Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[Failed Unit]

No I was simply meaning that Scotrail passengers consider them as an inferior replacement to what they have. (Not for me to judge) - but GTR passengers considering their replacement as inferior.

Ie. 700s are worse than 365s
365s are worse than 170s

Therefore imagine how Scotrail passengers would feel if they had to suffer the 700s.

Anyway. Don’t want to labour this point. Not disputing your point my comment was how passengers view the trains. Scotrail is used to a higher standard and I definitely would not wish them to join the race to the bottom the South East TOCs are having. I guess whatever happens sadly for Scotrail passengers unless the 385s issue are fixed it will be “ any train is better than no train”

 

[SC318250]

365s on to Anglia

90 and shortened mark 3 on E&G

If only

Would power supply be strong enough for 90s operating a full E&G service?

 

[Clansman]

No I was simply meaning that Scotrail passengers consider them as an inferior replacement to what they have. (Not for me to judge) - but GTR passengers considering their replacement as inferior.

Ie. 700s are worse than 365s
365s are worse than 170s

Therefore imagine how Scotrail passengers would feel if they had to suffer the 700s.

Anyway. Don’t want to labour this point. Not disputing your point my comment was how passengers view the trains. Scotrail is used to a higher standard and I definitely would not wish them to join the race to the bottom the South East TOCs are having. I guess whatever happens sadly for Scotrail passengers unless the 385s issue are fixed it will be “ any train is better than no train”

Fair enough, and I completely agree with you on that - and thank goodness we're not getting the 700s!

In addition to what you highlighted about the higher standard ScotRail is used to, I fear this would only work against them if they introduced 365s as an interim, on any route, let alone EG.

 

[Christmas]

as mentioned, all DOO mirrors and monitors have been removed on the Ayr line. Some of the equipment was reused on the Paisley Canal line when it was electrified in 2012.

You mean mirrors? These were all brand new to the Canal line.

 

[170401]

How are passengers already reacting to no 1st class.

Most of the 6 or 7 passengers who actually pay for full price 1st class tickets turned up, tutted loudly whilst shaking their heads dramatically, then trotted off to the booking office for their refunds.

 

[Failed Unit]

Most of the 6 or 7 passengers who actually pay for full price 1st class tickets turned up, tutted loudly whilst shaking their heads dramatically, then trotted off to the booking office for their refunds.

No change there then from the times trains such as 170472 turned up. Never paid myself but often got it as part of an AP. Some trains had 1st in one unit the trolley in the unit without. Never understood why it was such a big deal on a short journey but to some it was. I hope the get the 385s sorted soon but it does sound a touch challenging.

 

[D365]

The 365s are decent units with modern 3-phase AC traction equipment with a decent amount of power plus regenerative braking, a pair 8x20 is about the same as 7x23 so will fit GLQ ok. Plus they are available and don't need much to make them fit for service.

I’d have to disagree on the ‘modern’ there. Compared to the 321s yes, but compared to anything from the last 20 years the 365 traction package is totally obsolete.

I’m not familiar with the Scottish routes so whether they can be cleared depends on whether the signalling might be affected by EMC harmonic interference. I imagine that might have been one of the factors for GWR changing their mind on the 365s.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Of the EMUs available now or shortly, whilst from an enthusiasts point of view 365s would be interesting, they surely pose too many problems unless the 385 problems are really long-term - 365s would require drivers, guards and maintenance staff re-training, and they've never been cleared anywhere on ScR. If they can't run DOO without station modifications then they are very limited as well.

My guess would be that only 380s would be politically acceptable as a temporary alternative on the E&G.

I can't see taking on 313s or 315s being acceptable anywhere - and they would be very limited as to where they could be sensibly deployed - there's probably only another 4 or 5 Inverclyde 380 diagrams that can be converted.

More 321s would be ideal to free up 380s, but it doesn't look like there's enough of those currently surplus to release sufficient 380s for the E&G. As an alternative to 321s, 317s might work - but again none of them surplus just now. Best thought I can come up with would be 365s reinstated with Greater Anglia (which at least is another Abellio company, so some potential for cooperation) to release either 321s or 317s - but that would still require some retraining on 365s, albeit at Greater Anglia and on routes they have at least partially worked over before (did they ever work on Anglia services when at WAGN)?

