Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[swaldman]

lid


As I state I have no specialist knowledge other than 20 years of commuting by train. I pay my fares , I have a valid voice . Its extraordinary to suggest our politicians are blame less. The Transport Minister is front and centre in the media presenting himself as a man with power to intervene , order , instruct and take credit if any. Well that is a two edged sword. Scottish Government had a role in this project and Abellios selection . The under investment in rail network is the fault of decades worth of neglect , The Conservatives deserve more than a fair share of that guilt. But the reality is we have a Scottish Government devolved to deal with Transport . There can be no hiding from that . Scot Gov ministers have habitually played the blame game with Westminster on just about every subject. It no longer washes . With Governance comes responsibility and accountability. So no let up from me , the media and the public on a laser like beam of accountability on Scot Gov/Abellio. Cross hairs are aligned !

There are two different things here: One is who's to blame, and the other is who needs to be involved to find a solution.

From the info that we have, Hitachi are to blame. This does not appear to be the fault of Abellio, and definitely not of the Scottish Government.

However, while Hitachi must provide the eventual solution and pick up the tab (subject to whatever legal wrangling), they probably cannot solve the immediate problem of "an already badly overcrowded service is about to loose a significant proportion of its stock". That is something that Abellio must deal with and, since most of the solutions in this thread require borrowing stock from other TOCs, if such a solution does turn out to be viable I would expect the Scottish Government and the DfT to get involved to facilitate it.

 

[170401]

The sheer amount of traincrew that would require familiarisation for 321s and to be done in such a short time frame would make this totally unviable. - there are a lot of train crews that work E and Gs from Glasgow Queen Street, Stirling, Perth, Dundee, Edinburgh, Tweedbank and Haymarket Drivers, Driver Instructors, Driver Team Managers, Conductors, Fitters, Depot Staff and Shunters and there are a lot of them to train up in a really short period of time- these things take several months.

They would be starting from scratch on fresh traction as there will be no shorter "conversion course" like a 314 to 318/320 that exists as a 321 is unlike anything these crews work. And that's before the timetable being ripped to shreds as a 321 wont be able to keep to 380/385 timings.

This is a ridiculous argument given that almost all of the above (Perth and Dundee lose the E&G, if not already) still need to be trained on 385s! Are they just going to run short of 16 trains (not to mention 158s that are also due to leave) for the rest of the year?

If a solution can be found utilising off lease fleets then I can assure you it will be implemented irrespective of additional training requirements.

 

[Chrism20]

Thanks. So for all those saying SG and Humza Yousaf should have intervened (how?), given that the experts, the drivers, and the ROC itself did not flag the issues until roughly 8-10 weeks ago, I think the criticism of them is not justified.

It's entirely Hitachi's responsibility and fault.

I couldn’t agree more and I’m far from a fan of Humza or his politics.

This is a contractual issue between Abellio and Hitachi. It’s Abellio’s responsibility to say to Hitachi “These goods aren’t fit for purchase, we can’t accept them in this state, you need to fix them and make them safe”. Abellio not Humza Yousaf.

I’d also be astonished if Abellio haven’t been in continual communication with TS and Humza about it as all three parties will be fully aware that a crisis is on the horizon but until the time comes when the next lot of 170s are due to go and amendments need to be made there is probably very little to say. I don’t know about anyone else but I don’t particularly think Alex Hynes, Humza Yousaf or anyone else involved in the situation coming out and publicly saying “Its going to get much worse as there’s more trains to go in July but don’t worry we’ll tell you more about nearer the time” is going to be productive in anyway whatsoever.

Something needs to be done and fast and as others have said bringing in a new lot of traction isn’t going to be able to be done in time. Taking the 380s from Inverclyde is more than likely a definite.

How far away are any of the HSTs from being able to run in service?
Would running the Fife LHCS all day be an option? It’s probably only two units but if it could be done.

