't have happened if Hitachi focussed on the design and manufacturer of the trains, and liasing with customer and trade unions, rather than Buggering about with a 'made in the north East' sticker

Some of the 385s (the first 7) were built in Japan.
It would be interesting to know if the fault is on all 385s or just the Newton Aycliffe ones.
You'd expect the parts to be the same wherever they are assembled.

 

[hexagon789]

Some of the 385s (the first 7) were built in Japan.
It would be interesting to know if the fault is on all 385s or just the Newton Aycliffe ones.
You'd expect the parts to be the same wherever they are assembled.

I'm pretty sure they all have the same windscreen, therefore the issue will be present in Japan and Newton Aycliffe units alike.

 

[D365]

Maybe this wouldn't have happened if Hitachi focussed on the design and manufacturer of the trains, and liasing with customer and trade unions, rather than Buggering about with a 'made in the north East' sticker

I doubt that marketing would have taken significant resource away from their engineering teams. If it had, there would be something seriously amiss.

 

[TRAX]

Could it take months or a year to redesign the entire front??

Not a year. Months including remanufacturing and re-testing.

 

[hexagon789]

Not a year. Months including remanufacturing and re-testing.

Well that's one small consolation, I thought I might take a year.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm pretty sure they all have the same windscreen, therefore the issue will be present in Japan and Newton Aycliffe units alike.

Actually I meant the "bolt" problem which apparently is the current reason for grounding the fleet.

 

[hexagon789]

Actually I meant the "bolt" problem which apparently is the current reason for grounding the fleet.

Bolt problem, could you elaborate? I've onlyheard about the windscreen issues.

 

[380101]

Bolt problem, could you elaborate? I've onlyheard about the windscreen issues.

If you scroll back a couple of pages, a ScotRail manager has posted a lengthy explanation of where the 385s are at. He mentions that all 385s are "grounded" until further notice due to a defect with some of the bolts - i believe they are in the bogies. This is a recently discovered issue to add on top of the windscreen issues.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I did wonder if it was simply obfuscation. Bolts sound a deal easier than a front end with a flatter screen. If SR are looking at Dec 18 timetable replacements for the 385s this is a serious problem. Well one of them is. Or both.

 

[Failed Unit]

365 restricted to 7cars? Would that mean that some units would lose the fourth carraige?

They wouldn’t need to. They would probably lock a coach out of use as has happened on great northern in the past. (For a fault).

 

[TRAX]

If you scroll back a couple of pages, a ScotRail manager has posted a lengthy explanation of where the 385s are at. He mentions that all 385s are "grounded" until further notice due to a defect with some of the bolts - i believe they are in the bogies. This is a recently discovered issue to add on top of the windscreen issues.

Looks like these have been built on the cheap !

 

[coppercapped]

I see no reason why any of what was stated should be commercially sensitive. It's little different to a car manufacturer issuing a recall.

However I am surprised that there is no mention of the visibility issue; it won't take long to replace substandard bolts,but redesigning the front end will be longer. Much longer.

I wonder if it will be necessary to redesign the front end.

Looking at photographs of the body shell when under construction, for example here, it is clear that the glass is held in a frame which in turn is fixed to the front of the train. This is a sensible design solution as there will be occasions when the windscreen has to be replaced if it is cracked in service by flying ballast or similar and it will have been designed so the screen can be changed in a hour or two to minimise down time.

So essentially the frame will need to be re-designed to fit the existing profile and fixing points in the cab front but carry flat, or at least minimally curved, glass. It may not look pretty... It should be possible to design and build the first test specimens in a month or two. How long it would take to re-work the fleet depends on the rate that Hitachi can ramp up the production.

 

[Mingulay]

As a member of management within ScotRail, I’ll offer clarification on some of the points I’ve read over the past few pages. Unfortunately, I have been unable to read all the pages.

