Scotrail class 156 speculation

[Bikeman78]

When electric trains start running to East Kilbride, will some class 156 go off lease? I count 12 units in the morning peak. Difficult to redeploy them within Scotland without training more crew.

 

[EMU303]

I don’t think it’s yet been established if there are sufficient spare EMUs to run a full electric service. Happy to be corrected though.

 

[Bikeman78]

I don’t think it’s yet been established if there are sufficient spare EMUs to run a full electric service. Happy to be corrected though.

I'm fairly sure there are not, but some 156s will still be freed up. Aside from the West Highland Line, there isn't anywhere else for them to go.

 

[Davester50]

I'm fairly sure there are not, but some 156s will still be freed up. Aside from the West Highland Line, there isn't anywhere else for them to go.

The other G&SW services no?

 

[InOban]

There should be enough emus. After all the services to Ayrshire have never been restored to previous levels.

 

[hexagon789]

There should be enough emus. After all the services to Ayrshire have never been restored to previous levels.

Many services off-peak that were single units during that period are now double though.

There's also one unit on Barrheads and additionally technically nothing replacing the 314s withdrawn in 2019 - it was just rejigging unit diagrams to use the remaining EMU fleet, some 318/320 workings were reduced to single units to account for the 314s being withdrawn.

 

[Davester50]

Many services off-peak that were single units during that period are now double though.

There's also one unit on Barrheads and additionally technically nothing replacing the 314s withdrawn in 2019 - it was just rejigging unit diagrams to use the remaining EMU fleet, some 318/320 workings were reduced to single units to account for the 314s being withdrawn.

Was there not "surplus" 385s after the original EGIP was cut back? I guess they've been redeployed already though.

 

[hexagon789]

Was there not "surplus" 385s after the original EGIP was cut back? I guess they've been redeployed already though.

There are 385s in Inverclyde, which I don't think was part of the original intentions - presumably replacing the former 314 diagrams there.

 

[Davester50]

There are 385s in Inverclyde, which I don't think was part of the original intentions - presumably replacing the former 314 diagrams there.

Thanks, I couldn't remember where they ended up.

 

[Glaswegian]

Was there not "surplus" 385s after the original EGIP was cut back? I guess they've been redeployed already though.

The peak time EGIP service is more or less as originally planned, so there might not be many surplus units?

 

[Davester50]

OT, no. EGIP was planned for much, much more than what has happened. The Dalmeny Chord being the big omission, and fewer trains per hour, along with journey times being not as originally envisaged.

 

[Bikeman78]

The other G&SW services no?

I knew I'd forgotten another route. Looks like there are a few two cars through Kilmarnock currently.

 

[AMD]

I don’t think it’s yet been established if there are sufficient spare EMUs to run a full electric service. Happy to be corrected though.

Correct. From December timetable change it's one diagram all day that goes electric, from my hazy memory if it's currently a 6 car formation it'll still be a 156 from December.

 

[SC318250]

Weekend diagrams should easily be able to accommodate full electric service as there is enough 318/320/334 spare to allow a reshuffle to allow 380 release

 

[Bikeman78]

Correct. From December timetable change it's one diagram all day that goes electric, from my hazy memory if it's currently a 6 car formation it'll still be a 156 from December.

Wow, all that money and disruption for one EMU diagram? Is there a plan in the pipeline to add more? New trains are several years away at best.

 

[Southsider]

Wow, all that money and disruption for one EMU diagram? Is there a plan in the pipeline to add more? New trains are several years away at best.

Seems totally pointless, doesn’t it. I can’t believe a business case was built around one train per hour. Other efficiencies such as one man operation have also been dropped. Yet another transport project out of control.

 

[SC318250]

Should be enough capacity at the weekend. Should be able to move a few sets from Yoker on Friday evening to Shields, then send them back on Monday before peak

 

[hexagon789]

Should be enough capacity at the weekend. Should be able to move a few sets from Yoker on Friday evening to Shields, then send them back on Monday before peak

318/320s to replace 380s on Cathcart/Newton/Neilston to in turn replace 156s on EK?

 

[SC318250]

That was my thoughts or a couple of Inverclyde runs.

 

[hexagon789]

That was my thoughts or a couple of Inverclyde runs.

Good point, forgot Inverclyde. Paisley Canal has some 380s as well IIRC, another possibility?

 

[Bikeman78]

Should be enough capacity at the weekend. Should be able to move a few sets from Yoker on Friday evening to Shields, then send them back on Monday before peak

This all sounds like a lot of hassle. How many spare class 318 and 320 are at Yoker at weekends? The service is very similar to weekdays now. I know this has been discussed before but it's mind blowing that they would electrify a line and then not have electric units to work it. Especially with lots of class 321s having just gone for scrap (which could have been converted) and class 350/2s off lease.

To answer my own original question, it seems that no class 156 will go off lease because they will all still be needed.

 

[Falcon1200]

I know this has been discussed before but it's mind blowing that they would electrify a line and then not have electric units to work it.

I have to agree, especially when Scotrail did so well to get the Class 365 sets up here and into service when the 385 fleet was delayed. Things seem to have gone very much backward since then!

