Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[gingertom]

Someone else mentioned class 319 and 365 earlier in the thread.
Out of curiosity have these fleets ever been worked with guards or were they always DOO units?

No point in messing about with the 3 car / 4 car mix of the 385s, once Glasgow Queen Street is extended to take 8 car sets the 3 car sets will be cascaded internally, to the Glasgow South Side suburban services and allow 6 car sets on the Dunblane/Alloa routes.

A pair of 365s will fit Queen Street's current platform configuration as these carriages are 20m without driving cab and 21m with, 82m per 4 car set. Lack of connecting gangway is an inconvenience, not a show stopper- the 170s don;t have and that's been ok up til now. Whether these come north to cover for the 385s depends on how long the windscreen fix will take, and there's not much evidence of that happening soon, and who pays for them.

 

[mde]

Heard yesterday (Sunday) that single 158s were running between Queen Street and Waverley... Apparently it wasn't pretty.

I can confirm that - I was on the 1R05 at 6pm yesterday - showing on RTT as a 385 so you'd normally expect a 380 to appear, or, a 6 car 170 at worst. Instead, it was a 2 car 158. There were still some seats through to Queen St, but, in the reverse it was clear that standing room only was going to be the case as the platform was packed when we arrived. Circa 4 BTP officers were also in attendance!

There had been no announcements about the number of carriages in advance that I know of, but, it was pretty unusual to say the least.

 

[gsnedders]

Is there enough HSTs yet ?

Are enough drivers trained on them for that to even be an option? And if they're being used unrefurbished, then we'll have all the extra time involved in slam door stock being an issue (though I suppose one could theoretically do something like run them non-stop, Queen Street to Edinburgh, 2TPH, and then use the DMU stock you've freed up for a 2TPH stopping service?).

No point in messing about with the 3 car / 4 car mix of the 385s, once Glasgow Queen Street is extended to take 8 car sets the 3 car sets will be cascaded internally, to the Glasgow South Side suburban services and allow 6 car sets on the Dunblane/Alloa routes.

A pair of 365s will fit Queen Street's current platform configuration as these carriages are 20m without driving cab and 21m with, 82m per 4 car set. Lack of connecting gangway is an inconvenience, not a show stopper- the 170s don;t have and that's been ok up til now. Whether these come north to cover for the 385s depends on how long the windscreen fix will take, and there's not much evidence of that happening soon, and who pays for them.

How long would it take to source both driver trainers and train the drivers to operate the 365s? (And pay for the time involved, etc.)

 

[Stopper]

No point in messing about with the 3 car / 4 car mix of the 385s, once Glasgow Queen Street is extended to take 8 car sets the 3 car sets will be cascaded internally, to the Glasgow South Side suburban services and allow 6 car sets on the Dunblane/Alloa routes.

A pair of 365s will fit Queen Street's current platform configuration as these carriages are 20m without driving cab and 21m with, 82m per 4 car set. Lack of connecting gangway is an inconvenience, not a show stopper- the 170s don;t have and that's been ok up til now. Whether these come north to cover for the 385s depends on how long the windscreen fix will take, and there's not much evidence of that happening soon, and who pays for them.

Would it not make more sense to give the Dunblane/Alloa/Cumbernauld services the 4-car units aswell to allow interworking? There are plenty spare 4-car units going by the amount ordered, even at the peaks when there are 8-car trains running. A 4-car would be more than sufficient to cover the Cumbernaulds and Dunblanes (especially after omitting 2 of the main stops on this line). I don’t think I’ve ever travelled on an Alloa service so I’m unaware of the demand for those.

I’d imagine the 3-car units would go to the Cathcart Circle, Shotts and Lanark lines. I’m not sure if the Carstairs/North Berwick services will get 4 or 3 cars.

 

[Highland37]

Just to be clear, no I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is they set up the contract and appointed all the advisors, they ultimately manage the contract as they are paying. I would definitely not expect them to be involved in the actual solution, but I would expect them to be managing the timescales around the rectification and ensuring appropriate pressure is applied to the contractor to get this fixed. Ultimately they run the rail network, they are first there when the photo opportunity arises, are quick to take credit for anything that goes right so they should be accountable when it goes wrong.

My point is this has been known about for months, yet units that were not built when the problem was first recognised are still being completed with this defect. We are now a year late in getting delivery and it seems a solution is still not sorted, let alone implemented. Not good enough form all parties involved.

Correct. The Scottish Government is not involved in the design of a windscreen in any way. This is Hitachi's fault and their sub-contractors. If anything it shows that their design and testing process is also poor if it takes the customer to point the issues. (That is presuming there is as much of an issue as is made out).