I’m unaware if this has been mentioned prior; however the CL385 fleet has currently been grounded by Hitachi. This is pending safety checks due to defective bolts which have been found on the units. As a result, no driver training will take place and hence the “test train running” paths for the training units within Millerhill EMU have been suspended UFN.
There has been much talk of the expected date for the CL385 to be “live” as such within the WTT. With honesty, ScotRail are still seeking clarification - our plan was for the E&G line to be fully EMU based for the May WTT of 2018. However, as you will be aware this has drastically been reversed and as such we are experiencing a shortage of units due to losing 4x 170/6 subs. In December 2018 we will also further lose 170/4 express units and as a result are urgently exploring other options.
It has been “well-advertised” that the current EG service is running short-formed. Unfortunately, we simply do not have enough rolling stock of DMU/EMU to run a fully formed service on the E&G. We have been able to implement further 4 car and 3 car EMU CL380s on the EG, however there are still diagrams running with only 3 car 170 DMU units.
Another key issue is the maintenance for EMU units; due to timetablinf restrictions, it is incredibly difficult for the CL380s to travel to and from Shields depot to be “swapped out” and therefore the mileage of the units vastly increases as soon as they are placed on an EG diagram. Once placed, the unit remains on the E&G for several days. This has put immense constraints on Maintenance Exams as the tolerance for CL380s does not allow for concession.
I can confirm ScotRail have been in talks regarding CL365 units potentially running on the E&G line for the Dec 18 WTT. This is on the basis that the CL385 units are not delivered and we lose further 170 DMUs. Our issues are mainly based around organising driver training / maintenance and route clearance. The most viable option would be for the CL365 to run only on the EG line (this quickens route clearance). However the EG line does not allow for flexibility with training trains to run in addition to CL385s - currently not an issue with the fleet grounded. However, rest assured talks are in place to ensure that further EMU (365) stock would be in place for Dec 18 TT to prevent further short formations.
The 365 would be restricted to 7 car formation on the EG. As discussed previously, the driver would arm the doors with the conductor disarming.

In terms of complaints regarding first class on the EG and further afield. ScotRail can only “declassify” services with the approval of Transport Scotland. The declassification of the EG has lead to constraints with 1st class provision on long distance services as diagrams are continually having to be altered. The planning is already in place should the EG continue to be declassified until the Cl385 are in operation on the TT.

With regards to the MAY TT 18, the current plans in place are for the current EMU units which turn at Cumbernauld, to instead terminate at Springburn. This will reduce the amount of traction required to sustain the regular frequency on the North Clyde route. As a result, services between Springburn and Cumbernauld would only be served by DMU stock via the GLQ-FKG/FKG-GLQ services. This is an unfortunate consequence in order to reduce the short formations.

The immense pressure and constraints are not felt lightly and rest assured all SR staff will be relieved when our CL385s finally come into play!

Thank you for shedding some light on this evolving management problem and I am certain the pressures are being felt.

As an affected regular passenger, rather than an informed rail enthusiast with technical knowledge. The language used does contain a fair amount of Train speak. Can I assume that a more basic statement has today been released to the mainstream media by Scotrail and Transport Scotland as to the implications this has for the traveling public?

The publicity in stations is still advising new electric trains arriving 2017. Clearly not now happening. I appreciate you are still trying to fire fight the loss of rolling stock to maintain a service in the central belt routes affected. All fully understood.

The bottom line here is when passengers should have now been enjoying an enhanced service , they are and potentially will be enduring a poorer service with more overcrowding , potentially throughout 2018 ?

I would suggest the only proper response to this situation to genuinely address the likely impact on your customers is to implement a fares reduction on the routes affected until the service is consistent with "scotlands best ever railway" . Then it would be reasonable to to charge the recently imposed fare increase only when the heralded improved services are fully operational.

Such a gesture would give Scotrail some much needed goodwill from the long suffering passengers ,whilst the pain of the fix is endured.

 

[hexagon789]

If you scroll back a couple of pages, a ScotRail manager has posted a lengthy explanation of where the 385s are at. He mentions that all 385s are "grounded" until further notice due to a defect with some of the bolts - i believe they are in the bogies. This is a recently discovered issue to add on top of the windscreen issues.

Oh wow, that doesn't sound good at all!

 

[adrock1976]

As a member of management within ScotRail, I’ll offer clarification on some of the points I’ve read over the past few pages. Unfortunately, I have been unable to read all the pages.

