ScotRail Class 170's

[reecestrains]

Has anyone else noticed about the interior of ScotRail's 170's, particularly above the luggage racks is looking a little bit tired and potentially in need of a refresh?

The Turbostar is my favourite type of train, and as someone who is from Yorkshire and is on the 170's a lot on the Harrogate Line in Yorkshire, these do look a little bit messy.

 

[AMD]

Notably Brodie Engineering announced last week that they had secured the contract to do the next round of C6 overhauls - https://www.facebook.com/BrodieEngineering

 

[reecestrains]

Oh that's brill! Thanks for sharing. We'll see if they refresh them to Northern's standards as theirs is pretty clean.

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Northern's for Reference:


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Although they replaced the PIS with TrainFX now, I do prefer the Bombardier screens as talked about in the Northern Refurbishments thread.

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Notably Brodie Engineering announced last week that they had secured the contract to do the next round of C6 overhauls - https://www.facebook.com/BrodieEngineering

Just had another read through, it mentions 17 of the Class 170 units. Do you know by any chance if this referring to the older models 170401-415 & 170470-471 or 170393-396, 170425-434 & 170450-452 or the whole fleet of the ScotRail 170's? Hope that makes sense!

 

[chuff chuff]

Has anyone else noticed about the interior of ScotRail's 170's, particularly above the luggage racks is looking a little bit tired and potentially in need of a refresh?

The Turbostar is my favourite type of train, and as someone who is from Yorkshire and is on the 170's a lot on the Harrogate Line in Yorkshire, these do look a little bit messy.
View attachment 169889

Yeah a lot of them running about like that,cabs the same,think it's crap from the air con being wiped about by a damp cloth.

 

[reecestrains]

Yeah a lot of them running about like that,cabs the same,think it's crap from the air con being wiped about by a damp cloth.

Yeah even though Northern's are in better condition than that and were refreshed not long after moving from ScotRail.

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Just done some research, 170401-415 went through C6 in 2016-2017, so I guess it'll likely be 170393-396, 425-434 and 450-452 which are the 17 newer units and they last went through C6 in 2011-2014 I think.

 

[SC318250]

Is 170401 not still at Doncaster Works
Not sure what it there for

 

[scotraildriver]

Is 170401 not still at Doncaster Works
Not sure what it there for

It's back at Haymarket now. It was first in class fitting of variable rate sanders.

 

[reecestrains]

I've noticed a number of HST booked services recently have been swapped for a 3 car Class 170. Couple examples being the 08:38 Edinburgh Waverley to Inverness and the 10:07 Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness. I presume it's similar with Aberdeen services

Realtime Trains | 1H11 1007 Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness | 10/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 1H11 1007 departure from Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness on 10/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Does this typically lead to overcrowding compared to let's say the 12:07 Glasgow-Inverness which is already a 170 booked service?

 

[Scotrail84]

I've noticed a number of HST booked services recently have been swapped for a 3 car Class 170. Couple examples being the 08:38 Edinburgh Waverley to Inverness and the 10:07 Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness. I presume it's similar with Aberdeen services

Realtime Trains | 1H11 1007 Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness | 10/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 1H11 1007 departure from Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness on 10/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Does this typically lead to overcrowding compared to let's say the 12:07 Glasgow-Inverness which is already a 170 booked service?

In the peak periods like summer then overcrowding is very bad if the service is being operated by a single 170. HST failures are causing chaos just now though. The 170s are literally getting run into the ground and some are in dire need of a refurb.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

In the peak periods like summer then overcrowding is very bad if the service is being operated by a single 170. HST failures are causing chaos just now though. The 170s are literally getting run into the ground and some are in dire need of a refurb.

To be honest I think the 170’s are actually ok at the moment. Are they looking perfect? No. But are they looking terrible? Probably not either.

The issue is really the 170’s are at this point commuter trains in ScotRail’s network, really only ideal for the unelectrified local routes in and out of Edinburgh and a select few others. Putting any 170 on a long distance service will have problems, more so when it’s a popular service in question.

 

[reecestrains]

In the peak periods like summer then overcrowding is very bad if the service is being operated by a single 170. HST failures are causing chaos just now though. The 170s are literally getting run into the ground and some are in dire need of a refurb.

