Scotrail after independance.

[Clip]

I'm on me phone so forgive me as search can't find this sort of query.

If the Scottish people vote for independence what will happen to their railways?

Would they have to split and franchise out their railway as we have? And if not why not?

Would NR still be I n charge of the infrastructure or would it become its own entity in scotland?

what would be the implication for both EC and WC intercity services? Would they still function as they do now?

Sorry if been covered and there may be more questions later when I remember them.

Clip

 

[Wath Yard]

I'm on me phone so forgive me as search can't find this sort of query.

If the Scottish people vote for independence what will happen to their railways?

Nothing. They have responsibility for them now.

Would they have to split and franchise out their railway as we have? And if not why not?

We haven't had to split them into small franchises, that was a decision made by the UK Government.

Would NR still be I n charge of the infrastructure or would it become its own entity in scotland?

what would be the implication for both EC and WC intercity services? Would they still function as they do now?

They're not proposing to dig a big trench! Life, and Anglo-Scottish trains will continue as normal.

Sorry if been covered and there may be more questions later when I remember them.

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Answers in bold.

 

[Clip]

Answers in bold.

Indeed I understand they have hold of their own railway now but from what I think at the moment that's fine as they're part of the UK still so its really just another uk rail franchise. But if they go their own way would they not have to break it up more the way the uk as a whole has?

And yes I know they're not building a big trench but I think what I was getting at is more would they want to stop an inverness or aberdeen train at edinburgh and then run their own onwards if that makes sense?

 

[D365]

Couldn't it be nationalised by the Scots?

 

[Greenback]

I reckon that if scotalnd becomes independent, which is possibly not the same thing as the Scottish people voting for it, then they will be able to do whatever they like/ The only caveat would be that if they remained in the EU they would have to abide by whatever EU Regulations might be in force at the time.

Or, they could just ignore them, like some other countries seem to do!

 

[Trog]

This thread will be moved to the International Section, where a lot less people will read it.

 

[kylemore]

SSR Scottish State Railways

...hopefully

 

[Mvann]

Where would the border checks be?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Why would there be border checks? We would almost certainly draw up a version of the Schengen Agreement with Scotland, wouldnt we?

 

[Essexman]

They wont need a trench. There's already a big wall.

 

[Eagle]

They wont need a trench. There's already a big wall.

A wall which is entirely in England, and is nowhere near the border for most of its length?

 

[mikeg]

I don't know about Scotrail, but would not the Anglo-Scottish services be 'liberalised' (like the airlines), in keeping with European policy on International but Intra-European rail travel? Personally I don't like the sound of that. It would probably also mean the death of Penzance/Kings Cross -Aberdeen and the Highland Chieftan as the focus would be on transferring people between the two countries and leaving it up to the relevant national rail systems to get people around, with the exception of Edinburgh/Glasgow-London.

 

[Eagle]

Why would there be border checks? We would almost certainly draw up a version of the Schengen Agreement with Scotland, wouldnt we?

Highly likely, also I'd be surprised if Ireland weren't in on it as the UK already has such an agreement with Ireland.

Even before we get to all the economical implications and such, it would be very swift political suicide for the border not to be completely open.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I reckon that if scotalnd becomes independent, which is possibly not the same thing as the Scottish people voting for it, then they will be able to do whatever they like/ The only caveat would be that if they remained in the EU they would have to abide by whatever EU Regulations might be in force at the time.

Or, they could just ignore them, like some other countries seem to do!

If Scotland votes for independence, there will have to be a treaty between the "Rump UK" and Scotland on everything, particularly finance.
Potentially Scotland could do what it likes on its side of the border, within EU rules and its own legislation.
They could split NR off completely, and nationalise everything.
They could back out of regulation by ORR and RAIB (assuming they put something similar in their place), ie regulate their own fares, safety, standards etc.

An agreement would be needed on cross-border services (rail, air, road etc).
West Coast/East Coast could be split or run jointly.
Eurostar or Thalys are examples of an EU cross-border model, alternatively DB and SNCF both operate independently across their border (to the same TSI specs).
The Pendolino fleet might have to be split, with Scotland getting, say, 10 trains.
Would you travel on a Scots Pendolino or a "Rump" one (not exactly English, there is a Welsh element as well).
[We would need new names for the UK and Great Britain minus Scotland.]

