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Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

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InOban

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The fact that no new units have come North for at least three weeks suggests that they are being held pending modification.

It is up to any MSP to ask Hamza whether Hitachi have decided upon the necessary redesign, and indicated a timescale. He is not responsible in any way for the problem, but as the ScoGov is the paymaster, Abellio and Hitachi must be keeping him in the loop.

BTW, I am definitely not a supporter of the SNP, let alone Hamza.
 
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Highland37

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Sorry my poor use of the quote feature may have confused my message. I am in full agreement with you. Some people seem to think that because they personally don't know of plans, means there are no plans. I don't know what they are beyond the next person but I am assuming Scotrail and TS are actively working on ways of filling the gaps.
 

47802

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There are contingency plan discussions going on behind the scenes. Whether the problem is a short term one, so grit teeth and bear it, or going to be months, December at the earliest was mentioned in this thread, then Hitachi will need to source a solution. Hitachi are train builders so Scotrail will give advice as to what is available. Whatever the solution Hitachi will need to take the hit, including any work needing done make stock fit for purpose. Route clearance work can be fast-tracked if necessary, Flying Scotsman last year comes to mind. Training drivers and dispatchers etc, all doable and costs all down to Hitachi. Because I'm sure those in high places, not just in Holyrood, will have reminded Hitachi that if they don't get the 385s problem fixed in a timely manner they can kiss goodbye to any thoughts of the HS2 rolling stock order- put a little bit more discretely than how I've worded it.

Why are all costs forced to be down to Hitachi, Hitachi may have to pay some costs for late delivery etc depending what is in their contract and rectification work, but I don't see they will necessarily have to directly pay for or source a solution unless that's in their contract, or that late delivery of trains to Scotrail will stop them winning the HS2 Contract.
 

Highland37

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Why would they not pay for a solution? The product is not fit for purpose and is dangerous according to drivers.
 

gingertom

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Why are all costs forced to be down to Hitachi, Hitachi may have to pay some costs for late delivery etc depending what is in their contract and rectification work, but I don't see they will necessarily have to directly pay for or source a solution unless that's in their contract, or that late delivery of trains to Scotrail will stop them winning the HS2 Contract.

I think we are now into consequential loss territory. Going down any legal route leaves a foul taste. Certainly when I was project managing contracts, if a contractor let me down, I was disinclined to use him again. It's in Hitachi's best interests to find a solution and a short term fix.
 

47802

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Why would they not pay for a solution? The product is not fit for purpose and is dangerous according to drivers.
Why would they? effectively the trains or not ready for service yet requiring rectification, so they will no doubt pay whatever penalty clauses are in their contract relevant to that, I don't see they necessarily have to do anything else although they might choose to do so, it could be argued that Abellio have not left themselves enough contingency in the event of problems, and that's not really Hitachi's problem
 

Highland37

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Because they won't get paid if they don't? They won't have been fully paid yet.

Just to be clear, you don't see a manufacturer delivering a train which drivers consider to be safe as a necessary?

It's not Abellio's fault this, it's Hitachi's. There is no evidence to suggest Abellio don't have a contingency plan or are amending that right now. Hitachi and Abellio have agreed a contract and the former has not adhered to the terms of the contract.
 

47802

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Because they won't get paid if they don't? They won't have been fully paid yet.

It's not Abellio's fault this, it's Hitachi's. There is no evidence to suggest Abellio don't have a contingency plan or are amending that right now. Hitachi and Abellio have agreed a contract and the former has not adhered to the terms of the contract.

It is if they haven't provided sufficient contingency, when I was involved in IT projects if I didn't have a suitable contingency plan in the event of the failure of a new system, then I would have been sacked.

Just to be clear, you don't see a manufacturer delivering a train which drivers consider to be safe as a necessary?.
Uncalled for comment frankly its a train fault which will need to be fixed, no different to any other fault such problems with train doors etc.
 

Highland37

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No offence intended. I am just astounded by your suggestion that the company with responsibility for the issue should not be held responsible for that. The HAVE to fix this or these trains are scrap value.

