Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[Southsider]

well the rolling programme of electrification will roll to a halt once Stirling-Alloa-Dunblane and Shotts is completed soon. Plenty of suggestions here how the rolling programme should continue to roll on but nothing from ScotGov as to what, if anything, is to be done next. It would be a shame to lose the expertise built up with E&G, Cumbernauld and Rutherglen/Whifflet.

The Scottish Government position is that it is up to local authorities to make the case which is a bit of a change from before and something they may not have been expecting. EK itself could do with an additional platform to enhance capacity and doubling of the single track section has been suggested as necessary to allow four trains per hour. I’ve no idea if that’s the case but, as a short, hilly, heavily loaded commuter line, I would have thought it was an excellent candidate for electrification (as it was deemed in the past).

 

[gingertom]

The Scottish Government position is that it is up to local authorities to make the case which is a bit of a change from before and something they may not have been expecting. EK itself could do with an additional platform to enhance capacity and doubling of the single track section has been suggested as necessary to allow four trains per hour. I’ve no idea if that’s the case but, as a short, hilly, heavily loaded commuter line, I would have thought it was an excellent candidate for electrification (as it was deemed in the past).

I remember many years ago struggling up the hill in a 101 with an engine out. Was a busy service back then. Nowadays a 6-car set is rammed during the peaks. Ideal candidate for electrification and whatever infrastructure mods for 4tph. Plus of course some rolling stock. 385s a bit overkill but I'd rather we had a homogeneous fleet for rostering and maintenance purposes.

 

[InOban]

I think I'm right in saying that the formation has always been single track, and so the creation of extensive stretches of double track will a) have to precede wiring, and b) will take several years. If the enhancement teams are to be kept active, then a more shovel-ready project is required. I understand that there is a group examining what BR-era 'simplifications' could be reversed to make operations in the Glasgow area more robust.

BTW, all the recent posts should be moved to a different thread under Infrastructure.

 

[Southsider]

I remember many years ago struggling up the hill in a 101 with an engine out. Was a busy service back then. Nowadays a 6-car set is rammed during the peaks. Ideal candidate for electrification and whatever infrastructure mods for 4tph. Plus of course some rolling stock. 385s a bit overkill but I'd rather we had a homogeneous fleet for rostering and maintenance purposes.

It would be a pity to lose the momentum and expertise built up over recent years and contractors will be facing a hole in their order books if something isn’t announced soon. Probably best to continue the infrastructure element of this discussion over on the appropriate thread. I agree that 385s are overkill for EK and even more so on the Cathcart Circle but the benefit of a homogeneous fleet must be attractive to Scotrail. I believe the contract option for an additional ten was included with EK in mind.

 

[Southsider]

I think I'm right in saying that the formation has always been single track, and so the creation of extensive stretches of double track will a) have to precede wiring, and b) will take several years. If the enhancement teams are to be kept active, then a more shovel-ready project is required. I understand that there is a group examining what BR-era 'simplifications' could be reversed to make operations in the Glasgow area more robust.

BTW, all the recent posts should be moved to a different thread under Infrastructure.

The line from Busby Junction to Busby is double track but with a few arched bridges that would need replaced. Busby to EK has always been single with passing loops.

 

[XDM]

The line from Busby Junction to Busby is double track but with a few arched bridges that would need replaced.

Unless the Paisley canal electrification approach is adopted. That seems to have saved money without any downside.

 

[gingertom]

Unless the Paisley canal electrification approach is adopted. That seems to have saved money without any downside.

there's freight running along the G&SW but not on the EK branch AFAIK so the Paisley canal approach could be adopted for part of the way, unless dispensations are no longer to be granted... whatever happened to commonsense?
OT for this rolling stock thread though.

 

[mcmad]

Unless the Paisley canal electrification approach is adopted. That seems to have saved money without any downside.

Other than the poor track quality and drainage issues left behind you mean?

 

[Southsider]

The low, arched bridges are why it’s not appropriate or achievable. I’ve referenced the report over on the Scottish electrification thread.
Edit: talking nonsense, I’ve referenced it on the 314 withdrawal thread.

 

[Class 170101]

On the basis that the Class 365s are only likely to be cleared for Glasgow to Edinburgh via Falkirk High route surely now it would make sense to deploy the newer Class 385s on the Dunblane / Alloa and Cumbernauld routes first as they become available and deploy the last Class 385s on the E&G.

 

[385001]

On the basis that the Class 365s are only likely to be cleared for Glasgow to Edinburgh via Falkirk High route surely now it would make sense to deploy the newer Class 385s on the Dunblane / Alloa and Cumbernauld routes first as they become available and deploy the last Class 385s on the E&G.

