ScotRail alcohol ban: what should be the policy?

[Russel]

What is this ban actually achieving?

Almost every time I've encountered rowdy drunks, they were like it when they got on!

 

[Mgameing123]

What is this ban actually achieving?

Almost every time I've encountered rowdy drunks, they were like it when they got on!

Less profits?

 

[Indigo Soup]

What is this ban actually achieving?

Almost every time I've encountered rowdy drunks, they were like it when they got on!

Scotland is perceived as having a drinking problem. Something Must Be Done about it.

Banning alcohol on trains is Something. Therefore it Must Be Done. See also minimum profit margin unit pricing, and the ban on off-sales before 1000.

 

[Russel]

Scotland is perceived as having a drinking problem. Something Must Be Done about it.

Banning alcohol on trains is Something. Therefore it Must Be Done. See also minimum profit margin unit pricing, and the ban on off-sales before 1000.

Sad but very true.

Your reply could have also applied to many of the Scotland V England Covid rules a couple of years ago!

 

[al78]

It really is that simple. All it takes is courage and discipline.

And support (good luck if you can get that) and time due to potential withdrawal symptoms. With any addiction, you can't just stop completely tomorrow and that's it problem solved.

 

[Trainbike46]

Scotland is perceived as having a drinking problem. Something Must Be Done about it.

Banning alcohol on trains is Something. Therefore it Must Be Done. See also minimum profit margin unit pricing, and the ban on off-sales before 1000.

The difference of course being that, unlike the Scotrail alcohol ban, the minimum unit pricing has some evidence supporting the policy.

 

[43066]

It really is that simple. All it takes is courage and discipline.

And support (good luck if you can get that) and time due to potential withdrawal symptoms. With any addiction, you can't just stop completely tomorrow and that's it problem solved.

AIUI alcohol addiction is a little different to most addictions in that those who are chemically dependent on alcohol cannot just stop “cold turkey”, and indeed it would be medically dangerous for them to attempt to do so. They really do need to seek medical help beforehand.

I suspect that’s what @Bletchleyite was getting at.

The difference of course being that, unlike the Scotrail alcohol ban, the minimum unit pricing has some evidence supporting the policy.

Agreed - minimum unit pricing has its own problems of course - but is likely more effective than a ban that annoys sensible drinkers, and potentially puts them off using the railway, but does nothing to affect problem drinkers.

 

[Indigo Soup]

The difference of course being that, unlike the Scotrail alcohol ban, the minimum unit pricing has some evidence supporting the policy.

AIUI, the evidence shows that if you make alcohol more expensive, people drink less of it. Which is perfectly reasonable.

Dictating a minimum price to retailers does allow you to achieve this. But the increase in price goes into the retailers pocket. It would, IMO, be more appropriate to levy duty on alcohol at a corresponding rate, so that additional monies go to the public purse. But that would require (a) a fundamental change to alcohol duties, and (b) the Scottish Government to have powers to set them.

I have a suspicion that, if they had the powers and the political capital, the Scottish Government would quite like to establish a state monopoly off-licence similar to the Nordic model.

 

[JamesT]

AIUI, the evidence shows that if you make alcohol more expensive, people drink less of it. Which is perfectly reasonable.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working for the group the policy is aimed at - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61710564

Drinkers who suffered the worst effects of alcoholism did not change their habits when Scotland's minimum pricing was introduced, a study has shown.

Public Health Scotland (PHS) reported minimum unit pricing (MUP) led to some people cutting back on food and energy.

Addicts are going to feed their addiction.

Dictating a minimum price to retailers does allow you to achieve this. But the increase in price goes into the retailers pocket. It would, IMO, be more appropriate to levy duty on alcohol at a corresponding rate, so that additional monies go to the public purse. But that would require (a) a fundamental change to alcohol duties, and (b) the Scottish Government to have powers to set them.

I have a suspicion that, if they had the powers and the political capital, the Scottish Government would quite like to establish a state monopoly off-licence similar to the Nordic model.

Setting a minimum price prevents retailers using alcohol as a loss-leader, which raising the level of duty wouldn't. It also acts as a boost to pubs, as their prices were already above the minimum, unlike supermarkets.

 

[43066]

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working for the group the policy is aimed at - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61710564

Thanks. That confirms what I suspected!