 

[Highland37]

lid


As I state I have no specialist knowledge other than 20 years of commuting by train. I pay my fares , I have a valid voice . Its extraordinary to suggest our politicians are blame less. The Transport Minister is front and centre in the media presenting himself as a man with power to intervene , order , instruct and take credit if any. Well that is a two edged sword. Scottish Government had a role in this project and Abellios selection . The under investment in rail network is the fault of decades worth of neglect , The Conservatives deserve more than a fair share of that guilt. But the reality is we have a Scottish Government devolved to deal with Transport . There can be no hiding from that . Scot Gov ministers have habitually played the blame game with Westminster on just about every subject. It no longer washes . With Governance comes responsibility and accountability. So no let up from me , the media and the public on a laser like beam of accountability on Scot Gov/Abellio. Cross hairs are aligned !

I am not suggesting you don't have a valid voice. I am just saying that politicians, SNP or anyone else, are not to blame on this matter.

Yes, the Scottish Government did have a role, the main role through their agency (TS) of awarding the franchise to Abellio.

They did not have any role in the shape of a window design though. None. This is not an under investment issue but I fully agree, there has been decades of under investment and the constitutional set up is in no small part to blame for that (Let's park that please). That is a separate issue though.

These trains are being held up by an apparent design fault which only became apparent to the customer 8-10 weeks ago. It's Hitachi's fault.

 

[td97]

It would appear from the Northern rolling stock changes forum that 2x 3-car 170's headed to Neville Hill (Northern) earlier, from Scotrail.

 

[ScottDarg]

It would appear from the Northern rolling stock changes forum that 2x 3-car 170's headed to Neville Hill (Northern) earlier, from Scotrail.

170475 and 478

 

[SC318250]

476/477 to follow later in week

 

[NotATrainspott]

They were doing them in just over 4 months, so the 1st of the 5 new 320/4 units shouldnt be too far away from being hauled back to Shields from Kilmarnock

That's the time for a full conversion and refurbishment into ScotRail livery. What I mean is the roughest and readiest conversion that can pass the necessary safety requirements. It might even extend as far as not bothering with any accessibility requirements. These sets could then allow a minor internal cascade to get 380s freed up for E&G runs. As far as I'm aware, any route a 314 can run on won't have any special DOO requirements like platform mirrors.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

The original 320/4s that came from London Midland went out almost immediately IIRC. They were still in the London Midland livery and interior complete with the 1st class seats. So I don't imagine it would take that long to get them on the rails.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Agreed. No one is suggesting this would be anything but a stopgap. So grab as many 321s as can be found and either run as they are or the minimum necessary to take out the intermediate trailer to make a temporary 320.

If the 385 problem turns out to be long term then that’s a whole new ball game, and ScR could start refurbishments.

Think the problem is that even with the 5 320s currently being refurbished plus the 3 321s mentioned previously as being in store, that’s still not enough to release sufficient 380s.

I can’t see how any more 321s can be freed up from their existing TOCs (Northern and Greater Anglia)?

 

[CJSwan]

Depending on how the electrification of the Gospel Oak to Barking line and introduction of 710s(?) go, once the 172s go to West Midlands, would it be possible for ScotRail to borrow a couple of their 170s?

I know it's a long shot, but might help out a wee bit. Unless West Midlands are equally struggling for DMUs.

 

[380101]

Depending on how the electrification of the Gospel Oak to Barking line and introduction of 710s(?) go, once the 172s go to West Midlands, would it be possible for ScotRail to borrow a couple of their 170s?

I know it's a long shot, but might help out a wee bit. Unless West Midlands are equally struggling for DMUs.

ScotRail were offered the 172s for 2018 by the leasing company 2 years ago and turned them down due to them not having gangways - Would have been ideal for strengthing E-G 170s or freeing up 158s for other routes. I'm sure fleet management are regretting it now.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the West Midlands (former London Midland) Class 170s, I am aware that their home depot is Tyseley. This I believe is also the home of the Crosscountry Class 170s as well.

I am unsure if Crosscountry are eyeing up some of the LM 170s. If they are, it would be a simple vinyl wrap that could be applied and maybe an internal spruce up. There would be no need to train up the depot staff as the 170s would still be based at the exact same depot.