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Are enough drivers trained on them for that to even be an option? And if they're being used unrefurbished, then we'll have all the extra time involved in slam door stock being an issue (though I suppose one could theoretically do something like run them non-stop, Queen Street to Edinburgh, 2TPH, and then use the DMU stock you've freed up for a 2TPH stopping service?).



How long would it take to source both driver trainers and train the drivers to operate the 365s? (And pay for the time involved, etc.)

Unless the 385 are going to be really late I can’t see 365s coming north. Their most likely use would be if they could free up something in England which was already compatible with the ScR fleet.

But even then, that would only work if wherever the 365s were used was possible without driver training. Neat as using 365s as a solution might sound, I can’t see how it is possible without expensive training.

 

[td97]

Scotrail will be losing 16(?) 170's to Northern by July this year (starting from May, I believe). If the 385 issue is unlikely to be resolved in the next 2-3 months, then surely it would be worthwhile starting to obtain some 319's (45 off lease) or 321's (3 stored).
If having such a small fleet will be an issue for the short term, then get rid of the 314's early and use the 319's for the longer term, especially as they're at least 7 years newer.

 

[380101]

So come hell or high water the 385s must be got into service by then.

Not going to happen given the driver training programme has been suspended until further notice. Windscreens MUST be rectified before any training can re start.

Heard from an Edinburgh Waverly driver today and they said its going to be December 2018 at the earliest before they'll be driving the 385s in service. Not looking too good for Hitatchi.

 

[385001]

Heard from an Edinburgh Waverly driver today and they said its going to be December 2018 at the earliest before they'll be driving the 385s in service. Not looking too good for Hitatchi.

A monumental cockup by Hitachi which I hope the cost implications are borne by.

And any timescale seems moot just now as it all depends on fixing the showstopper defect. Which they’ve known about for weeks.

I take this means all the May timetable improvements such as Glasgow-Cumbernauld-Edinburgh are postponed? Without new stock ScotRail won’t be able to run the existing timetable never mind an improved one.

 

[156478]

Having read this threads last page with interest and the limitations of the ideas I can foresee as follows.

class 319s and 321s on the Edinburgh Glasgow is a non starter. no Glasgow Queen Street, Edinburgh, Stirling, Dundee, Edinburgh, Tweedbank or Perth Drivers or Conductors who would work. E and Gs would sign for them and for such a short period of time is not possible. You would need to train and convert hundreds of train crew for this to happen, and don't forget thetrain dispatchers, fitters, train depots and shunters and this takes many months. No gauge clearance for 319s despite being related to 318 and 320s either. You might have a few Edinburgh drivers who drove 322s to North Berwick who might only need a refresh but they will be few and far between.

You could get the 3 x 321s to become 320/4s and use them on the Inverclyde route to cascade 380s to E and Gs but the Inverclyde customers are already very cheesed off at losing 380s and it would be a drop in the ocean for what is needed and needed quickly.

The use of 365s again is a complete non-starter, they are not gauge cleared for anything in Scotland, train crew training and what would happen if one broke down- there's nothing else in the fleet compatible with them. And again the factor of the sheer amount of traction familiarisation required as mentioned above through the business makes this unviable.

 

[mcmad]

That may well be but TS/Scotrail need to come up with some form of plan as they can barely run a reliable service down 4 units, if they're going to loose another 16 then they'd be as well handing the keys back now

 

[170401]

Having read this threads last page with interest and the limitations of the ideas I can foresee as follows.

class 319s and 321s on the Edinburgh Glasgow is a non starter. no Glasgow Queen Street, Edinburgh, Stirling, Dundee, Edinburgh, Tweedbank or Perth Drivers or Conductors who would work. E and Gs would sign for them and for such a short period of time is not possible. You would need to train and convert hundreds of train crew for this to happen, and don't forget thetrain dispatchers, fitters, train depots and shunters and this takes many months. No gauge clearance for 319s despite being related to 318 and 320s either. You might have a few Edinburgh drivers who drove 322s to North Berwick who might only need a refresh but they will be few and far between.

You could get the 3 x 321s to become 320/4s and use them on the Inverclyde route to cascade 380s to E and Gs but the Inverclyde customers are already very cheesed off at losing 380s and it would be a drop in the ocean for what is needed and needed quickly.

The use of 365s again is a complete non-starter, they are not gauge cleared for anything in Scotland, train crew training and what would happen if one broke down- there's nothing else in the fleet compatible with them. And again the factor of the sheer amount of traction familiarisation required as mentioned above through the business makes this unviable.

The only realistic alternative then is to introduce an emergency timetable 16 units short. It could be done with a lot of pain but it will be just as drastic, if not more so, than introducing a temporary fleet.