Or North Berwick/Dunbar? That should get some 380s back to Inverclyde.

Or maybe ScotRail would like to get the 385s with the 365s on E&G and maybe reinstate first class. That must be costing them a fair whack!

 

[92002]

On the basis that the Class 365s are only likely to be cleared for Glasgow to Edinburgh via Falkirk High route surely now it would make sense to deploy the newer Class 385s on the Dunblane / Alloa and Cumbernauld routes first as they become available and deploy the last Class 385s on the E&G.

Not a lot of sense really.
The OHL is only live from Quern Street to Carmuirs Junction.

Will be a couple of months yet before it reaches Stirling. Let alone Dunblane or Alloa.

The feeder station is at Greenhill. So the power needs to come from there.

There's also no masts installed yet around Stirling. Mosty cpmplete to Alloa since its closure and work in progress to Dunblane.

So the easy answer is no.

 

[92002]

I

Unless the Paisley canal electrification approach is adopted. That seems to have saved money without any downside.

If the Paisley Canal approach was adopted on the branch to East Kilbride and the odd bridge cleared on the GSW line it could be a quick fix. Othet than an odd engineers train on the branch there is no other traffic.

It should be noted that dedpite the low wite height on the Canal line nobody has bern compromised or injury incurred.

Whete there a will. Just needs the derrogation to proceed.

 

[Highlandspring]

that’s a very large ‘just’ to actually achieve though, isn’t it.

 

[Southsider]

I

If the Paisley Canal approach was adopted on the branch to East Kilbride and the odd bridge cleared on the GSW line it could be a quick fix. Othet than an odd engineers train on the branch there is no other traffic.

It should be noted that dedpite the low wite height on the Canal line nobody has bern compromised or injury incurred.

Whete there a will. Just needs the derrogation to proceed.

The report I mentioned above explains that Network Rail looked at the possibility of adopting the same approach on the EK line but rejected it as the arched bridges made it impossible to achieve even the reduced clearance. On the plus side there are not that many bridges on the line and not all of them are arched. Of those that are, the one at the north end of Clarkston station carries a main road which would require a lengthy diversion unless the opportunity was taken to build a new bridge adjacent and on a better alignment (the current one is difficult for buses and HGVs to negotiate resulting in a fatality a couple of years back) then demolish the arched one.

 

[92002]

The report I mentioned above explains that Network Rail looked at the possibility of adopting the same approach on the EK line but rejected it as the arched bridges made it impossible to achieve even the reduced clearance. On the plus side there are not that many bridges on the line and not all of them are arched. Of those that are, the one at the north end of Clarkston station carries a main road which would require a lengthy diversion unless the opportunity was taken to build a new bridge adjacent and on a better alignment (the current one is difficult for buses and HGVs to negotiate resulting in a fatality a couple of years back) then demolish the arched one.

Perhaps the solution at Clarkston is a new alignment avoiding the bridge in question. It always has been a problem area.

 

[gingertom]

The OHL is only live from Queen Street to Carmuirs Junction.

been a big splash in the press about the wires to Grahamston going live and test trains running Cumbernauld to Polmont. OLE has been passed ready for use.

 

[Southsider]

Could a mod possibly move our infrastructure chat to the Scottish electrification thread? We’ve got a bit carried away here.

 

[92002]

been a big splash in the press about the wires to Grahamston going live and test trains running Cumbernauld to Polmont. OLE has been passed ready for use.

Yes the power has been put on to Falkirk and Polmont, but thst doesn't solve the problem of getting to Stirling.

It opens up the chance of making Queen Street to Grahamston trains, one sn hour to being electric. Assuming a unit can be found for it and gives a diversion option if the main line is closed.

 

[gingertom]

Yes the power has been put on to Falkirk and Polmont, but thst doesn't solve the problem of getting to Stirling.

It opens up the chance of making Queen Street to Grahamston trains, one sn hour to being electric. Assuming a unit can be found for it and gives a diversion option if the main line is closed.

yes, assuming a suitable, cleared unit could be found for it. It would also release a DMU for use elsewhere. One DMU isn't going to change the world but every little helps. With a solution to the 385's windscreen problem found I think it simpler that we wait until there's sufficient numbers available then there will be the long awaited step-change in services. (no there wasn't a 365 pun there)

 

[92002]

yes, assuming a suitable, cleared unit could be found for it. It would also release a DMU for use elsewhere. One DMU isn't going to change the world but every little helps. With a solution to the 385's windscreen problem found I think it simpler that we wait until there's sufficient numbers available then there will be the long awaited step-change in services. (no there wasn't a 365 pun there)

All this talk of clearing routes by unit type never ceases to amaze me.