Regarding the suggestions of grabbing Class 321s and using them in their original formation as built, they could be used on the Dumbarton Central - What's it called? Cumbernauld via Yoker and Bellgrove services. This is a straightforward route that does not interwork with anything else during most of the day. If I have done the maths right, I believe it is 6 diagrams which all run as single 3 car sets of either Class 318, 320, or 334. 6 Class 318s or 320s (or a mix of both) could be used on the Inverclyde route or the Glasgow Central - Lanark (there are some 380s that run on this route). This would enable 6 Class 380s to be used for the Edinburgh and Glasgow via Falkirk High route.

 

[CJSwan]

ScotRail were offered the 172s for 2018 by the leasing company 2 years ago and turned them down due to them not having gangways - Would have been ideal for strengthing E-G 170s or freeing up 158s for other routes. I'm sure fleet management are regretting it now.

Ooops! I also remember a rumour that there was a possibility of 5 trains to be borrowed from GWR, but I guess that too never came to anything?

 

[gingertom]

ScotRail were offered the 172s for 2018 by the leasing company 2 years ago and turned them down due to them not having gangways - Would have been ideal for strengthing E-G 170s or freeing up 158s for other routes. I'm sure fleet management are regretting it now.

but back then the level of delays to the 385 project could not have been predicted so I have some sympathy for that decision.

 

[gingertom]

Depending on how the electrification of the Gospel Oak to Barking line and introduction of 710s(?) go, once the 172s go to West Midlands, would it be possible for ScotRail to borrow a couple of their 170s?

I know it's a long shot, but might help out a wee bit. Unless West Midlands are equally struggling for DMUs.

Every operator is struggling for DMUs!

 

[td97]

Apparently TFL Rail are releasing some of their class 315's. Are these anything like class 314's, apart from being 1 carriage longer?

 

[gingertom]

This may be left field but 67s or 68s with Mk 3 coaches to fill in some areas?

its been said here these could be used on the Fife circle to release 170s to strengthen E&G diagrams. Any reason why MK3 LHCS couldn't be used on the E&G? Reminiscent of the 80s and the 47/7s. Or why not class 90s? The wires give us that option.

 

[CJSwan]

Every operator is struggling for DMUs!

This is very true; I've a list of places I would like to go during the summer and catch some of the loco hauled services that are dotted about.

 

[507 001]

Apparently TFL Rail are releasing some of their class 315's. Are these anything like class 314's, apart from being 1 carriage longer?

More or less identical. 315s are thyristor controlled but I can’t remember if 314s are Cam-Shaft controlled or Thyristor.

It should in theory be possible to shorten a 315. The DC version of a 315 (508) was built as 4 car but shortened to 3 when transferred to Merseyside. I don’t believe there is anything located in/under the TSO car that’s particularly important.

 

[mervyn72]

Just out of curiosity, how long does it take to train a driver/guard on new stock? Could a pool of drivers be prioritised to then concentrate on that stock. The off lease class 365's would be quite capable of running the service...

 

[Failed Unit]

Just out of curiosity, how long does it take to train a driver/guard on new stock? Could a pool of drivers be prioritised to then concentrate on that stock. The off lease class 365's would be quite capable of running the service...

It isn’t just driver / gaurd training (although not sure how DOO 365s would operate) clearance would need to be done as well as testing signal interface.

I am guess 3-4 months work.

Which is where the problem is. How long before the 385s can be used? If they knew it would be 1 year I am sure Scotrail would be looking at the 365s. If it is say 3 months they will spend a lot of time and money clearing a unit that may not generate them any money.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

More or less identical. 315s are thyristor controlled but I can’t remember if 314s are Cam-Shaft controlled or Thyristor.

It should in theory be possible to shorten a 315. The DC version of a 315 (508) was built as 4 car but shortened to 3 when transferred to Merseyside. I don’t believe there is anything located in/under the TSO car that’s particularly important.

There’s even an existing 314 DMSO which used to be part of a Class 508 ( part of 314203 from memory).

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

It isn’t just driver / gaurd training (although not sure how DOO 365s would operate) clearance would need to be done as well as testing signal interface.

I am guess 3-4 months work.