This is hundreds of millions of public money being spent on a public service which everyone agrees is a good thing (apart from a few weirdos). Thankfully Scotrail appeared to have stopped the introduction process until the issue can be fixed.
 

47802

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No offence intended. I am just astounded by your suggestion that the company with responsibility for the issue should not be held responsible for that. The HAVE to fix this or these trains are scrap value.

This is hundreds of millions of public money being spent on a public service which everyone agrees is a good thing (apart from a few weirdos). Thankfully Scotrail appeared to have stopped the introduction process until the issue can be fixed.

I'm not saying Hitachi have no responsibility they clearly have a responsibility to deliver a satisfactory train according to their contract, and failure to deliver will do doubt incur whatever penalty's are in their contract, but beyond that if that then leaves Abellio in a difficult position because they have relied too heavily on these trains being delivered on time, is that Hitachi's fault? I don't think it is, but of course you can then argue Abellio have some mitigation if the lease is up for trains they thought they would no longer need by now and the new leaser wants their trains on time. You could also argue that they are having a double whammy as the HST project also seems to be a bit behind schedule, but then history tends to show that both new trains and substancially re worked old trains are frequently late and you should plan accordingly.
 
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92002

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Why would they? effectively the trains or not ready for service yet requiring rectification, so they will no doubt pay whatever penalty clauses are in their contract relevant to that, I don't see they necessarily have to do anything else although they might choose to do so, it could be argued that Abellio have not left themselves enough contingency in the event of problems, and that's not really Hitachi's problem

The trains are already late in delivery. None have been accepted yet, only test running and mileage accumulation so far.

So Hitachi will not have been paid any cash for them yet. They do not conform to the order placed.

So it`s their responsibility to find a solution to the current problem and fast. The clock is ticking and the longer they don't have a solution the more it will cost them.
 

Highland37

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I'm not saying Hitachi have no responsibility they clearly have a responsibility to deliver a satisfactory train according to their contract, and failure to deliver will do doubt incur whatever penalty's are in their contract, but beyond that if that then leaves Abellio in a difficult position because they have relied too heavily on these trains being delivered on time, is that Hitachi's fault? I don't think it is, but of course you can then argue Abellio have some mitigation if the lease is up for trains they thought they would no longer need by now and the new leaser wants their trains on time. You could also argue that they are having a double whammy as the HST project also seems to be a bit behind schedule, but then history tends to show that both new trains and substancially re worked old trains are frequently late and you should plan accordingly.

And what if a manufacturer agrees to delivering a train at a certain time and delays that and then further delays it with no end in sight? How long should a contingency plan be drafted for and at what point does the contract have to be cancelled?

Fyra anyone?
 

47802

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And what if a manufacturer agrees to delivering a train at a certain time and delays that and then further delays it with no end in sight? How long should a contingency plan be drafted for and at what point does the contract have to be cancelled?

Fyra anyone?

Then it becomes a difficult problem but I doubt it will be that bad. It is unfortunate for Scotrail that they are not replacing life expired stock but stock that has been leased and required elsewhere, but at the end of the day I don't think you can pin all the blame on Hitachi for that situation.
 

Highland37

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They are replacing life expired stock. That's the whole point of the order. Why don't you think the issue (the windows) is not the fault of the company that manufactured them?
 

mcmad

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Its not life expired, its being replaced due to the electrification. if they were life expired, they would be off to Booths, not Nothern
 

47802

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They are replacing life expired stock. That's the whole point of the order. Why don't you think the issue (the windows) is not the fault of the company that manufactured them?

Are you on a different planet to me or what? I have stated that the problem with the train is Hitachi fault, part of the order effectively replaces 170's on the E&G which are not life expired, and the immediate problem that Scotrail have is that they are loosing trains to Northern (170's and 158's) which have been leased by them, I would argue that Hitachi is not directly responsible for that situation, what is difficult to understand about that?
 
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Failed Unit

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Are you on a different planet to me or what? I have stated that the problem with the train is Hitachi fault, however the immediate problem that Scotrail have is that they are loosing trains to Northern (170's and 158's) which have been leased by them, I would argue that Hitachi is not directly responsible for that situation, what is difficult to understand about that?

