Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[Macwomble]

But one assume the design specs and plans could have been bought and restart production under licence. .?

Where?

Most train manufactuing/assembly facilities are working full pelt at the moment.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

It has to be said though, this whole project has been an absolute shambles. If ASLEF were that bothered about the windscreens, then why didn't they pipe up when at the start when they 385s went they first went out on test? Was there this much chaos when the 380s were introduced?

I can see the public getting fed up, if they aren't already of the excuses coming out TS, Scottish Government (Humza Yousaf in particular) and Abellio.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Thank you. A straight forward answer. But one assume the design specs and plans could have been bought and restart production under licence. .?

By who?

Going for the 'tried and tested' model means you can't have progress. See, a big reason why Hitachi were so confident with the ScotRail trains is that they're actually technically very similar to the trains they're building for various long-distance routes across GB. While they might be a little slower, the hard technical bits are fairly similar. The bit which seems to have brought them down is one of the few parts they can't share with the other trains, because ScotRail needed a very different cab design.

It's hard to produce modern trains 'under licence' because they're made up of so many different parts coming from different sub-contractors. 50 years ago train factories pretty much put steel in one end and trains came out the other. Modern factories source components from all over. A design can only be produced if you can source all of the parts it needs. Even if Siemens were happy to hand over the designs for the train as a whole, the component suppliers might not be interested or able to help. As soon as you start replacing parts with alternatives from other suppliers, you're starting to re-design the train, and make it less useful to go back to an old design in the first place.

 

[gsnedders]

It has to be said though, this whole project has been an absolute shambles. If ASLEF were that bothered about the windscreens, then why didn't they pipe up when at the start when they 385s went they first went out on test? Was there this much chaos when the 380s were introduced?

I can see the public getting fed up, if they aren't already of the excuses coming out TS, Scottish Government (Humza Yousaf in particular) and Abellio.

There were murmurings when they were first on test, it just hasn't become anywhere near so apparent till more recently. One assumes that the contractor convinced the customer that they would have no issue addressing the issue.

 

[Mingulay]

By who?

Going for the 'tried and tested' model means you can't have progress. See, a big reason why Hitachi were so confident with the ScotRail trains is that they're actually technically very similar to the trains they're building for various long-distance routes across GB. While they might be a little slower, the hard technical bits are fairly similar. The bit which seems to have brought them down is one of the few parts they can't share with the other trains, because ScotRail needed a very different cab design.

It's hard to produce modern trains 'under licence' because they're made up of so many different parts coming from different sub-contractors. 50 years ago train factories pretty much put steel in one end and trains came out the other. Modern factories source components from all over. A design can only be produced if you can source all of the parts it needs. Even if Siemens were happy to hand over the designs for the train as a whole, the component suppliers might not be interested or able to help. As soon as you start replacing parts with alternatives from other suppliers, you're starting to re-design the train, and make it less useful to go back to an old design in the first place.

Thank you. Informative. Answers my initial question. Still depressed at my commute which is not great going to get worse not better. I hope Scotrail or TS take down all the banners heralding the new trains arriving last year. An obvious advert for a project now firmly in the embarrassing crisis category

 

[156478]

Thank you. Informative. Answers my initial question. Still depressed at my commute which is not great going to get worse not better. I hope Scotrail or TS take down all the banners heralding the new trains arriving last year. An obvious advert for a project now firmly in the embarrassing crisis category

It has to be said though, this whole project has been an absolute shambles. If ASLEF were that bothered about the windscreens, then why didn't they pipe up when at the start when they 385s went they first went out on test? Was there this much chaos when the 380s were introduced?

I can see the public getting fed up, if they aren't already of the excuses coming out TS, Scottish Government (Humza Yousaf in particular) and Abellio.

Agreed with both of you- Nothing has went right and its been one crisis into another and there have not been any good news stories- just miserable own goals and very bad press from a rightly hostile media and justifiably upset customers. This rolling stock shortage is a ticking time bomb that is going to explode spectacularly.

 

[SC318250]

How quickly can more 320/4 conversions be done?

They were doing them in just over 4 months, so the 1st of the 5 new 320/4 units shouldnt be too far away from being hauled back to Shields from Kilmarnock

 

[380101]

It has to be said though, this whole project has been an absolute shambles. If ASLEF were that bothered about the windscreens, then why didn't they pipe up when at the start when they 385s went they first went out on test? Was there this much chaos when the 380s were introduced?

I can see the public getting fed up, if they aren't already of the excuses coming out TS, Scottish Government (Humza Yousaf in particular) and Abellio.