Which is where the problem is. How long before the 385s can be used? If they knew it would be 1 year I am sure Scotrail would be looking at the 365s. If it is say 3 months they will spend a lot of time and money clearing a unit that may not generate them any money.

I don’t really see the 365s coming to ScotRail. Their only possible role would be to free up something elsewhere which is compatible with the existing ScotRail fleet. But I can’t see how that works either, because GN don’t have any 321s to send north. Even if the TOCs and ROSCOs could cooperate to make something like that happen.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don’t really see the 365s coming to ScotRail. Their only possible role would be to free up something elsewhere which is compatible with the existing ScotRail fleet. But I can’t see how that works either, because GN don’t have any 321s to send north. Even if the TOCs and ROSCOs could cooperate to make something like that happen.

I don’t either unless the 385 issues take a seriously long time to resolve. I think the only reason they were mentioned was because they are off lease EMUs. As you say 321 / 317 (close build to 318s) would be better but no aware of any off-lease.

 

[507 001]

There’s even an existing 314 DMSO which used to be part of a Class 508 ( part of 314203 from memory).

That’s a 507 DMSO, but same difference so to speak.

Doing a little more research I would suggest 315s are an ideal solution to the problems, depending on how many are off lease?
They should be able to multi-work with 314s
They are compatible with existing DOO equipment.
The drivers will only need a minor conversion (the doors have been converted to electric operation from pneumatic)
They use mostly the same spare parts and maintenance procedures as 314s.

 

[Northhighland]

Surely just use HST sets for Inverness and Aberdeen shich would free up 170’s. Crews are already being trained?

 

[Northhighland]

Thanks. So for all those saying SG and Humza Yousaf should have intervened (how?), given that the experts, the drivers, and the ROC itself did not flag the issues until roughly 8-10 weeks ago, I think the criticism of them is not justified.

It's entirely Hitachi's responsibility and fault.

Is that you Humza? Hitachi make the trains totally agree. They are responsible for the design and manufacture of a fit for purpose product. That is not debatable. However the customer acceptance and testing is down to Abiello, the overall management of Scotland’s Railway is down to Transport Scotland controlled directly by Humza himself.

First question. The trains have been on test for months. Why did it take so long to discover this.

Second question. Assuming first indication of the issue was December we are now talking 12 weeks ago. Why is no solution in place after 12 weeks? A company the size of Hitachi cannot do better than that? Abiello cannot do better than that? When are we going to have a plan in place? Without this indication of timescale how can effective contingency plans be drawn up?

Third question. What has been done to alleviate the issue? This is affecting many people’s ability to get to work. The elected person looking after these people’s interest is Humza. What has he done to ensure the best solutions are being worked on in terms of contingency plans?

It is perfectly reasonable to expect the government to get a grip of the situation and aplly pressure to Hitachi. Perfectly reasonable to expect a contingency plan to have been in place. This is a foreseeable risk that some delay might have happened. They are already late with the electrification works. Far too easy to absolve the government. This has implications for everyday life and it is reasonable to ask those who planned it why it is so badly off programme.

 

[Highland37]

The need to blame the SNP is like a religious belief. Just to be clear, this is not the fault of any politician despite what anyone says. Or would Ruth sort it out... Ha ha.

First question. The trains have been on test for months. Why did it take so long to discover this. Ask Hitachi who have responsibility for this. The testing process used by Scotrail has worked well as it has identified faults which were not identified by Hitachi. As you will not above, the earliest Scotrail knew about this was 10 weeks ago.

Second question. Assuming first indication of the issue was December we are now talking 12 weeks ago. Why is no solution in place after 12 weeks? A company the size of Hitachi cannot do better than that? Abiello cannot do better than that? When are we going to have a plan in place? Without this indication of timescale how can effective contingency plans be drawn up?

Ask Hitachi again as it is 100% their responsibility. It takes time to sort these issues out and 12 weeks seems reasonable to me. It may be that Hitachi have done such a poor job that it takes much longer. We don't know and you and I have no need or right to a running commentary. Just because you personally don't know of a contingency plan, doesn't mean there isn't one. I don't think Scotrail are putting a personal briefing too high on their list of priorities.