 

[swaldman]

All I can think is that Citylink coaches must be rubbing their hands with glee! While space at the terminal bus stations might be an issue, I imagine they can scale up their service to cope with the droves abandoning the trains[1] a whole lot faster than Scotrail can sort out the extra stock that they need...

[1] I mean, assuming Scotrail don't find a way to keep their numbers up.

 

[PHILIPE]

Has anybody got any information regarding if, or any , progress has been made so far in dealing with the windscreen problem

 

[47271]

What's the relationship between the further reduction of dmus and the planned introduction of HSTs to service, is there a separate risk looming there?

 

[156478]

The only realistic alternative then is to introduce an emergency timetable 16 units short. It could be done with a lot of pain but it will be just as drastic, if not more so, than introducing a temporary fleet.

I agree with you. They will end up having to rob Peter to Pay Paul. Worst case To release 380s for E and Gs they could strip away multiple sets on Ayrshires to run as 3/4 cars only and make Inverclyde 314s only with the occasional luxury of class 318/320 of which train crews are passed on which will be a real lead balloon. Cut E and Gs to every 30 minutes and Glasgow/Edinburgh-Stirling/Alloa/Dunblane hourly and the last resort cut away the Dundee to Edinburgh shuttles to free up sets.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Could they take the 334s off the Bathgate line and reroute them via Falkirk High and put the 318/320s on the Bathgate line?

One way or the way other, someone is definitely going to come a dropper regarding it. Was there a get out clause in case of any circumstances that arise? I'm assuming if there is, it'll be far too late to invoke it given that most of them are built...

 

[Highland37]

This may be left field but 67s or 68s with Mk 3 coaches to fill in some areas?

 

[156478]

Could they take the 334s off the Bathgate line and reroute them via Falkirk High and put the 318/320s on the Bathgate line?

One way or the way other, someone is definitely going to come a dropper regarding it. Was there a get out clause in case of any circumstances that arise? I'm assuming if there is, it'll be far too late to invoke it given that most of them are built...

No as no train crew from any depot that work E and Gs have ever touched a Class 334 and the sheer amount of training would be impractical.

 

[SC318250]

Suppose emergency timetable you could return Ayrshire to old timetable of 4 trains per hr with couple of additional peaks. You would need 6 car trains on all tho. Inverclyde could also loose the additional Gourock temporary

Not sure of this would spare many units up tho

 

[Mingulay]

As a commuter and not a train expert. Can you explain why a completely new train needed to be built when the latest electric train currently on the Edinburgh Glasgow route seems a very acceptable train. Why reinvent the wheel?. A new class surely means more risk less interchangeability. If we have a train that works and has glitches ironed out. Roll more out. More driver flexibility all the benefits of tried and tested. What am I missing in all this. .? If the new trains are delayed till December. And they have lost extisting 170 and the life expired 158 , then 8/9 months of a reduced service on a flagship service. Abellio are toast. This was meant to be the big transport project for Scotland . It's already late and things will be getting worse now. It's Edinburgh trams 2. What's more the snp scot gov can't hide their fingerprints on this project unlike the trams that they opposed. Add to that a delayed Caledonian sleeper. Is all we have to show this year a few refurbished 40 year old 125s. Which could yet still be delayed given Abellios propensity to slip on every available banana skin. As politicians never take any blame then Abellios tenure surely is at an end!

 

[Highland37]

What have the SNP done to delay entry into service of these trains? Nothing as far as I can see. It's entirely Hitachi's fault and not Abellios or the Scottish Government's. Of course that is not how far right parties such as the Tory's will push it.

Back on topic, presumably the design was tested in some way prior to manufacture? If so, how did this slip through? And are we sure that this issue is not a proxy for an ASLEF versus Transport Scotland aregument?

 

[ld0595]

I realise this is probably unlikely, but what about the possability of using some of the unrefurbished HSTs?

I know this may not be popular given that the old FGW sets won't be in Scotrail Intercity spec and especailly since the refurbished HSTs are an integral part of the franchise, but surely in the short term that would be better than cutting the timetable to work with 16 sets down for half a year?

 

[hooky3]

apologies if I missed it but is there any reason why Scotrail just didn’t order more 380s since they knew what they were getting with them rather than the 385s?

 

[clc]

Are there any pacers going spare?

 

[glbotu]

For those asking 'why not more 380s' the answer is simple. The manufacturer doesn't make them anymore. They were the last of the Siemens Desiro UK, I believe. Their current offering is the Desiro City (classes 700, 701 and 707), which is also new stock with all the same risks as the Hitachi AT200 (class 385).