There's also probably a handful of units could be freed up at ScR by switching quieter 6-car workings over to 4-cars - there's certainly a strange 6-car working to Ayrshire before the evening peak, which I can't imagine needs 6-cars. And possibly some of the North Electrics could be switched to shorter formations, allowing 318s to be released for Inverclyde/Ayrshire.

 

[Failed Unit]

I agree. Unless Hitachi come out and say. No chance this will be sorted until 2019 other EMU options are a non starter. I can’t see Anglia stepping in with cascade to help. I feel for Scotrail. We dont know everything but I dont see a potential resolution date. Hard to do a plan b if you don’t know how long it will be for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree. Unless Hitachi come out and say. No chance this will be sorted until 2019 other EMU options are a non starter. I can’t see Anglia stepping in with cascade to help. I feel for Scotrail. We dont know everything but I dont see a potential resolution date. Hard to do a plan b if you don’t know how long it will be for.

I know this would be unpopular here, but would it make sense to bustitute the Far North Line to release a few 158s until the issue is resolved? It's not like a bus can't exceed, never mind meet, the timings.

 

[mcmad]

I know this would be unpopular here, but would it make sense to bustitute the Far North Line to release a few 158s until the issue is resolved? It's not like a bus can't exceed, never mind meet, the timings.

I suspect politically for TS\SG that would be a step too far and be looked on locally as the thin edge of the wedge to closure.

Scotrail have to do something, they are at breaking point currently with unit availability never mind by the summer when theyve lost more units still.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect politically for TS\SG that would be a step too far and be looked on locally as the thin edge of the wedge to closure.

Scotrail have to do something, they are at breaking point currently with unit availability never mind by the summer when theyve lost more units still.

Any LHCS available for hire? A couple of charter rakes could be used to operate 67 or 68-hauled (or electric loco-hauled, even) peak extras?

 

[hexagon789]

90 and shortened mark 3 on E&G

Nah, Shove Duffs and Mk3s. Much better.

 

[diamond chap]

This article (https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/new...-angus/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter) refers to a delay to the introduction of new services to Monifieth, Carnoustie and Arbroarth due to the delay in the delivery of the 385s. It quotes the local MSP as saying:

"The roll-out is entirely dependent on when the electric trains come into service, thereby freeing up the necessary rolling stock for this part of the country, and I am advised that because of windscreen and software problems with the Hitachi’s that won’t now happen until December, which is a real blow, particularly for would be commuters from Monifieth who were expecting to be able to access in the region of 32 trains a day within a few weeks"

So it seems that a) we're now looking at December for the introduction of enough of the 385s to release stock for use elsewhere and b) there are software problems as well as the windscreen problems.

 

[gingertom]

365s on to Anglia

90 and shortened mark 3 on E&G

If only

Would power supply be strong enough for 90s operating a full E&G service?

one way to find out

 

[Maxfly]

I know this would be unpopular here, but would it make sense to bustitute the Far North Line to release a few 158s until the issue is resolved? It's not like a bus can't exceed, never mind meet, the timings.

Just remember bustitution doesn't mean they run the same times as the actual bus service, the rail replacement would have significantly longer a journey to catch the stations required.... I assume Altnabreac would be missed out though

 

[MatthewRead]

one way to find out

Nah, Shove Duffs and Mk3s. Much better.

What are Duffs?

 

[MatthewRead]

one way to find out

90 push pull sets did use to work the North Berwick line until 2005.

 

[Northhighland]

I know this would be unpopular here, but would it make sense to bustitute the Far North Line to release a few 158s until the issue is resolved? It's not like a bus can't exceed, never mind meet, the timings.

Locally that would not cause to many practical difficulties in Caithness. However it would significantly disrupt all the commuter services in and out of inverness that go as far as Ardgay. Would be politically suicidal. Really hard to see the political cost being worth paying for the limited practical benefit.

Seems to me the best solution is get the 385 issue sorted a lot quicker than we are currently seeing.

 

[47802]

Locally that would not cause to many practical difficulties in Caithness. However it would significantly disrupt all the commuter services in and out of inverness that go as far as Ardgay. Would be politically suicidal. Really hard to see the political cost being worth paying for the limited practical benefit.

Seems to me the best solution is get the 385 issue sorted a lot quicker than we are currently seeing.

That may be easier said than done. You could of course look at partial bus substitution maintain some services at the Inverness end and reduce the number of units required, but as you say I think would be politically difficult and not bode well for the future of that line.