Every timr NMT or the esprinter recotding train runs they collect up to date data on all routes and stote it on the NR central gauging computer. So any train can be cleared for any particular route, without the need of a test run. Its already been done by the train recordind.

Most trains are built to a particukar gauging profile and this can be run against the gauging information. Or am I missing something here.

Sounds more like a job creation exercise to me. In fact in Phil Vesters time as MD he was going to move gauging staff from MK back to Glasgow. After all the nonsense getting Flying Scotsman cleared from Edinburgh to Fife, which had to go as far as the Scottish Transport Minister getting the NR boss out his bed early on a Saturday morning to bang heads together.

 

[gingertom]

All this talk of clearing routes by unit type never ceases to amaze me.

Every timr NMT or the esprinter recotding train runs they collect up to date data on all routes and stote it on the NR central gauging computer. So any train can be cleared for any particular route, without the need of a test run. Its already been done by the train recordind.

Most trains are built to a particukar gauging profile and this can be run against the gauging information. Or am I missing something here.

Sounds more like a job creation exercise to me. In fact in Phil Vesters time as MD he was going to move gauging staff from MK back to Glasgow. After all the nonsense getting Flying Scotsman cleared from Edinburgh to Fife, which had to go as far as the Scottish Transport Minister getting the NR boss out his bed early on a Saturday morning to bang heads together.

does seem like bureaucracy hiding behind Health & Safety to avoid doing the simplest of tasks.

 

[Class 170101]

Not a lot of sense really.
The OHL is only live from Quern Street to Carmuirs Junction.

Will be a couple of months yet before it reaches Stirling. Let alone Dunblane or Alloa.

The feeder station is at Greenhill. So the power needs to come from there.

There's also no masts installed yet around Stirling. Mosty cpmplete to Alloa since its closure and work in progress to Dunblane.

So the easy answer is no.

The Class 385s are supposed to be a year away from completion it would be better to use the Class 385s as they come available on the new routes as they themselves are wired) and keep the 365s where they are.

 

[mcmad]

All this talk of clearing routes by unit type never ceases to amaze me.

Every timr NMT or the esprinter recotding train runs they collect up to date data on all routes and stote it on the NR central gauging computer. So any train can be cleared for any particular route, without the need of a test run. Its already been done by the train recordind.

Most trains are built to a particukar gauging profile and this can be run against the gauging information. Or am I missing something here.

Sounds more like a job creation exercise to me. In fact in Phil Vesters time as MD he was going to move gauging staff from MK back to Glasgow. After all the nonsense getting Flying Scotsman cleared from Edinburgh to Fife, which had to go as far as the Scottish Transport Minister getting the NR boss out his bed early on a Saturday morning to bang heads together.

NMT doesn't record gauging data. Believe there are now gauging staff in Scotland (and other routes) as decision making is moved back out from MK into the routes as part of (Network Rail) devolution.

So yes you were missing things

 

[Chuggington21]

Imo there is ONLY 1 place the 385 will run to first and that is queen street. The E&G is the baby of the routes, that's the main one and everything else will play 2nd fiddle to it.

I also don't think it will be a year until we see the 1st one out now. I would be surprised if it's even 6 months. It might take over a year to get the full fleet in service especially since all the units down south still have to do their fault free running but the ones we have here will be more or less done and it will be getting them fitted with the new mod and crew trained up

 

[SC318250]

I also don't think it will be a year until we see the 1st one out now. I would be surprised if it's even 6 months. It might take over a year to get the full fleet in service especially since all the units down south still have to do their fault free running but the ones we have here will be more or less done and it will be getting them fitted with the new mod and crew trained up

Suppose clue will be when the 1st one goes to Glasgow Works

 

[kilonewton]

385s in service by festival time I reckon. Not full service perhaps, but a few.

 

[92002]

NMT doesn't record gauging data. Believe there are now gauging staff in Scotland (and other routes) as decision making is moved back out from MK into the routes as part of (Network Rail) devolution.

So yes you were missing things

Having been on the NMT I know for a fact that it records gauging information.

So sorry your talking nonsense.

 

[InOban]

I had naively assumed that some of the gauging issues arose between plug doors and platforms, which wouldn't be detected by the NRM.

 

[mcmad]

Having been on the NMT I know for a fact that it records gauging information.

So sorry your talking nonsense.

Well just have to agree to disagree on that one then.