Local franchising would be up to the Scots (or it could be nationalised or sold off completely).
It will in the end all come down a mix of politics and cost.
Don't be surprised if nothing much changes.
But at the least, Scotland would have an equal say on any remaining UK-wide body, and accept/decline to cooperate with the rest of us.

As another transport example, would Scotland set up its own airline in competition with BA? Probably not; the economics work against it.

My 5p.

 

[Eagle]

The Pendolino fleet might have to be split, with Scotland getting, say, 10 trains. Would you travel on a Scots Pendolino or a "Rump" one (not exactly English, there is a Welsh element as well).

And a Northern Irish element too, don't forget them.

Then again you have to remember that Virgin Trains is a partnership between a company headquartered in England and a company headquartered in Scotland. :P

 

[Lampshade]

Why would there be border checks? We would almost certainly draw up a version of the Schengen Agreement with Scotland, wouldnt we?

Common Travel Area as with Ireland.

There are services between Luxembourg and places in Belgium and Germany, no reason why Anglo-Scottish services wouldn't continue.

 

[johnnychips]

As another transport example, would Scotland set up its own airline in competition with BA? Probably not; the economics work against it.

BA is a company, not a nationalised airline. It will be up to private airlines to decide whether to operate from Scotland. Bet they would scrap APD though!

 

[Eagle]

BA is a company, not a nationalised airline. It will be up to private airlines to decide whether to operate from Scotland. Bet they would scrap APD though!

They might end up picking a nominal flagbearer airline*, although it's not necessary (the US notably doesn't have a flagbearer).

*although having said that I don't think there are any international passenger airlines that can claim to be at all Scottish.

 

[p123]

Maybe not likely given that the guidelines state that onboard staff must speak at least two or more languages for this (which wouldn't be required in this case), but it might be nice after independence for ECML and WCML services to run under the EuroCity banner? Would keep our 'international' travel organised in line with the rest of Europe.

 

[Butts]

I reckon that if scotalnd becomes independent, which is possibly not the same thing as the Scottish people voting for it, then they will be able to do whatever they like/ The only caveat would be that if they remained in the EU they would have to abide by whatever EU Regulations might be in force at the time.

Or, they could just ignore them, like some other countries seem to do!

I don't think we will become Independent....after losing the referendum Devo-Max option will appear on the horizon which is more appealing to most voters.

As well as Scots there will be English, Welsh and Irish (both) and others resident entitled to partake in the proceedings.

Fortunately those "Tartan Coconuts" who espouse their love of Scotland while residing in the Home Counties will not be able to vote. !!

Immediate action in the event of a yes vote - kick Northern and their "tonka trains" out of Scotland and send them the remainder of Scotrails holding.

Reintroduce smoking carriages....

I agree with abolishing APD.....

Hee Hee !!

 

[Eagle]

Maybe not likely given that the guidelines state that onboard staff must speak at least two or more languages for this (which wouldn't be required in this case), but it might be nice after independence for ECML and WCML services to run under the EuroCity banner? Would keep our 'international' travel organised in line with the rest of Europe.

But Eurostar isn't part of EuroCity, and neither is Enterprise for that matter. (Oddly, Dutchflyer is, despite being two domestic trains and a ferry.)

 

[Butts]

They might end up picking a nominal flagbearer airline*, although it's not necessary (the US notably doesn't have a flagbearer).

*although having said that I don't think there are any international passenger airlines that can claim to be at all Scottish.

"I wish they could all be Caledonian girls" - BA could revive British Caledonian whom most members are to young to remember.

 

[Eagle]

See when I think of a Scottish airline I think of this programme...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And a Northern Irish element too, don't forget them.

