Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[TRAX]

Even on a sharp curve the signal would appear on the flat part of a 442 windscreen. To appear on the curved 90 degree part, a signal would need to be at a hard left which is impossible.

 

[Domh245]

Forgive me but how so, I could be completely wrong but wouldn't one view look out of the corner at a signal on a curve perhaps?

Yes, but on a 442, the windscreen is flat for almost the entire forward facing width, before a 90° bend and the side part - even on a severe curve you shouldn't be looking out of the curved part of the windscreen to sight the signal as you would be looking near enough sideways. The 385 seems to have the curved part beginning far further into the drivers normal field of view, which is the issue.

 

[TRAX]

Yes, but on a 442, the windscreen is flat for almost the entire forward facing width, before a 90° bend and the side part - even on a severe curve you shouldn't be looking out of the curved part of the windscreen to sight the signal as you would be looking near enough sideways. The 385 seems to have the curved part beginning far further into the drivers normal field of view, which is the issue.

The *entire* width of the 385 windscreen is curved, as is obvious on various pictures of the units where the reflections are clearly distorted.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, but on a 442, the windscreen is flat for almost the entire forward facing width, before a 90° bend and the side part - even on a severe curve you shouldn't be looking out of the curved part of the windscreen to sight the signal as you would be looking near enough sideways. The 385 seems to have the curved part beginning far further into the drivers normal field of view, which is the issue.

I see, that helps my understanding of the matter. So take it then that by fitting totally flat windscreens the night vision issue will hopefully go away then?

 

[hexagon789]

The *entire* width of the 385 windscreen is curved, as is obvious on various pictures of the units where the reflections are clearly distorted.

I keep wondering why curved windscreens were specified, surely flat ones would've been cheaper?

 

[gsnedders]

I keep wondering why curved windscreens were specified, surely flat ones would've been cheaper?

Presumably to minimise the difference to the non-gangwayed AT200.

 

[hexagon789]

Presumably to minimise the difference to the non-gangwayed AT200.

In the long run though, it would have saved money correcting the issue.

 

[Southsider]

In the long run though, it would have saved money correcting the issue.

But they didn’t know they had an issue.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I believe the intention is to modify the cab to allow for a flat window.

I imagine that will take a while and need crashworthiness re-proving, I'd certainly want that if I were driving (I'm a retired physician BTW). I did note the 442 is flat with curved extremities. Is the 385 the first train in the world with this sort of screen?

 

[hexagon789]

I imagine that will take a while and need crashworthiness re-proving, I'd certainly want that if I were driving (I'm a retired physician BTW). I did note the 442 is flat with curved extremities. Is the 385 the first train in the world with this sort of screen?

I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

 

[TRAX]

I keep wondering why curved windscreens were specified, surely flat ones would've been cheaper?

They were specified simply because they are adapted to the overall shape of the front end.

I imagine that will take a while and need crashworthiness re-proving, I'd certainly want that if I were driving (I'm a retired physician BTW). I did note the 442 is flat with curved extremities. Is the 385 the first train in the world with this sort of screen?

With this degree of curvature on such a small surface, yes. And there's not a lot of countries with windscreens that small.

 

[hexagon789]

They were specified simply because they are adapted to the overall shape of the front end.

That's what I thought it was down to aesthetics. Can't say it improves the front end anyway.

 

[TRAX]

What you need to get rid of is the gangway, it's as simple as...

 

[hexagon789]

What you need to get rid of is the gangway, it's as simple as...

Might even make the front end less ugly

 

[mcmad]

I thought it was stated many pages ago by someone who'd been in the cab that the windscreen wasn't curved at all, that it was an optical illusion?

 

[hexagon789]

I thought it was stated many pages ago by someone who'd been in the cab that the windscreen wasn't curved at all, that it was an optical illusion?

I recall that, but I never understood the answer to that argument, if a definitive answer was even reached that is.

 

[TRAX]

I thought it was stated many pages ago by someone who'd been in the cab that the windscreen wasn't curved at all, that it was an optical illusion?

Have a close look IRL or even on pictures...

 

[hexagon789]

Have a close look IRL or even on pictures...

It looks distinctly curved

 

[hexagon789]

Unless that's an primal illusion of some sort.

 

[TRAX]

I think the curve is sharper at the top than at the bottom.

 

[hexagon789]

I think the curve is sharper at the top than at the bottom.

I just think it looks curry to be honest!

 

[D365]

is it not the case that the 170s displaced by the HSTs will simply go off-lease to save cash, than be used to help with the shortages caused by the late arrival of the 385s?