I can see your point. The gamble of taking an unproven design and being the first customer. I remember another TOC saying they will let others iron out the problems and place follow on orders. Look how long it has taken GTR to get the 700s in service. Although they didn’t have the pressure of someone else wanting the displaced EMUs yesterday.
 

47802

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I can see your point. The gamble of taking an unproven design and being the first customer. I remember another TOC saying they will let others iron out the problems and place follow on orders. Look how long it has taken GTR to get the 700s in service. Although they didn’t have the pressure of someone else wanting the displaced EMUs yesterday.

Indeed the 345's may not have a Window problem but their introduction doesn't seem to be going all that smoothly, but they are replacing old trains which aren't in a rush to go anywhere else except the scrap yard so its less of a problem.
 

InOban

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I believe that all new trains have to be approved by a group within ORR. It is quite clear that they will not get this. Unless someone has written a contract which does not require such approval, heaven help Abellio, then it is entirely the responsibility of Hitachi.
You will notice that no-one is blaming ASLEF, as the issue is now we'll accepted.

By now, Hitachi should have a solution, and a timescale. Otherwise they will never sell another train.
 

Highland37

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There have been delays more than once, to put it mildly, with the 385 so how is an operator meant to plan with two conflicting pieces of information (delayed delivery due to manufacturing then 2nd delay due to design fault)?

Moving on, what actually is the solution? Front end redesign or just some alterations to the windows themselves?
 

gingertom

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According to The Northern Echo the trains will enter service in the next 2 months. Apparently it has a ‘source’ at Hitachi:

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ne...itachi_Rail_Europe_on_track_for_new_landmark/

to say they will be going into service on the Stirling Dunblane and Alloa lines "in a couple of months" is disingenuous. The wires are not nearly ready. In particular, the old Kerse Road bridge is still intact waiting utility diversions to be completed before demolition (Easter?) then the new build and divert utilites back. If this goes to schedule it won't be ready until September at the earliest, so after testing in service is more likely to be the December timetable change.
 

clc

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to say they will be going into service on the Stirling Dunblane and Alloa lines "in a couple of months" is disingenuous. The wires are not nearly ready. In particular, the old Kerse Road bridge is still intact waiting utility diversions to be completed before demolition (Easter?) then the new build and divert utilites back. If this goes to schedule it won't be ready until September at the earliest, so after testing in service is more likely to be the December timetable change.

I suspect it’s more likely to be a poor grasp of the detail on the journalist’s part rather than being disingenuous. However the fact that someone at Hitachi is briefing the local paper that the trains will enter service in 2 months is certainly interesting.
 

gingertom

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I suspect it’s more likely to be a poor grasp of the detail on the journalist’s part rather than being disingenuous. However the fact that someone at Hitachi is briefing the local paper that the trains will enter service in 2 months is certainly interesting.

unless s/he knows something we don't.
 

Mingulay

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The need to blame the SNP is like a religious belief. Just to be clear, this is not the fault of any politician despite what anyone says. Or would Ruth sort it out... Ha ha.

First question. The trains have been on test for months. Why did it take so long to discover this. Ask Hitachi who have responsibility for this. The testing process used by Scotrail has worked well as it has identified faults which were not identified by Hitachi. As you will not above, the earliest Scotrail knew about this was 10 weeks ago.

Second question. Assuming first indication of the issue was December we are now talking 12 weeks ago. Why is no solution in place after 12 weeks? A company the size of Hitachi cannot do better than that? Abiello cannot do better than that? When are we going to have a plan in place? Without this indication of timescale how can effective contingency plans be drawn up?

Ask Hitachi again as it is 100% their responsibility. It takes time to sort these issues out and 12 weeks seems reasonable to me. It may be that Hitachi have done such a poor job that it takes much longer. We don't know and you and I have no need or right to a running commentary. Just because you personally don't know of a contingency plan, doesn't mean there isn't one. I don't think Scotrail are putting a personal briefing too high on their list of priorities.