Then again you have to remember that Virgin Trains is a partnership between a company headquartered in England and a company headquartered in Scotland. :P

Well NI doesn't come into GB railways (obviously it does in UK terms).
I don't think company HQs come into it.
They are all EU companies and can trade anywhere.
The difference is that Virgin Trains is currently franchised to the (UK) DfT whereas even if ICWC continues past independence, a new franchise would have to be awarded by DfT and Transport Scotland together (or dismantled).
I could see the Anglo-Scottish services being separately run from the local North or South bits.
Something like a return to LNWR and Caledonian locally, with joint cross-border services.
(Remembering that the Caledonian had a large LNWR shareholding in London!)
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BA is a company, not a nationalised airline. It will be up to private airlines to decide whether to operate from Scotland. Bet they would scrap APD though!

Yes of course, I know that.
But you know what I mean. Heathrow will remain the British Isles air hub.
Not everything will change, even if the SNP wants it to.

 

[ainsworth74]

Immediate action in the event of a yes vote - kick Northern and their "tonka trains" out of Scotland and send them the remainder of Scotrails holding.

Northern Rail don't have anything to do with Scotland (beyond driving some of their trains between Carlisle and Newcastle) so you'll struggle to kick them very far!

In the event of independence I do wonder what will happen to the infrastructure. Does Network Rail's Scottish division have sufficient equipment to be totally responsible for maintenance of the rails up there by itself? Or will it have to rent things from rUK like test trains for example? Also what about functions like the RAIB? Will Scotland bother setting up it's own equivalent? It looks like there are two ongoing investigations relating to Scotland. Would it be worth setting up a whole board just for two or so investigations a year?

 

[Trog]

Then again you have to remember that Virgin Trains is a partnership between a company headquartered in England and a company headquartered in Scotland. :P

You have to admire Richard Branson he does not miss a trick.

 

[Butts]

Northern Rail don't have anything to do with Scotland (beyond driving some of their trains between Carlisle and Newcastle) so you'll struggle to kick them very far!

In the event of independence I do wonder what will happen to the infrastructure. Does Network Rail's Scottish division have sufficient equipment to be totally responsible for maintenance of the rails up there by itself? Or will it have to rent things from rUK like test trains for example? Also what about functions like the RAIB? Will Scotland bother setting up it's own equivalent? It looks like there are two ongoing investigations relating to Scotland. Would it be worth setting up a whole board just for two or so investigations a year?

Sorry..looking back NR refers to Network Rail not Northern Rail in the OP.

Don't tax you cranial area too much about Rail Maintenance - the Vote will be a resounding NO.

Are there any "Tartan Coconuts" in Redcar ?

 

[LE Greys]

I don't know about Scotrail, but would not the Anglo-Scottish services be 'liberalised' (like the airlines), in keeping with European policy on International but Intra-European rail travel? Personally I don't like the sound of that. It would probably also mean the death of Penzance/Kings Cross -Aberdeen and the Highland Chieftan as the focus would be on transferring people between the two countries and leaving it up to the relevant national rail systems to get people around, with the exception of Edinburgh/Glasgow-London.

I was in Aberdeen last time someone suggested that. There was an unbelievable fuss kicked up! Quite a few people up there are not very happy with the Central Belt/Edinburgh Elite, and the oil companies in particular were against it, since they operate along the English coast as well and need to move people up and down from Aberdeen all the time.

 

[johnnychips]

But you know what I mean. Heathrow will remain the British Isles air hub.
Not everything will change, even if the SNP wants it to.

The only Scottish-based airline I can think of is BMI Regional, in Aberdeen. Loganair is a subsidiary of FlyBE.

 

[Butts]

I was in Aberdeen last time someone suggested that. There was an unbelievable fuss kicked up! Quite a few people up there are not very happy with the Central Belt/Edinburgh Elite, and the oil companies in particular were against it, since they operate along the English coast as well and need to move people up and down from Aberdeen all the time.

Well spotted there is a "North/South Divide" up here as well - living in Stirlingshire I'm just above the "Southern Line"

Ref: 1745 and all that !!!
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The only Scottish-based airline I can think of is BMI Regional, in Aberdeen. Loganair is a subsidiary of FlyBE.

Flyglobespan was probably the last went belly up a few years back..