Brodie Engineering at Kilmarnock announced a month back that 17 of the units are to undergo C6 next year.

I presume it'll be the newer 170's as the older ones went through C6 in 2016-2017.

Facebook

www.facebook.com

We are delighted to announce that Porterbrook have awarded Brodie Engineering a multimillion-pound contract to perform a C6 Overhaul on a fleet of Class 170 Diesel Multiple Units.
The contract is due to commence in late October 2025.
The scope of the work includes the safety critical overhaul of several components including, but not limited to, brake controllers, batteries, saloon and cab air conditioning, doors, as well as a partial interior refresh and full exterior paint and re-livery.
The 17 Class 170’s, currently on lease to ScotRail, operate on various service lines in Scotland.
The award of this contract further enhances the collaborative tri party working relationship between Porterbrook, ScotRail and Brodie Engineering.

 

[Scotrail84]

To be honest I think the 170’s are actually ok at the moment. Are they looking perfect? No. But are they looking terrible? Probably not either.

The issue is really the 170’s are at this point commuter trains in ScotRail’s network, really only ideal for the unelectrified local routes in and out of Edinburgh and a select few others. Putting any 170 on a long distance service will have problems, more so when it’s a popular service in question.

Some of the interiors are really in bad need of a spruce up.

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Brodie Engineering at Kilmarnock announced a month back that 17 of the units are to undergo C6 next year.

I presume it'll be the newer 170's as the older ones went through C6 in 2016-2017.

Facebook

www.facebook.com

The newer 170s are actually ok, its 401-415 and 470/471 are all from the original batch and they are in dire need of a refurb.

 

[driverd]

In the peak periods like summer then overcrowding is very bad if the service is being operated by a single 170. HST failures are causing chaos just now though. The 170s are literally getting run into the ground and some are in dire need of a refurb.

The 170s at Scotrail are probably the best turned out in the country - compare them to the state of the EMR or XC ones. It doesn't mean they're perfect, but I'd say, as with most things rail, Scotland does very well indeed.

Let's also not forget that, until 4 or 5 years ago, 3 car 170s were the mainstay of many of the Highland routes. Sometimes they would be cozy but they're far from unsuitable. It's not correct to call them a commuter unit - the drive setup isn't optimised at all for start/stop work. They're more regional express units designed for routes with high turnover of customers in mind (ie: Edinburgh - Aberdeen runs).

 

[reecestrains]

The 170s at Scotrail are probably the best turned out in the country - compare them to the state of the EMR or XC ones. It doesn't mean they're perfect, but I'd say, as with most things rail, Scotland does very well indeed.

Let's also not forget that, until 4 or 5 years ago, 3 car 170s were the mainstay of many of the Highland routes. Sometimes they would be cozy but they're far from unsuitable. It's not correct to call them a commuter unit - the drive setup isn't optimised at all for start/stop work. They're more regional express units designed for routes with high turnover of customers in mind (ie: Edinburgh - Aberdeen runs).

While I do like riding on ScotRail's 170's, I will say that Northern's (Ex-ScotRail's) are very clean as they went through a complete refresh looking very tidy, the only letdown with their's is the replacement of the Bombardier PIS to awful TrainFX. EMR, XC and Chiltern are not as good and get overcrowded pretty much all the time.

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Some of the interiors are really in bad need of a spruce up.

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The newer 170s are actually ok, its 401-415 and 470/471 are all from the original batch and they are in dire need of a refurb.

I'm not sure which ones. I would've thought that since those were done more recently, it'd be the newer ones to go through the next rounds of C6.

 

[Scotrail84]

While I do like riding on ScotRail's 170's, I will say that Northern's (Ex-ScotRail's) are very clean as they went through a complete refresh looking very tidy, the only letdown with their's is the replacement of the Bombardier PIS to awful TrainFX. EMR, XC and Chiltern are not as good and get overcrowded pretty much all the time.

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I'm not sure which ones. I would've thought that since those were done more recently, it'd be the newer ones to go through the next rounds of C6.

The ones I mentioned are really looking their ages and will need to keep going for a good few years yet. I'd imagine its them if its 17 of them getting a C6.