ASLEF never made an issue of it to begin with as the DB CargoUK drivers contracted to do the initial testing did not formally raise the issues - sore heads, eyes and feeling sick. Once ScotRail drivers started being trained the company were made aware of the issues. ASLEF, despite what tge mainstream media would have you believe, dont go looking for reasons to mess things up. Drivers as much as passengers want nice new trains to drive. But, if there is issues regarding the safety of these new trains then ASLEF quite rightly raise the issue. Afterall, if an incident occurs its the driver who is potentially in the dock over it - not the company or Hitatchi.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

ASLEF never made an issue of it to begin with as the DB CargoUK drivers contracted to do the initial testing did not formally raise the issues - sore heads, eyes and feeling sick. Once ScotRail drivers started being trained the company were made aware of the issues. ASLEF, despite what tge mainstream media would have you believe, dont go looking for reasons to mess things up. Drivers as much as passengers want nice new trains to drive. But, if there is issues regarding the safety of these new trains then ASLEF quite rightly raise the issue. Afterall, if an incident occurs its the driver who is potentially in the dock over it - not the company or Hitatchi.

So does that imply then then the the DB drivers had no issues whatsoever and the Scorail drivers via ASLEF are looking to nitpick and causes issues where there really isn't any?

 

[AlexNL]

By who?

Going for the 'tried and tested' model means you can't have progress. See, a big reason why Hitachi were so confident with the ScotRail trains is that they're actually technically very similar to the trains they're building for various long-distance routes across GB. While they might be a little slower, the hard technical bits are fairly similar. The bit which seems to have brought them down is one of the few parts they can't share with the other trains, because ScotRail needed a very different cab design.

There is also the matter of regulations.

The Class 380 was built from 2009 to 2011, since then new regulations have come into force which might mean that the design no longer meets standards for crashworthiness, people with reduced mobility, or energy use. These regulations come from the European Union (TSI Loc & Pas) and can be augmented by the member states, such as through the RSSB's Railway Group Standards.

While that doesn't mean that the 380 is an unsafe train, it does mean that the type probably no longer meets the latest standards and new builds aren't allowed. So even if you'd want to get a batch of new 380s, it's probably not possible.

 

[380101]

So does that imply then then the the DB drivers had no issues whatsoever and the Scorail drivers via ASLEF are looking to nitpick and causes issues where there really isn't any?

They had issues, hence why we all knew about the double signal issues several months ago. ScotRail only very recently invited ASLEF officials (all ScotRail drivers) to drive the 385 on a test run and all of them, along with the ScotRail Op safety guy and ScotRail Operations director saw the issue for themselves. Viewing 3 junction indicators (feathers) with 3 green signals coming out of a goods loop isnt exactly ideal when all you should see is 1 feather and 1 green!

As I said in the post you quoted, we all want to be driving nice new trains, but not ones that put ourselves and passenger safety at risk. ASLEF certainly dont want to cause issues just for the sake of doing so regardless of what the right wing press and Tory party think of unions, especially ASLEF.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I would not call Tory party far right I don't support them either. But as the client and Keith Brown appointed Abellio which I think was a poor choice , they must take the flak. You can bet your bottom dollar the transport secretary would be grandstanding if this project had been on time and deemed a success. I'm just a passenger who pays a lot of money for a second rate service and I can rightly hold the train operator and transport scotlands feet to the fire . I have no relationship with Hitachi. That's for Scotrail to deal with. My question is. Why design a completely new train when existing news class of electrics seem very capable ?

I disagree about politicians taking the flak. This contract has been drawn up between a railway operator and a competent train manufacturer. Unless you want the government to start having technical expertise in train design, this is not their fault. The contract is not wrong, just the design.

 

[Highland37]

380101, when did the Scotrail drivers start flagging the issue?

 

[47271]

I disagree about politicians taking the flak. This contract has been drawn up between a railway operator and a competent train manufacturer. Unless you want the government to start having technical expertise in train design, this is not their fault. The contract is not wrong, just the design.

You're absolutely right, but to be fair to Mingulay, who claims no specialist knowledge, they're expressing exactly the same frustrations as nearly all passengers who struggle to differentiate between the various players in Scotrail's woes. Most will realise that politicians are involved, but few will care how.

Personally I think Abellio will cop it for this it in the court of public opinion unless they come up with a proper solution to the capacity crisis. Hitachi is a faraway idea to most people and TS and the Scottish Government are two steps removed. The media, unions and Labour have been circling them for a couple of years now and fallout from the 385s is a heaven sent opportunity. Standby.

 

[InOban]

It's a right mess, and I agree that the ScoGov is not responsible. However they are entitled to demand from Abellio that they demand from Hitachi, and publish a timescale for, a solution to the problem.

 

[380101]

380101, when did the Scotrail drivers start flagging the issue?

End of December/beginning of January I believe once they started doing a few test runs out of Glasgow Central.

 

[Highland37]

End of December/beginning of January I believe once they started doing a few test runs out of Glasgow Central.