Third question. What has been done to alleviate the issue? This is affecting many people’s ability to get to work. The elected person looking after these people’s interest is Humza. What has he done to ensure the best solutions are being worked on in terms of contingency plans?

As others have noted above, driver training has been suspended pending a solution to the issue and Hitachi are under a lot of pressure to remedy the problem.

It is perfectly reasonable to expect the government to get a grip of the situation and aplly pressure to Hitachi. Perfectly reasonable to expect a contingency plan to have been in place. This is a foreseeable risk that some delay might have happened. They are already late with the electrification works. Far too easy to absolve the government. This has implications for everyday life and it is reasonable to ask those who planned it why it is so badly off programme.

Yes and that is what is being done. Again, you are assuming your own lack of knowledge on a contingency plan is indicative of its absence. Why do you need to know the exact details of plans from organisations which you have no connection with? What do you suggest Humza does? Do you think Hitachi are sitting on their hands as Humza isn't applying pressure?

It's more like it's far to easy to any issue to forward your own political agenda which is exactly what the Tories will do as they have nothing else to offer other than slagging off their enemies.

 

[gingertom]

The need to blame the SNP is like a religious belief. Just to be clear, this is not the fault of any politician despite what anyone says. Or would Ruth sort it out... Ha ha.

First question. The trains have been on test for months. Why did it take so long to discover this. Ask Hitachi who have responsibility for this. The testing process used by Scotrail has worked well as it has identified faults which were not identified by Hitachi. As you will not above, the earliest Scotrail knew about this was 10 weeks ago.

Second question. Assuming first indication of the issue was December we are now talking 12 weeks ago. Why is no solution in place after 12 weeks? A company the size of Hitachi cannot do better than that? Abiello cannot do better than that? When are we going to have a plan in place? Without this indication of timescale how can effective contingency plans be drawn up?

Ask Hitachi again as it is 100% their responsibility. It takes time to sort these issues out and 12 weeks seems reasonable to me. It may be that Hitachi have done such a poor job that it takes much longer. We don't know and you and I have no need or right to a running commentary. Just because you personally don't know of a contingency plan, doesn't mean there isn't one. I don't think Scotrail are putting a personal briefing too high on their list of priorities.

Third question. What has been done to alleviate the issue? This is affecting many people’s ability to get to work. The elected person looking after these people’s interest is Humza. What has he done to ensure the best solutions are being worked on in terms of contingency plans?

As others have noted above, driver training has been suspended pending a solution to the issue and Hitachi are under a lot of pressure to remedy the problem.

It is perfectly reasonable to expect the government to get a grip of the situation and aplly pressure to Hitachi. Perfectly reasonable to expect a contingency plan to have been in place. This is a foreseeable risk that some delay might have happened. They are already late with the electrification works. Far too easy to absolve the government. This has implications for everyday life and it is reasonable to ask those who planned it why it is so badly off programme.

Yes and that is what is being done. Again, you are assuming your own lack of knowledge on a contingency plan is indicative of its absence. Why do you need to know the exact details of plans from organisations which you have no connection with? What do you suggest Humza does? Do you think Hitachi are sitting on their hands as Humza isn't applying pressure?

It's more like it's far to easy to any issue to forward your own political agenda which is exactly what the Tories will do as they have nothing else to offer other than slagging off their enemies.

There are contingency plan discussions going on behind the scenes. Whether the problem is a short term one, so grit teeth and bear it, or going to be months, December at the earliest was mentioned in this thread, then Hitachi will need to source a solution. Hitachi are train builders so Scotrail will give advice as to what is available. Whatever the solution Hitachi will need to take the hit, including any work needing done make stock fit for purpose. Route clearance work can be fast-tracked if necessary, Flying Scotsman last year comes to mind. Training drivers and dispatchers etc, all doable and costs all down to Hitachi. Because I'm sure those in high places, not just in Holyrood, will have reminded Hitachi that if they don't get the 385s problem fixed in a timely manner they can kiss goodbye to any thoughts of the HS2 rolling stock order- put a little bit more discretely than how I've worded it.