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The 170s at Scotrail are probably the best turned out in the country - compare them to the state of the EMR or XC ones. It doesn't mean they're perfect, but I'd say, as with most things rail, Scotland does very well indeed.

Let's also not forget that, until 4 or 5 years ago, 3 car 170s were the mainstay of many of the Highland routes. Sometimes they would be cozy but they're far from unsuitable. It's not correct to call them a commuter unit - the drive setup isn't optimised at all for start/stop work. They're more regional express units designed for routes with high turnover of customers in mind (ie: Edinburgh - Aberdeen runs).

A single 170 on Inverness - Edinburgh/Glasgow runs in the summerAutumn is just no good at all, especially if they've been subbed in for a booked HST, they have much less bike spaces and luggage storage areas, seat numbers don't match the reservations so no reservations available and of course they have fewer coaches too.

 

[reecestrains]

The ones I mentioned are really looking their ages and will need to keep going for a good few years yet. I'd imagine its them if its 17 of them getting a C6.

There's 17 older ones - 170401-415 + 170470-471 and 17 newer ones - 170393-396 + 170425-434 + 170450-452.

The other newer ones which are 170453-461 + 170472-478 moved to Northern back in 2018-2019.

The ones I mentioned are really looking their ages and will need to keep going for a good few years yet. I'd imagine its them if its 17 of them getting a C6.

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A single 170 on Inverness - Edinburgh/Glasgow runs in the summerAutumn is just no good at all, especially if they've been subbed in for a booked HST, they have much less bike spaces and luggage storage areas, seat numbers don't match the reservations so no reservations available and of course they have fewer coaches too.

Back in the summer, I was on the 07:07 Glasgow Queen Street-Inverness which was a 170 allocation and there were no seat reservations on that service. It wasn't rammed though.

I could only imagine what the 10:07 would be like swapped from a HST, or the 12:07 which is 170 allocated.

 

[hexagon789]

There's 17 older ones - 170401-415 + 170470-471 and 17 newer ones - 170393-396 + 170425-434 + 170450-452.

The other newer ones which are 170453-461 + 170472-478 moved to Northern back in 2018-2019.

Back in the summer, I was on the 07:07 Glasgow Queen Street-Inverness which was a 170 allocation and there were no seat reservations on that service. It wasn't rammed though.

I could only imagine what the 10:07 would be like swapped from a HST, or the 12:07 which is 170 allocated.

Traditionally the 070x was the quietest and the 1008/1011-odds the busiest (at least for leisure travel).

That was back when there were just 3 Glasgow to Inverness.

With the addition of two extra services in December 2011, I assume some demand was spread but I feel that today's 1007 is still by a margin the most popular departure, especially in peak tourist season.

The 1907 meanwhile always seems very quiet and I do wonder whether the May 2022 change of this service from an 1811 departure stopping at almost all stations from Larbert to Inverness (everything but Carrbridge) to one an hour later on a semi-fast pattern but also serving Dalwhinnie is really an ideal change. The 1811 used to be quite popular.

 

[Scotrail84]

There's 17 older ones - 170401-415 + 170470-471 and 17 newer ones - 170393-396 + 170425-434 + 170450-452.

The other newer ones which are 170453-461 + 170472-478 moved to Northern back in 2018-2019.

Back in the summer, I was on the 07:07 Glasgow Queen Street-Inverness which was a 170 allocation and there were no seat reservations on that service. It wasn't rammed though.

I could only imagine what the 10:07 would be like swapped from a HST, or the 12:07 which is 170 allocated.

I'd put money on these being the ones going for a C6.

The 20:22 Inverness to Glasgow is a complete waste of time out of season, its not unusual to leave Inverness with single figures on the train including the guard and driver.

During the day (leisure travel hours) Inverness services are generally well populated for most of the year, major drop offs in passenger numbers occur from November to February for obvious reasons. if the 170s were 4 cars it would a big difference to easing the overcrowding.That will never happen though.

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Traditionally the 070x was the quietest and the 1008/1011-odds the busiest (at least for leisure travel).

That was back when there were just 3 Glasgow to Inverness.

With the addition of two extra services in December 2011, I assume some demand was spread but I feel that today's 1007 is still by a margin the most popular departure, especially in peak tourist season.