 

[SC318250]

I will try and look but must be at least 4 or 6 diagrams between 318/320/334 spare weekend

 

[snookertam]

Should be enough capacity at the weekend. Should be able to move a few sets from Yoker on Friday evening to Shields, then send them back on Monday before peak

This is not feasible in the slightest. No space nor any paths to do this on repeat every weekend. Nor the drivers either.

Until ScotRail get their new EMU/BEMU order then it’ll be one electric diagram per day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2025 ==

I have to agree, especially when Scotrail did so well to get the Class 365 sets up here and into service when the 385 fleet was delayed. Things seem to have gone very much backward since then!

But there was a complete shortage of trains then, and it was actually a pretty desperate move to bring in the class 365s (not to mention they were awful and had no business being near such a route).

There are enough class 156 units to continue covering the East Kilbride service. There would be no space for a fleet drafted in purely for this route, plus the cost of training traincrews and depot maintenance staff would not be worth it. A temporary fleet is an absolute non starter.

 

[Falcon1200]

A temporary fleet is an absolute non starter.

The additional units, as mentioned earlier, should be of a type already used in Scotland, ie 321 reduced to 3 cars; As has already happened. People will surely be rather disappointed that after weeks of a complete line closure, and other disruption, just one diagram actually goes over to EMUs!

 

[scosutsut]

The additional units, as mentioned earlier, should be of a type already used in Scotland, ie 321 reduced to 3 cars; As has already happened. People will surely be rather disappointed that after weeks of a complete line closure, and other disruption, just one diagram actually goes over to EMUs!

I don't think the majority of users will notice to be perfectly honest, as unless 380 or 385 are sent over they'd still be stepping onto trains that are between 35 and 39 years vintage. The soundtrack and door position would be the only tells.

I can understand the logic of not drafting in temporary stock in the interim now.

But I very much hope that taking 321s was at least looked at before they went to the cutters torch. Even without faffing around reducing them down to 3 cars they could have been put out where 318/320s run singularly meaning it was predominantly 4 car and 6 car running across the whole network.

I don't buy the argument of not enough space in that scenario though. As when the ScotGov finally remove the finger (that they are so well practiced at wedging somewhere decisions do not flow freely from) and actually order something, they'll need space to accept new units anyway.

Or is that another decision that will take millennia to emerge?

 

[Busman84]

So if you kept diagrams solely on EK line without moving onto other lines this would work out a 380 every 90 mins with two other 156s diagrams so that’s worse than one EMU an hour.

Might be possible off peak for the line to solely be 380s but other lines pay the price with carriage reductions or as I’ve said elsewhere in the forum likes of Neilston would be reduced to 3 car 318/320s off peak.

 

[Bikeman78]

This is not feasible in the slightest. No space nor any paths to do this on repeat every weekend. Nor the drivers either.

Until ScotRail get their new EMU/BEMU order then it’ll be one electric diagram per day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2025 ==



But there was a complete shortage of trains then, and it was actually a pretty desperate move to bring in the class 365s (not to mention they were awful and had no business being near such a route).

There are enough class 156 units to continue covering the East Kilbride service. There would be no space for a fleet drafted in purely for this route, plus the cost of training traincrews and depot maintenance staff would not be worth it. A temporary fleet is an absolute non starter.

At what point in the project was it realised that there wouldn't be enough electric trains? Seems like a pretty serious error to me. I doubt anyone would have agreed to all the cost and disruption for a one in three chance of getting a different train. As I mentioned above, the obvious medium term solution would have been more 320s converted from 321s. Space would be freed up for them by sending 156s elsewhere.

 

[Southsider]

At what point in the project was it realised that there wouldn't be enough electric trains? Seems like a pretty serious error to me. I doubt anyone would have agreed to all the cost and disruption for a one min three chance of getting a different train. As I mentioned above, the obvious medium term solution would have been more 320s converted from 321s. Space would be freed up for them by sending 156s elsewhere.

Probably a different project to provide the trains and a similar situation to the project to build the ferries v the project to upgrade Ardrossan. Someone at Transport Scotland should be managing project interdependencies. Perhaps they are and political decisions are being taken to contain costs without realising the implications? We don’t know but the various transport correspondents are beginning to pick up on it.

 

[EMU303]

At what point in the project was it realised that there wouldn't be enough electric trains? Seems like a pretty serious error to me. I doubt anyone would have agreed to all the cost and disruption for a one min three chance of getting a different train. As I mentioned above, the obvious medium term solution would have been more 320s converted from 321s. Space would be freed up for them by sending 156s elsewhere.

Presumably before the first spade hit the ground. I’m guessing the funding was no longer there to electrify and have new trains at the same time, which presumably was the original intent. When the funding was no longer sufficient to do both then a decision was made to keep rolling electrification across the country to keep costs down.
Edinburgh to Dalmeny is being done too and work is starting at Tweedbank to enable a grid feed, in the knowledge both these areas will see BEMUs by around 2030.
What would help is TS finally publishing their long delayed updated decarbonisation plan in order to provide some detailed clarity on next steps.