 

[yorksrob]

AIUI, the evidence shows that if you make alcohol more expensive, people drink less of it. Which is perfectly reasonable.

Dictating a minimum price to retailers does allow you to achieve this. But the increase in price goes into the retailers pocket. It would, IMO, be more appropriate to levy duty on alcohol at a corresponding rate, so that additional monies go to the public purse. But that would require (a) a fundamental change to alcohol duties, and (b) the Scottish Government to have powers to set them.

I have a suspicion that, if they had the powers and the political capital, the Scottish Government would quite like to establish a state monopoly off-licence similar to the Nordic model.

I disagree. Minimum unit price is more effective because it removes the dirt cheap booze in supermarkets that seems to be available regardless of eyewateringly high alcohol duty.

Constantly jacking up duty just penalises small business such as pubs and restaurants that have to put it on top of all their other overheads.

 

[BlueLeanie]

I disagree. Minimum unit price is more effective because it removes the dirt cheap booze in supermarkets that seems to be available regardless of eyewateringly high alcohol duty.

Constantly jacking up duty just penalises small business such as pubs and restaurants that have to put it on top of all their other overheads.

And then the low income alcoholics identify that they can use less alcohol by introducing it rectally. Half the alcohol, swifter absorption, significantly more damage.

Minimum pricing makes zero difference to higher income alcoholics. You just need to walk around the private estates on the nights before recycling day and look inside the wheelie bins to realise Scotland's (or UK's) alcohol problem is top-down.

 

[yorksrob]

And then the low income alcoholics identify that they can use less alcohol by introducing it rectally. Half the alcohol, swifter absorption, significantly more damage.

Minimum pricing makes zero difference to higher income alcoholics. You just need to walk around the private estates on the nights before recycling day and look inside the wheelie bins to realise Scotland's (or UK's) alcohol problem is top-down.

Those bottles in wheelie bins have been bought at the supermarket, so are part of the same problem as the cheap plastic bottle of cider. If high income alcoholics aren't put off by a minimum unit price, do you seriously think that they'll be put off by a rise in duty ?

Similarly, for low income alcoholics, if you're not going to do anything about cheap supermarket booze, you may as well not bother trying to control consumption by price at all.

The key thing is that all escalating fuel duty does is kill pubs and restaurants.

 

[al78]

And then the low income alcoholics identify that they can use less alcohol by introducing it rectally. Half the alcohol, swifter absorption, significantly more damage.

Minimum pricing makes zero difference to higher income alcoholics. You just need to walk around the private estates on the nights before recycling day and look inside the wheelie bins to realise Scotland's (or UK's) alcohol problem is top-down.

My questions would be is how does the UK's alcohol problem compare to other westernised countries and if it worse, why? I doubt it is the climate because plenty of countries in Europe and Scandinavia have periods of lousy weather comparable to the UK.

 

[JamesT]

My questions would be is how does the UK's alcohol problem compare to other westernised countries and if it worse, why? I doubt it is the climate because plenty of countries in Europe and Scandinavia have periods of lousy weather comparable to the UK.

It's Scotland rather than the UK as a whole. Scotland's deaths from drink and drugs are several times the rate in the rest of the UK, which makes them amongst the worst in Europe.

 

[Indigo Soup]

My questions would be is how does the UK's alcohol problem compare to other westernised countries and if it worse, why? I doubt it is the climate because plenty of countries in Europe and Scandinavia have periods of lousy weather comparable to the UK.

Most Scandinavian countries have laws around alcohol that make Scotland look laissez-faire, precisely because of historical problems with excessive consumption.

 

[Statto]

What is this ban actually achieving?

Almost every time I've encountered rowdy drunks, they were like it when they got on!

Safer environment for Scotrail staff to work in & for other passengers too, Scotrail had issues with ASB caused by those drinking alcohol on their services, so decided to force a complete ban on drinking alcohol on their services.

How it's enforced is another question entirely.

 

[Russel]

Safer environment for Scotrail staff to work in & for other passengers too, Scotrail had issues with ASB caused by those drinking alcohol on their services, so decided to force a complete ban on drinking alcohol on their services.

How it's enforced is another question entirely.

Has it had a meaningful impact though?

 

[kkong]

Safer environment for Scotrail staff to work in & for other passengers too, Scotrail had issues with ASB caused by those drinking alcohol on their services, so decided to force a complete ban on drinking alcohol on their services.