I've completely forgotten about the status of the five units that Southern had intended to convert, but the rest are all accounted for.

 

[hexagon789]

Possibly it's been said above, but I read in another thread of a rumour that 10 off-lease 365s are to go North to cover for the 385s.

 

[380101]

I thought it was stated many pages ago by someone who'd been in the cab that the windscreen wasn't curved at all, that it was an optical illusion?

Having spoken with one of the 385 Driver trainers, he describes the screen as having about 8inches of flat screen and then it curves to the outside.

 

[Kite159]

365s have I think always worked DOO on GN/SE, so maybe don't have guard's panels.
If they need rewiring like 319s did, that would rule them out for Scotrail, at least on E&G.

Could in theory the 365s be operated using the "Bells" method, driver releases the doors and is told by the guard to close them from the opposite cab? (similar to how the 165/166s operate when on Basingstokes/North Downs workings)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could in theory the 365s be operated using the "Bells" method, driver releases the doors and is told by the guard to close them from the opposite cab? (similar to how the 165/166s operate when on Basingstokes/North Downs workings)

Also used on Voyagers.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I just think it looks curry to be honest!

No wonder Hitachi are feeling the heat then...

 

[hexagon789]

No wonder Hitachi are feeling the heat then...

Whoops! Should read curvy!

 

[SR001]

As a member of management within ScotRail, I’ll offer clarification on some of the points I’ve read over the past few pages. Unfortunately, I have been unable to read all the pages.

I’m unaware if this has been mentioned prior; however the CL385 fleet has currently been grounded by Hitachi. This is pending safety checks due to defective bolts which have been found on the units. As a result, no driver training will take place and hence the “test train running” paths for the training units within Millerhill EMU have been suspended UFN.
There has been much talk of the expected date for the CL385 to be “live” as such within the WTT. With honesty, ScotRail are still seeking clarification - our plan was for the E&G line to be fully EMU based for the May WTT of 2018. However, as you will be aware this has drastically been reversed and as such we are experiencing a shortage of units due to losing 4x 170/6 subs. In December 2018 we will also further lose 170/4 express units and as a result are urgently exploring other options.
It has been “well-advertised” that the current EG service is running short-formed. Unfortunately, we simply do not have enough rolling stock of DMU/EMU to run a fully formed service on the E&G. We have been able to implement further 4 car and 3 car EMU CL380s on the EG, however there are still diagrams running with only 3 car 170 DMU units.
Another key issue is the maintenance for EMU units; due to timetablinf restrictions, it is incredibly difficult for the CL380s to travel to and from Shields depot to be “swapped out” and therefore the mileage of the units vastly increases as soon as they are placed on an EG diagram. Once placed, the unit remains on the E&G for several days. This has put immense constraints on Maintenance Exams as the tolerance for CL380s does not allow for concession.
I can confirm ScotRail have been in talks regarding CL365 units potentially running on the E&G line for the Dec 18 WTT. This is on the basis that the CL385 units are not delivered and we lose further 170 DMUs. Our issues are mainly based around organising driver training / maintenance and route clearance. The most viable option would be for the CL365 to run only on the EG line (this quickens route clearance). However the EG line does not allow for flexibility with training trains to run in addition to CL385s - currently not an issue with the fleet grounded. However, rest assured talks are in place to ensure that further EMU (365) stock would be in place for Dec 18 TT to prevent further short formations.
The 365 would be restricted to 7 car formation on the EG. As discussed previously, the driver would arm the doors with the conductor disarming.

In terms of complaints regarding first class on the EG and further afield. ScotRail can only “declassify” services with the approval of Transport Scotland. The declassification of the EG has lead to constraints with 1st class provision on long distance services as diagrams are continually having to be altered. The planning is already in place should the EG continue to be declassified until the Cl385 are in operation on the TT.

With regards to the MAY TT 18, the current plans in place are for the current EMU units which turn at Cumbernauld, to instead terminate at Springburn. This will reduce the amount of traction required to sustain the regular frequency on the North Clyde route. As a result, services between Springburn and Cumbernauld would only be served by DMU stock via the GLQ-FKG/FKG-GLQ services. This is an unfortunate consequence in order to reduce the short formations.

The immense pressure and constraints are not felt lightly and rest assured all SR staff will be relieved when our CL385s finally come into play!

 

[swaldman]

SR001: Thank you so very much for dropping in here to add some clarity.
Assuming that your posting here is sanctioned, then please feed up the chain that it is appreciated!