I’m unaware if this has been mentioned prior; however the CL385 fleet has currently been grounded by Hitachi. This is pending safety checks due to defective bolts which have been found on the units. As a result, no driver training will take place and hence the “test train running” paths for the training units within Millerhill EMU have been suspended UFN.
There has been much talk of the expected date for the CL385 to be “live” as such within the WTT. With honesty, ScotRail are still seeking clarification - our plan was for the E&G line to be fully EMU based for the May WTT of 2018. However, as you will be aware this has drastically been reversed and as such we are experiencing a shortage of units due to losing 4x 170/6 subs. In December 2018 we will also further lose 170/4 express units and as a result are urgently exploring other options.
It has been “well-advertised” that the current EG service is running short-formed. Unfortunately, we simply do not have enough rolling stock of DMU/EMU to run a fully formed service on the E&G. We have been able to implement further 4 car and 3 car EMU CL380s on the EG, however there are still diagrams running with only 3 car 170 DMU units.
Another key issue is the maintenance for EMU units; due to timetablinf restrictions, it is incredibly difficult for the CL380s to travel to and from Shields depot to be “swapped out” and therefore the mileage of the units vastly increases as soon as they are placed on an EG diagram. Once placed, the unit remains on the E&G for several days. This has put immense constraints on Maintenance Exams as the tolerance for CL380s does not allow for concession.
I can confirm ScotRail have been in talks regarding CL365 units potentially running on the E&G line for the Dec 18 WTT. This is on the basis that the CL385 units are not delivered and we lose further 170 DMUs. Our issues are mainly based around organising driver training / maintenance and route clearance. The most viable option would be for the CL365 to run only on the EG line (this quickens route clearance). However the EG line does not allow for flexibility with training trains to run in addition to CL385s - currently not an issue with the fleet grounded. However, rest assured talks are in place to ensure that further EMU (365) stock would be in place for Dec 18 TT to prevent further short formations.
The 365 would be restricted to 7 car formation on the EG. As discussed previously, the driver would arm the doors with the conductor disarming.

In terms of complaints regarding first class on the EG and further afield. ScotRail can only “declassify” services with the approval of Transport Scotland. The declassification of the EG has lead to constraints with 1st class provision on long distance services as diagrams are continually having to be altered. The planning is already in place should the EG continue to be declassified until the Cl385 are in operation on the TT.

With regards to the MAY TT 18, the current plans in place are for the current EMU units which turn at Cumbernauld, to instead terminate at Springburn. This will reduce the amount of traction required to sustain the regular frequency on the North Clyde route. As a result, services between Springburn and Cumbernauld would only be served by DMU stock via the GLQ-FKG/FKG-GLQ services. This is an unfortunate consequence in order to reduce the short formations.

The immense pressure and constraints are not felt lightly and rest assured all SR staff will be relieved when our CL385s finally come into play!

Thanks very much for clarifying the situation.

Regarding the Springburn - What's it called? Cumbernauld section, will the frequency be every 30 minutes (Mon-Sat) Dumbarton Central - Springburn via Bellgrove, with alternate trains extending to Cumbernauld every 60 minutes? The Glasgow QS - Falkirk Grahamston runs every 60 minutes (Mon-Sat), and is roughly 10 minutes or so behind one of the electric trains. Connections from the electric trains could be made at Springburn, and would maintain the present 30 minute frequency to Cumbernauld.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looking at photographs of the body shell when under construction, for example here, it is clear that the glass is held in a frame which in turn is fixed to the front of the train. This is a sensible design solution as there will be occasions when the windscreen has to be replaced if it is cracked in service by flying ballast or similar and it will have been designed so the screen can be changed in a hour or two to minimise down time.

Pair of glasses bolted on the front to allow for a flat window in essentially the same frame like those Skoda locomotives in Czechia?

Would be pig-ugly but the things are hardly pretty to begin with.

Czech Skoda built locomotive with "a pair of glasses" for the windscreen, looking a bit like a Minion or something.

 

[Class465fan]

All aboard the 'minion' train