Third question. What has been done to alleviate the issue? This is affecting many people’s ability to get to work. The elected person looking after these people’s interest is Humza. What has he done to ensure the best solutions are being worked on in terms of contingency plans?

As others have noted above, driver training has been suspended pending a solution to the issue and Hitachi are under a lot of pressure to remedy the problem.

It is perfectly reasonable to expect the government to get a grip of the situation and aplly pressure to Hitachi. Perfectly reasonable to expect a contingency plan to have been in place. This is a foreseeable risk that some delay might have happened. They are already late with the electrification works. Far too easy to absolve the government. This has implications for everyday life and it is reasonable to ask those who planned it why it is so badly off programme.

Yes and that is what is being done. Again, you are assuming your own lack of knowledge on a contingency plan is indicative of its absence. Why do you need to know the exact details of plans from organisations which you have no connection with? What do you suggest Humza does? Do you think Hitachi are sitting on their hands as Humza isn't applying pressure?

It's more like it's far to easy to any issue to forward your own political agenda which is exactly what the Tories will do as they have nothing else to offer other than slagging off their enemies.


I do feel your perspective on this is distorted by seeing any criticism of the Scottish Government as an attack on the SNP, compounded by your interest and apparent detailed knowledge of the rail industry . You seem to see blaming the Scottish Govt as a "Tory" ambush . That's nonsense with respect . Your too partisan and clearly have no perspective on the fact the SNP have done nothing but blame Westminster , or as you say "slagging off their enemies" for years. So lets park the politics and deal with facts .
Transport is delegated to Scotland , has been for years . Holyrood wants the decision making . It has it . As a member of the travelling public suffering from this flagship project slipping into farce , it is to Transport Scotland and Abellio I look . I have no relationship with Hitachi . Lets not forget the poor service is not just down to these delayed trains . Its been poor for years on my service . I have correspondence with Transport Ministers and Transport Scotland going back 2 years and I can assure you they are all over this project, all over the terms of the franchise , clearly state they are involved in its terms , its operation, its monitoring . If they have not planned for , or anticipated this kind of circumstance then its them we rightly blame . Its up to them to tackle the manufacturer , not for us . One for corporate lawyers and if the contract to build is poorly drafted , does not to cover the costs of the impact , then the blame again falls on the Transport Secy,. I had a meeting in Scotrail offices ( as an ardent complainer) in 2016 and I pointed out the risks of this project being delayed on the tracks or train build. I was assured it was all signed sealed and buttoned down . Now if a "punter" like me can anticipate a rail project going awry , why couldn't Scotrail , and plan for delays, perhaps an option to extend current leases with penalties from train builder ? So we should all focus our dissatisfaction at our Scottish Government charged with the Transport of Scotland and the operator they selected . Proudly selected according to the letter I have from Keith Brown who I challenged why Abellio with a poor track record was deemed a good choice for Scotland. KB is keeping his head down, has done for years !! He may have to look out a tin hat tho, unless Humza has it !

So like it or not , the blame will and rightly go in the first instance to those in charge of Transport and Rail operation. I would say the same in the unlikely circumstance Ruth was First Minister !!

Anyway . They may well have it all under control and there will be no impact and all will be well . But for now I will continue to endure overcrowding , dirty and delayed/cancelled trains as I have for years under Transport Scotlands watch . So please don't see this stance as anti snp. In my view there is not a lot of intelligence or talent in Holyrood , yellow, red or blue ! But the yellows are currently in charge . Perils of power .Live with it!
 

Clansman

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The aim is to get them into service by the May timetable change from what I was told.

In terms of Politics in relation to Scottish Transport, I'm pretty sure a mod shifted these posts into its own dedicated thread a few months back.
 

47271

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Who signed the final paperwork before the Class 385s were built?

Was it Keith Brown, Humza Yousaf, or Alex Hynes? Was it Hitachi? The buck has to stop with whoever signed for the Class 385s to be built.
It certainly wasn't Alex Hynes, he was still at Northern at the time.

But what a brilliant idea, let's blame Phil Verster!
 
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