The 1907 meanwhile always seems very quiet and I do wonder whether the May 2022 change of this service from an 1811 departure stopping at almost all stations from Larbert to Inverness (everything but Carrbridge) to one an hour later on a semi-fast pattern but also serving Dalwhinnie is really an ideal change. The 1811 used to be quite popular.

The late arrival into Inverness puts people off, plus a lot of folk bail at Stirling. Some of the Inverness and Aberdeen services should skip Stirling completely to avoid overcrowding from Glasgow.

 

[hexagon789]

The 20:22 Inverness to Glasgow is a complete waste of time out of season, its not unusual to leave Inverness with single figures on the train including the guard and driver.

Ironically the one service unchanged in 25 years. I often wonder how it loaded back in the 2000s.

 

[reecestrains]

During the day (leisure travel hours) Inverness services are generally well populated for most of the year, major drop offs in passenger numbers occur from November to February for obvious reasons. if the 170s were 4 cars it would a big difference to easing the overcrowding.That will never happen though.

Normally, the 10:32 Edinburgh Waverley to Inverness service has a 170 coupled with a 158 to make a 5 car service but it stops at all stations on the Highland Mainline to Inverness.

The late arrival into Inverness puts people off, plus a lot of folk bail at Stirling. Some of the Inverness and Aberdeen services should skip Stirling completely to avoid overcrowding from Glasgow.

The issue with that is people from Edinburgh way tend to change at Stirling to join Inverness services from there.

 

[Scotrail84]

Ironically the one service unchanged in 25 years. I often wonder how it loaded back in the 2000s.

I cant answer that I'm afraid, it leaves too late for day trippers and commuters, It also leaves too early for matches on at Caley Thistle and Ross County in Dingwall to take supporters back South.

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Normally, the 10:32 Edinburgh Waverley to Inverness service has a 170 coupled with a 158 to make a 5 car service but it stops at all stations on the Highland Mainline to Inverness.

The issue with that is people from Edinburgh way tend to change at Stirling to join Inverness services from there.

Thats booked a 5 car DMU, whether it still is now the timetable has changed I'm not sure. Newtonmore cant take a 5 car either so it causes issues with anyone wanting off there if they are in both portions of the train.

Yes I know, Perth used to be the change point but when the IC7 was imagined up, they diverted Inverness services from Edinburgh via Stirling as its one of the IC7 stations. Edinburgh to Inverness services should run through Fife and miss Stirling, they end up sitting at Larbet Jn waiting on traffic passing on the main line. The timetable is padded though so theres time at Stirling to make it back.

 

[reecestrains]

I cant answer that I'm afraid, it leaves too late for day trippers and commuters, It also leaves too early for matches on at Caley Thistle and Ross County in Dingwall to take supporters back South.

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Thats booked a 5 car DMU, whether it still is now the timetable has changed I'm not sure. Newtonmore cant take a 5 car either so it causes issues with anyone wanting off there if they are in both portions of the train.

Yes I know, Perth used to be the change point but when the IC7 was imagined up, they diverted Inverness services from Edinburgh via Stirling as its one of the IC7 stations. Edinburgh to Inverness services should run through Fife and miss Stirling, they end up sitting at Larbet Jn waiting on traffic passing on the main line. The timetable is padded though so theres time at Stirling to make it back.

We'll find out in the morning, should still be the same. I'm not aware of any changes to it.

I did see that they used to go via Edinburgh Gateway, Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Markinch, Ladybank and then to Perth from there. Wouldn't that mean more capacity issues from those stations too? I'm a little confused.

 

[Southsider]

Ironically the one service unchanged in 25 years. I often wonder how it loaded back in the 2000s.

Isn’t it required to get stock into position for the morning service?

 

[computerSaysNo]

Perth used to be the change point but when the IC7 was imagined up, they diverted Inverness services from Edinburgh via Stirling as its one of the IC7 stations. Edinburgh to Inverness services should run through Fife and miss Stirling

I did see that they used to go via Edinburgh Gateway, Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Markinch, Ladybank and then to Perth from there.

Going via Stirling feels much faster to me than via Fife, especially in a 170 which has poor acceleration especially up hills.
From memory, Haymarket to Perth via Stirling is 80/90/100mph until Polmont, 40mph through Falkirk and Camelon, about 75mph to Stirling, 40mph through Stirling station but that doesn't really matter if you're stopping anyway, then 80/90/100mph from there until the tunnel at Craigend just south of Perth.