 

[NotATrainspott]

How quickly can more 320/4 conversions be done? It seems like the only practical way to get more EMUs into Scotland. It might need some reshuffling in England (e.g. stored 319s replacing 321s) but what else can be done? Minimally-converted 320/4s could take over Glasgow suburban duties to release as many 380s as possible for the E&G.

As a commuter and not a train expert. Can you explain why a completely new train needed to be built when the latest electric train currently on the Edinburgh Glasgow route seems a very acceptable train. Why reinvent the wheel?. A new class surely means more risk less interchangeability. If we have a train that works and has glitches ironed out. Roll more out. More driver flexibility all the benefits of tried and tested. What am I missing in all this. .? If the new trains are delayed till December. And they have lost extisting 170 and the life expired 158 , then 8/9 months of a reduced service on a flagship service. Abellio are toast. This was meant to be the big transport project for Scotland . It's already late and things will be getting worse now. It's Edinburgh trams 2. What's more the snp scot gov can't hide their fingerprints on this project unlike the trams that they opposed. Add to that a delayed Caledonian sleeper. Is all we have to show this year a few refurbished 40 year old 125s. Which could yet still be delayed given Abellios propensity to slip on every available banana skin. As politicians never take any blame then Abellios tenure surely is at an end!

ScotRail and the Scottish Government aren't building the trains. When they need new trains, they go out to ask manufacturers to submit proposals (product details, price, delivery etc). Abellio wanted to get a head start so they started asking manufacturers well before they were awarded the franchise. These new trains have been on the horizon for more than a decade and Hitachi absolutely went for it, as it would be a good opportunity to get their products on the market. Once you've sold one fleet of trains in a country, it's much easier to get other companies to order too. Siemens, the company which makes the trains used in Ayrshire and (for the moment) on the Edinburgh-Glasgow route, either wasn't interested in the Scottish order or wasn't interested enough to be the best-priced option. While it seems like a sensible idea to just order the same type of trains again, you can only do that if the company who makes them actually wants to sell them to you for a reasonable price. Train factories are sometimes busy enough that they're not particularly interested in certain orders. Also, Siemens have updated their designs since their other ScotRail trains were introduced so it is not certain that they wouldn't have problems on introduction as well.

Whether Abellio are toast are not depends on the financial penalties set out in the contract between the Scottish Government and Abellio, and between Abellio and Hitachi. All three players are serious and spend literally millions of pounds on legal and planning when these contracts come up, so it is highly unlikely that Hitachi are getting away with things. However, since these things are highly commercially sensitive, almost no one will ever hear about them. If the contracts are set up as they should, then Abellio won't be paying a penny. Any commercial damage (lost ticket revenue, 'goodwill') caused by the trains not working will have to be paid for by Hitachi. It might be the case that Abellio are officially paying fines to the Scottish Government, but these fines will come from Hitachi rather than Abellio's own pockets.

 

[Mingulay]

What have the SNP done to delay entry into service of these trains? Nothing as far as I can see. It's entirely Hitachi's fault and not Abellios or the Scottish Government's. Of course that is not how far right parties such as the Tory's will push it.

Back on topic, presumably the design was tested in some way prior to manufacture? If so, how did this slip through? And are we sure that this issue is not a proxy for an ASLEF versus Transport Scotland aregument?

What have the SNP done to delay entry into service of these trains? Nothing as far as I can see. It's entirely Hitachi's fault and not Abellios or the Scottish Government's. Of course that is not how far right parties such as the Tory's will push it.

Back on topic, presumably the design was tested in some way prior to manufacture? If so, how did this slip through? And are we sure that this issue is not a proxy for an ASLEF versus Transport Scotland aregument?

I would not call Tory party far right I don't support them either. But as the client and Keith Brown appointed Abellio which I think was a poor choice , they must take the flak. You can bet your bottom dollar the transport secretary would be grandstanding if this project had been on time and deemed a success. I'm just a passenger who pays a lot of money for a second rate service and I can rightly hold the train operator and transport scotlands feet to the fire . I have no relationship with Hitachi. That's for Scotrail to deal with. My question is. Why design a completely new train when existing news class of electrics seem very capable ?

 

[Highland37]

Well said that man.

 

[Mingulay]

For those asking 'why not more 380s' the answer is simple. The manufacturer doesn't make them anymore. They were the last of the Siemens Desiro UK, I believe. Their current offering is the Desiro City (classes 700, 701 and 707), which is also new stock with all the same risks as the Hitachi AT200 (class 385).

Thank you. A straight forward answer. But one assume the design specs and plans could have been bought and restart production under licence. .?