However, the trade unions whose members work on ScotRail are said to be supportive of the ban being lifted.

As per item 3.3 of the minutes of the ScotRail Trains Limited board meeting of 16 May 2024

Alcohol and anti-social behaviour: JHM provided an update on whether the alcohol ban will be lifted, noting that trade unions are supportive of the lifting of the ban.

 

[Russel]

However, the trade unions whose members work on ScotRail are said to be supportive of the ban being lifted.

As per item 3.3 of the minutes of the ScotRail Trains Limited board meeting of 16 May 2024

Is this because said staff do not want to be responsible for enforcing it?

 

[yorkie]

Is this because said staff do not want to be responsible for enforcing it?

They aren't really responsible for enforcing it; it would be up to the police to do that.

In reality, it is unenforceable the vast majority of the time.

And it only serves to punish the law-abiding majority; those who are causing trouble by excessive drinking will not be deterred by any bylaws!

 

[Christmas]

Is this ban still in force? Coming down from Aberdeen this evening you'd never know drinking was banned.

Why are Transport Scotland dragging their heels here?

 

[Aaron_TTL]

Is this ban still in force? Coming down from Aberdeen this evening you'd never know drinking was banned.

Why are Transport Scotland dragging their heels here?

Was on a Scotrail train yesterday where the conductor said it was banned on all Scotrail services as part of their usual welcome aboard speech, but I guess you need to define 'in force'.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Was on a Scotrail train yesterday where the conductor said it was banned on all Scotrail services as part of their usual welcome aboard speech, but I guess you need to define 'in force'.

There's one guard whose regular schpiel (I've heard it a few times) includes words to the effect of 'alcohol is allegedly banned, so don't let me see you with it'.

I imagine at this point everyone knows it's a ban on paper only, but having it in place means there's a stick with which to threaten obnoxious drinkers without having to prove 'drunkenness'.

 

[kkong]

Joanne Maguire, ScotRail's managing director, gave evidence to the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee yesterday (29 April).

She stated that ScotRail's policy is for on-board staff not to enforce the ban:

The position of ScotRail is we cannot in fact enforce the ban as it is not a matter of law, our staff cannot enforce it.
Our position is if staff are on a train they cannot intervene and ask people not to drink.
There is no statistical link in terms of alcohol consumption and anti-social behaviour on the train but it does remain a policy matter for Scottish government as to whether or not the ban remains in place.

The relevant part of her evidence can be seen from 11:50:07 in the TV coverage of the session, linked below.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee - 29 April 2025

 

[Grinner]

The 2025 Programme for Government includes the scrapping of the ban, finally!

https://www.gov.scot/publications/programme-government-2025-26/pages/5/

ScotRail will continue to implement measures to address anti-social behaviour to protect staff and passengers, particularly unacceptable behaviour targeted at women and girls. This will include further deployment of Travel Safe teams. As part of this continuing programme, we will respond to the concerns of railway staff and others that the current general ScotRail alcohol ban - a last legacy of Covid restrictions - is counterproductive and ineffective and remove the ban on alcohol on trains. We will replace it with new regulations that focus restrictions more effectively on particular times and locations, similar to previous restrictions.

 

[kkong]

An official statement was published today. Alcohol consumption on ScotRail trains will return to the pre-Covid permitted hours of 10:00 to 21:00 with effect from 02 Jun 2025:

Following the recent announcement the ScotRail alcohol ban is to be lifted, a Transport Scotland led Working Group agreed that this should come into effect by 2 June 2025.

From this date, alcohol may be consumed on ScotRail trains between 10am and 9pm. Other restrictions may apply, as determined by ScotRail and BTP, in certain circumstances such as large sporting events or concerts.

I suppose we can finally close this thread?

 

[yorksrob]

Why close it ?

How the ban winds down and the new regulations come in could be worth comment.

 

[AY1975]

Why close it ?

How the ban winds down and the new regulations come in could be worth comment.

Exactly, and it remains to be seen if the refreshment trolleys on ScotRail trains start selling alcohol products again such as beer, wine and whisky from that date.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why close it ?

How the ban winds down and the new regulations come in could be worth comment.

I can't help but wonder why it isn't immediate - or did they create a new Bylaw for it that requires process to repeal? If they did, they could just state they won't enforce it from now on.