Thanks. So for all those saying SG and Humza Yousaf should have intervened (how?), given that the experts, the drivers, and the ROC itself did not flag the issues until roughly 8-10 weeks ago, I think the criticism of them is not justified.

It's entirely Hitachi's responsibility and fault.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks. So for all those saying SG and Humza Yousaf should have intervened (how?), given that the experts, the drivers, and the ROC itself did not flag the issues until roughly 8-10 weeks ago, I think the criticism of them is not justified.

It's entirely Hitachi's responsibility and fault.

Agreed. It is a simple case of a product being unfit for the purpose for which it is sold. If it was a telly from Curry's you'd take it back, obviously not quite so simple with trains.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

They were doing them in just over 4 months, so the 1st of the 5 new 320/4 units shouldnt be too far away from being hauled back to Shields from Kilmarnock

So there could be the potential for 4 diagrams (on Inverclyde) being converted to 320 releasing 4 380s for E&G?

There was mention up thread of three 321s currently in store. Could they be used "as is" to release 2 or 3 more diagrams of 380s without needing conversion to 320/4 spec? Four cars shouldn't be a problem anywhere? Not ideal, but better than nothing.

That would probably be enough to convert all remaining 380 diagrams on Inverclyde to 314/320/321 operation, but still not enough to provide for 2 sets of 380s on every E&G diagram. There may be some other 380 diagrams that could go over to 320/321 operations (North Berwick?), and possibly the option to temporarily short-form some 6 car departures on the Ayrshires with a 4 car 380?

You might get away with 4 car 380s on a couple of E&G diagrams (the xx45 departures in the afternoon peak?), but still would require circa 14 380 sets in service daily on E&G.

 

[gsnedders]

There was mention up thread of three 321s currently in store. Could they be used "as is" to release 2 or 3 more diagrams of 380s without needing conversion to 320/4 spec? Four cars shouldn't be a problem anywhere? Not ideal, but better than nothing.

Depends where they're going. It would be complex to figure out diagramming of them (though the 320/4s are already in a separate pool to the other 320s) if they were used on the North Clyde Line given you couldn't just couple them to a three-car set at some point in the day.

 

[Southsider]

So there could be the potential for 4 diagrams (on Inverclyde) being converted to 320 releasing 4 380s for E&G?

There was mention up thread of three 321s currently in store. Could they be used "as is" to release 2 or 3 more diagrams of 380s without needing conversion to 320/4 spec? Four cars shouldn't be a problem anywhere? Not ideal, but better than nothing.

That would probably be enough to convert all remaining 380 diagrams on Inverclyde to 314/320/321 operation, but still not enough to provide for 2 sets of 380s on every E&G diagram. There may be some other 380 diagrams that could go over to 320/321 operations (North Berwick?), and possibly the option to temporarily short-form some 6 car departures on the Ayrshires with a 4 car 380?

You might get away with 4 car 380s on a couple of E&G diagrams (the xx45 departures in the afternoon peak?), but still would require circa 14 380 sets in service daily on E&G.

I made a similar suggestion up-thread and took it to the next stage of using the 321s as-are on the Edinburgh to Glasgow route to avoid upsetting other diagrams. It was pointed out quite correctly that they are not of the desired standard but, as time passes, anything is going to be better than nothing. They will also be in another TOC's livery but that was deemed acceptable when the first conversions were done and the units pressed into service; the need is probably more urgent now. I'm sure more informed minds than ours are being applied to the problem, let's hope they come up with something soon. In the political context there are points to be scored from a number of angles, I trust this opportunity is being set to the side in order to come up with a solution that helps passengers (how naive am I ??).

 

[gordonjahn]

The use of 365s again is a complete non-starter, they are not gauge cleared for anything in Scotland, train crew training and what would happen if one broke down- there's nothing else in the fleet compatible with them. And again the factor of the sheer amount of traction familiarisation required as mentioned above through the business makes this unviable.

See I'd ordinarily agree that something that's never seen use in Scotland is a complete non-starter for a quick turnaround, but doesn't the 365 share the same heritage as the 170 that's been running for years on the E&G? Are they so significantly different that gauge clearance would be a big issue? Surely it'd be easier to train drivers on AC versions from the same family than completely new trains too. (I was going to say "how different can the cabs be", then I Googled it...)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I made a similar suggestion up-thread and took it to the next stage of using the 321s as-are on the Edinburgh to Glasgow route to avoid upsetting other diagrams. It was pointed out quite correctly that they are not of the desired standard but, as time passes, anything is going to be better than nothing. They will also be in another TOC's livery but that was deemed acceptable when the first conversions were done and the units pressed into service; the need is probably more urgent now. I'm sure more informed minds than ours are being applied to the problem, let's hope they come up with something soon. In the political context there are points to be scored from a number of angles, I trust this opportunity is being set to the side in order to come up with a solution that helps passengers (how naive am I ??).