From memory via Fife, is 90mph leaving Edinburgh but as soon as you get there you need to slow for the 50mph across the Forth Bridge. 50mph across the bridge and all the way until the other side of Inverkeithing station, then 75mph until Aberdour, I think it slows down through Aberdour but I can't quite remember. Back to 75mph until Burntisland, down to 30mph through Burntisland, back to 75mph I think all the way to Ladybank, 40/50mph from there through the hills to Newburgh and then I think it speeds up again from there until the tunnel at Craigend.

 

[CJSwan]

I live in hope that the external passenger door buttons will receive attention. I’ve noticed in the last year or two many of them have become unresponsive, with passengers thinking the door is out of use and then they do a wee sprint along to another. Some of the buttons need to be pressed for a lot longer than you’d think

 

[chuff chuff]

I live in hope that the external passenger door buttons will receive attention. I’ve noticed in the last year or two many of them have become unresponsive, with passengers thinking the door is out of use and then they do a wee sprint along to another. Some of the buttons need to be pressed for a lot longer than you’d think

Yeah noticed that more and more.

 

[reecestrains]

We'll find out in the morning, should still be the same. I'm not aware of any changes to it.

As mentioned yesterday, the 10:32 Edinburgh Waverley to Inverness service is still a 5 car. A 170 + 158. That would only mean a top speed of 90mph on 100mph sections due to the 158.

Going via Stirling feels much faster to me than via Fife, especially in a 170 which has poor acceleration especially up hills.
From memory, Haymarket to Perth via Stirling is 80/90/100mph until Polmont, 40mph through Falkirk and Camelon, about 75mph to Stirling, 40mph through Stirling station but that doesn't really matter if you're stopping anyway, then 80/90/100mph from there until the tunnel at Craigend just south of Perth.

From memory via Fife, is 90mph leaving Edinburgh but as soon as you get there you need to slow for the 50mph across the Forth Bridge. 50mph across the bridge and all the way until the other side of Inverkeithing station, then 75mph until Aberdour, I think it slows down through Aberdour but I can't quite remember. Back to 75mph until Burntisland, down to 30mph through Burntisland, back to 75mph I think all the way to Ladybank, 40/50mph from there through the hills to Newburgh and then I think it speeds up again from there until the tunnel at Craigend.

I've just been doing the maths... Haymarket to Perth via Stirling is about 68 minutes.

Haymarket to Perth via Fife is about 71 minutes if you include passing all stations except Edinburgh Gateway, Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Markinch and Ladybank. Nearly the same amount of time between the two.

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I live in hope that the external passenger door buttons will receive attention. I’ve noticed in the last year or two many of them have become unresponsive, with passengers thinking the door is out of use and then they do a wee sprint along to another. Some of the buttons need to be pressed for a lot longer than you’d think

Is this on the newer or older 170's?

 

[scotraildriver]

Diverting Edinburgh to Inverness services via Stirling was to give a same platform change for passengers travelling from Glasgow to Inverness. It's now only a few minutes at Stirling on the same platform instead of passengers having to leg it from platform 2 to 7 at perth.

 

[Scotrail84]

As mentioned yesterday, the 10:32 Edinburgh Waverley to Inverness service is still a 5 car. A 170 + 158. That would only mean a top speed of 90mph on 100mph sections due to the 158.

I've just been doing the maths... Haymarket to Perth via Stirling is about 68 minutes.

Haymarket to Perth via Fife is about 71 minutes if you include passing all stations except Edinburgh Gateway, Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Markinch and Ladybank. Nearly the same amount of time between the two.

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Is this on the newer or older 170's?

Invernesses could easily skip those bold stations.

It seems to be the older sets that have most of the 'sticky' door buttons.

 

[hexagon789]

As mentioned yesterday, the 10:32 Edinburgh Waverley to Inverness service is still a 5 car. A 170 + 158. That would only mean a top speed of 90mph on 100mph sections due to the 158.

That and the 1050 Inverness to Edinburgh are timed for 90mph, so it doesn't affect the timings.

There's also a pair of 90mph workings on a Sunday as well.