Scotrail after independance.

[Cherry_Picker]

Common Travel Area as with Ireland.

There are services between Luxembourg and places in Belgium and Germany, no reason why Anglo-Scottish services wouldn't continue.

That's precisely what the Schengen Agreement is. You can drive all the way from Lisbon in Portugal to Tallinn in Estonia (2700 miles & 9 countries) without going from a border check if you want. Throw in a ferry trip and you can explore all of Scandinavia too.
Open borders are prevalent in western Europe and whatever happens in Scotland I fully expect them to remain open on our little island.

 

[Eagle]

That's precisely what the Schengen Agreement is. You can drive all the way from Lisbon in Portugal to Tallinn in Estonia (2700 miles & 9 countries) without going from a border check if you want. Throw in a ferry trip and you can explore all of Scandinavia too.

Or just drive over the Øresund Bridge (if you can afford the tolls, it's €43 each way in a car).

 

[Oliver]

Why would there be border checks? We would almost certainly draw up a version of the Schengen Agreement with Scotland, wouldnt we?

One of the many bizarre anomalies which might follow a Scottish secession from the UK is that a "new" EU country "must" join the Schengen group (and likewise "must" join the Euro). That would mean that there would be no border controls between France (etc) and Scotland, and therefore border controls would be enforced on the border with England. Mercifully the majority of Scots don't want this, so we're unlikely to find ourselves in such a crazy situation.

 

[transmanche]

One of the many bizarre anomalies which might follow a Scottish secession from the UK is that a "new" EU country "must" join the Schengen group

Although it's far from clear whether an independent Scotland would need to apply for EU membership (as a "new" member) or not.

For example, see this and this.

 

[Oliver]

Although it's far from clear whether an independent Scotland would need to apply for EU membership (as a "new" member) or not.

For example, see this and this.

Agreed - all showing that a "yes" vote would be an extraordinary leap into the dark......

 

[cuccir]

Its reasons such as this I'd prefer a (very) lose federal state dealing with issues of borders, shared infrastructure (ie cross-island(s) networks), defence, shipping and shared heritage only.

In practice, a lot of cross-GB institutions would likely stay, at least for a period of time. For example, I can imagine Scotrail staying as it is until the relevant franchise period has ended. At that point, if the Scottish government wanted to take control of the whole infrastructure+services etc, that would seem to be the appropriate time. Cross-Border services would then have to be run on an agreement between them and Network Rail/ATOC/DfT.

 

[tbtc]

One of the fundamental problems here is that, whilst politicians can argue about what share of state owned things Scotland would get (share of currency reserves, share of UK National Debt, share of armed forces etc), privately owned things are obviously private.

So if we believe the line that Network Rail is a private company (and not a state asset, and therefore not part of our national debt) then presumably track in Scotland wouldn't pass to the Scottish Government and would remain "private"?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Scotrail took some of Northerns 158s id like them back if they go independant.

 

[tbtc]

Scotrail took some of Northerns 158s id like them back if they go independant.

I guess they'd still belong to the ROSCO though, regardless of the political situation - it'd be up to Holyrood if they wanted to purchase the trains from the ROSCO, but "Scotland" wouldn't inherit any actual trains

 

[kieron]

So if we believe the line that Network Rail is a private company (and not a state asset, and therefore not part of our national debt) then presumably track in Scotland wouldn't pass to the Scottish Government and would remain "private"?

Network Rail's constitution is determined by the DfT, so its status would certainly be up for negotiation if the Scots voted for independence.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Network Rail is Private yet Public. Its a grey area indeed on what makes it Private Sector or Public Sector though

 

[HSTEd]

Why would there be border checks? We would almost certainly draw up a version of the Schengen Agreement with Scotland, wouldnt we?

If they want to be in the EU it appears they will have to reapply, which means they will loose any opt outs the UK currently has.

This means they will have to join Schengen and make preparations to join the Euro as all new members do.

This means they can't be in the COmmon Travel Area.

The arguments about whether Scotland would have to reapply are the arguments between those who believe the EU is a collection of sovereign nation states and those who believe the EU is itself sovereign.
AS the latter interpretation opens its own can of worms, the former interpretation is by far the more likely one.

 

[transmanche]

If they want to be in the EU it appears they will have to reapply

Did you read the links in post #34? It's far from certain that they would have to reapply.

 

[HSTEd]

Did you read the links in post #34? It's far from certain that they would have to reapply.

Read the second part of my post.

Claiming that citizens of EU countries are citizens of the EU itself, as would be required to prevent Scotland having to reapply, opens a huge can of worms.

Just imagine what would happen if the euroskeptics throughout the union got hold of the idea that EU nationality had become a seperate thing from nationality in a member state.

Also the people in charge of deciding whether or not they woudl have to reapply are worried about other seperatist movements such as the Basques, Catalans and other groups.
Handing them the ability to stay in the EU on a platter like that would be a disaster for them.

 

[transmanche]

Read the second part of my post.

I did. It didn't address the fact that it is far from clear whether an independent Scotland would need to re-apply for EU membership or not.

 

[HSTEd]

I did. It didn't address the fact that it is far from clear whether an independent Scotland would need to re-apply for EU membership or not.

Actually it does.

The argument that there is a seperate "EU Citizenship" that is independent from citizenship in a member state is a very dangerous concept for the union.

The people who actually have to make teh decision will never choose that over the usually accepted option, which is that there is no EU citizenship.
Like I said, they are never going to hand the seperatists in the Basque and Catalan regions such a prize.