Like the old Northern issue...rather a seat on a 321 than standing (or unable to board) on a 158.

 

[156478]

I made a similar suggestion up-thread and took it to the next stage of using the 321s as-are on the Edinburgh to Glasgow route to avoid upsetting other diagrams. It was pointed out quite correctly that they are not of the desired standard but, as time passes, anything is going to be better than nothing. They will also be in another TOC's livery but that was deemed acceptable when the first conversions were done and the units pressed into service; the need is probably more urgent now. I'm sure more informed minds than ours are being applied to the problem, let's hope they come up with something soon. In the political context there are points to be scored from a number of angles, I trust this opportunity is being set to the side in order to come up with a solution that helps passengers (how naive am I ??).

The sheer amount of traincrew that would require familiarisation for 321s and to be done in such a short time frame would make this totally unviable. - there are a lot of train crews that work E and Gs from Glasgow Queen Street, Stirling, Perth, Dundee, Edinburgh, Tweedbank and Haymarket Drivers, Driver Instructors, Driver Team Managers, Conductors, Fitters, Depot Staff and Shunters and there are a lot of them to train up in a really short period of time- these things take several months.

They would be starting from scratch on fresh traction as there will be no shorter "conversion course" like a 314 to 318/320 that exists as a 321 is unlike anything these crews work. And that's before the timetable being ripped to shreds as a 321 wont be able to keep to 380/385 timings.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Depends where they're going. It would be complex to figure out diagramming of them (though the 320/4s are already in a separate pool to the other 320s) if they were used on the North Clyde Line given you couldn't just couple them to a three-car set at some point in the day.

If they simply temporarily substituted 321s onto 380 diagrams which are largely/exclusively Inverclyde then there would be no problem - don't think any of them ever couple up in the course of a normal working day.

 

[gsnedders]

If they simply temporarily substituted 321s onto 380 diagrams which are largely/exclusively Inverclyde then there would be no problem - don't think any of them ever couple up in the course of a normal working day.

How many Inverclyde drivers sign 320s, yet alone 321s, though? The advantage of the North Clyde Line (and Argyle Line, etc.) is that the drivers already sign the very similar 320s.

They would be starting from scratch on fresh traction as there will be no shorter "conversion course" like a 314 to 318/320 that exists as a 321 is unlike anything these crews work.

Is there that much different between the 320 and 321? I thought they were near identical to the 320s, just with four cars?

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

How many Inverclyde drivers sign 320s, yet alone 321s, though? The advantage of the North Clyde Line (and Argyle Line, etc.) is that the drivers already sign the very similar 320s.

I queried that earlier in the thread and was told that Gourock drivers now signed 318/320 - I was sceptical at the time, but I've certainly now travelled on a 320 on Inverclyde services, albeit I suspect it was a Shields Road driver rather than a Gourock-based one.

 

[gsnedders]

I queried that earlier in the thread and was told that Gourock drivers now signed 318/320 - I was sceptical at the time, but I've certainly now travelled on a 320 on Inverclyde services, albeit I suspect it was a Shields Road driver rather than a Gourock-based one.

Yes, there's definitely some that do; the question is how many!

 

[Mingulay]

lid

Thanks. So for all those saying SG and Humza Yousaf should have intervened (how?), given that the experts, the drivers, and the ROC itself did not flag the issues until roughly 8-10 weeks ago, I think the criticism of them is not justified.

It's entirely Hitachi's responsibility and fault.

As I state I have no specialist knowledge other than 20 years of commuting by train. I pay my fares , I have a valid voice . Its extraordinary to suggest our politicians are blame less. The Transport Minister is front and centre in the media presenting himself as a man with power to intervene , order , instruct and take credit if any. Well that is a two edged sword. Scottish Government had a role in this project and Abellios selection . The under investment in rail network is the fault of decades worth of neglect , The Conservatives deserve more than a fair share of that guilt. But the reality is we have a Scottish Government devolved to deal with Transport . There can be no hiding from that . Scot Gov ministers have habitually played the blame game with Westminster on just about every subject. It no longer washes . With Governance comes responsibility and accountability. So no let up from me , the media and the public on a laser like beam of accountability on Scot Gov/Abellio. Cross hairs are aligned !

 

[swaldman]

I made a similar suggestion up-thread and took it to the next stage of using the 321s as-are on the Edinburgh to Glasgow route to avoid upsetting other diagrams. It was pointed out quite correctly that they are not of the desired standard but, as time passes, anything is going to be better than nothing. They will also be in another TOC's livery but that was deemed acceptable when the first conversions were done and the units pressed into service; the need is probably more urgent now.

Wrong livery, or an obvious vinyl conversion, might be seen as an advantage: it's saying "We know this isn't the standard you're expecting, and this isn't the end product; this is a quick fix to keep the service running"