 

[Northhighland]

This article (https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/new...-angus/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter) refers to a delay to the introduction of new services to Monifieth, Carnoustie and Arbroarth due to the delay in the delivery of the 385s. It quotes the local MSP as saying:

"The roll-out is entirely dependent on when the electric trains come into service, thereby freeing up the necessary rolling stock for this part of the country, and I am advised that because of windscreen and software problems with the Hitachi’s that won’t now happen until December, which is a real blow, particularly for would be commuters from Monifieth who were expecting to be able to access in the region of 32 trains a day within a few weeks"

So it seems that a) we're now looking at December for the introduction of enough of the 385s to release stock for use elsewhere and b) there are software problems as well as the windscreen problems.

Appears to be a changing picture. Also looks like the full extent of the problems are leaking out, what else is not being made available to the public? December seems a long way away. By then these new trains will be coming on for 2 years late. Why so late in finding software problems? That is strange.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

That may be easier said than done. You could of course look at partial bus substitution maintain some services at the Inverness end and reduce the number of units required, but as you say I think would be politically difficult and not bode well for the future of that line.

If they really had to look at bustitution, then surely the obvious starting point would be to temporarily withdraw the Glasgow - Maryhill/Anniesland and Glasgow - Falkirk Grahamston services and arrange ticket acceptance with Firstbus? Neither seems particularly critical to the overall network and are easily subbed by buses. The Kilmarnock - Ayr service also seems like a waste of a scarce DMU, but no idea how you'd untangle it from the Glasgow - Kilmarnock and the Ayr - Stranraer services.

 

[380101]

If they really had to look at bustitution, then surely the obvious starting point would be to temporarily withdraw the Glasgow - Maryhill/Anniesland and Glasgow - Falkirk Grahamston services and arrange ticket acceptance with Firstbus? Neither seems particularly critical to the overall network and are easily subbed by buses. The Kilmarnock - Ayr service also seems like a waste of a scarce DMU, but no idea how you'd untangle it from the Glasgow - Kilmarnock and the Ayr - Stranraer services.

You cant "untangle" the diesel services from Kilmarnock- Ayr as they are not Kilmarnock- Ayr services. They are Glasgow/Kilmarnock - Girvan/Stranraer services. Its not a waste of a scarce DMU as they could do with increasing the services between the 2 biggest towns in Ayrshire. They already could as the DMU sits at Ayr for an hour several times a day doing nothing.

 

[dm.701]

Perhaps some North Clyde/Argyle line services that run with 6 car 318/320/334 sets all day could be split with those units covering Inverclyde/Ayrshire diagrams releasing a few 380s for the E & G.

Might also help to temporarily scrap a couple of services, eg. the limited Glasgow QS - Dundee stoppers/Glasgow Central - Edinburgh via Carstairs freeing up a few more 170/380s for the E & G.

I don't think the Anniesland service should be bustituted, perhaps hourly during the day and half hourly in the peaks but that would only free up a single 156.

 

[NotATrainspott]

It's more politically and operationally acceptable to step down capacity on the normal number of services than it is to cut them. Lots of these 'unimportant' services are much more important, relatively, than others. For instance, cutting the via-Carstairs service would cut an important link between Edinburgh and Motherwell down to the normal XC frequency. An hourly service going to two-hourly makes much more of a difference than a 4tph going to 3tph to 2tph. Also, the time trains are needed the most is in the peaks, so any off-peak cuts might be worthless unless they're absolutely required to minimise the number in the depot during the peak.

In terms of really, really short notice capacity, there might be some Mk2s and locomotives lying around to replace some other Fife Circle DMUs.

 

[route101]

In an ideal situation you would have a rake of mk3s and mk2s that could be drafted in to help . The fife circle set could used .

 

[mde]

In an ideal situation you would have a rake of mk3s and mk2s that could be drafted in to help . The fife circle set could used .

Might not be the most accessible for passengers with disabilities though… the existing LHCS is certainly advertised as ‘inaccessible’ by ScotRail.

 

[Pete_uk]

It would be better than nothing

 

[170401]

The fife circle set could used .

What would you use on the Fife circle route to replace the Fife circle set if you pinched that for the E&G?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Many other units have curved windscreens? Apparently this issue even happened on the HSTs when the manufacturer was changed to a cheaper manufacturer. Wonder if that could be an issue?