 

[wintonian]

Common Travel Area as with Ireland.

There are services between Luxembourg and places in Belgium and Germany, no reason why Anglo-Scottish services wouldn't continue.

The need for CTA (Common Travel Area) grew out of a similar (although also rather different) set of circumstances with the then Irish Free State - I see no reason why Scotland would not simply be absorbed into this.

 

[Oliver]

The need for CTA (Common Travel Area) grew out of a similar (although also rather different) set of circumstances with the then Irish Free State - I see no reason why Scotland would not simply be absorbed into this.

Ireland is not in Schengen. It stayed out not least because that would have required passport check on the border with Northern Ireland. (There are security checks, but passports are not obligatory.) If Scotland was in Schengen and there were no border controls on the border with England then England would for practical purposes be part of Schengen. While many might see the advantage of this it would, for example, open the door to the hundreds of people from all over the world currently camping out around Calais.

 

[bolli]

Loganair is a subsidiary of FlyBE.

I believe, Loganair is a seperate company from Flybe, however fly under a franchise agreement.

 

[cuccir]

While many might see the advantage of this it would, for example, open the door to the hundreds of people from all over the world currently camping out around Calais.

The entirety of Western Europe, Scandinavia, the Baltic states, Greece, Central Europe and Iceland are in Schengen. I think you over-estimate how much more attractive Britain is than these places for immigrants!

 

[ReverendFozz]

Can someone tell me what Schengen actually is and how does it differ from the Common Travel Area, my limited amount of understanding about it is the CTA is just a smaller version of Schengen.

And what would be more beneficial for an Independent Scotland, surely the CTA is there best bet I would imagine.

In regards of Network Rail, could it not be reconstituted as Network Rail(UK) to be a parent company of a Network Rail(England & Wales) and Network Rail(Scotland).

As for Cross Border Services, I dont why it would be problem, seems to work on the Dublin-Belfast Line.

With regards to Cross Border would a joint deal work for such services e.g Scotrail share the running of the route with East Coast and Virgin, similar to the way the Enterprise is run, is that still shared between NIR and IE.

If Scotland entered Schengen would border posts need to be setup for the same reasons we have border checks for coming and going from Mainland Europe...I used to goto to the Benelux countries and France quite a bit and border checks at the Channel Tunnel seemed to be non-existant most of the time, the only time I showed my passport was when a customs officer probably thought I was dead and had to be shaken half to death to wake me up

 

[michael769]

Common Travel Area is the UK, Republic of Ireland, Isle of Man and The Channel Islands.

Schengen is the EU countries except the UK, Ireland, Croatia, Romania and Cyprus and also includes the non-EU countries of Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland.

 

[ReverendFozz]

So the Common Travel Area is basically a lot smaller version of Schengen, So would Scotland be better off in Schengen or CTA

Sent by Comrade Marxista Fozzski

 

[HSTEd]

So the Common Travel Area is basically a lot smaller version of Schengen, So would Scotland be better off in Schengen or CTA

Sent by Comrade Marxista Fozzski

Probably CTA.

However there is the argument over whether Scotland would be considered to be in the EU or not.

If it is then no problem, if however it is not then it would have a choice between joining the EU and being forced to join Schengen or not joining the EU and requiring border checks with England anyway for VAT enforcement purposes.

 

[Butts]

Common Travel Area is the UK, Republic of Ireland, Isle of Man and The Channel Islands.

Schengen is the EU countries except the UK, Ireland, Croatia, Romania and Cyprus and also includes the non-EU countries of Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland.

Aha, that explains why you get "Duty Free" when travelling to Norway and Switzerland then

 

[Oliver]

The entirety of Western Europe, Scandinavia, the Baltic states, Greece, Central Europe and Iceland are in Schengen. I think you over-estimate how much more attractive Britain is than these places for immigrants!

I'm an not in a position to say whether it would be attractive to me or not, however there is little doubt that it is attractive to many. If not why would these people who are already in France be so determined to enter Britain?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...w-change-on-arresting-illegal-immigrants.html

 

[wintonian]

Ireland is not in Schengen. It stayed out not least because that would have required passport check on the border with Northern Ireland. (There are security checks, but passports are not obligatory.) If Scotland was in Schengen and there were no border controls on the border with England then England would for practical purposes be part of Schengen. While many might see the advantage of this it would, for example, open the door to the hundreds of people from all over the world currently camping out around Calais.

I am fully aware of these very obvious facts, indeed I never even mentioned Schengen. :?

 

[ReverendFozz]

So if Scotland obtain Independece and decide to all in with the EU they will end up being forced into Schengen and adopt the Euro...

A bit off topic what would happen with the Military, we got the navy base at Faslane, RAF stations and army barracks in Scotland. Would they need to form there own armed services or would they look our Military as part of there defence, I read somewhere ages ago quite a few people dont like Faslane as it i am sure it is a nuclear submarine base

Sent by Comrade Marxista Fozzski

 

[ainsworth74]

The military is a huge can of worms and would probably be better discussed in another thread (if we're to do it justice at least).

 

[Eagle]

I'm an not in a position to say whether it would be attractive to me or not, however there is little doubt that it is attractive to many. If not why would these people who are already in France be so determined to enter Britain?

I think it's to do with the fact that these people perceive the UK to have the best quality of life in Europe (which as we know is far from accurate, Germany or Sweden for instance are quite a bit better and are in Schengen).