Scotrail, Abellio and April

[JamesT]

Given the SG investment, and even UKG investment in Rail, at this time its difficult to find evidence to support the theory that anyone wants to see cuts to the rail network.

There are absolutely ongoing discussions around cost, subsidy, public patronage etc, but I dont think we are quite at the stage where cuts are being actively promoted or pursued.

Surely the consultation on the upcoming timetable was evidence that cuts are being considered? When it talks about seats being empty 77% of the time there’s a clear narrative of over-provision that needs trimming.

 

[Edinburgh1987]

I see the unions are still banging on about being key workers.

Not going to lie but if these strikes go ahead, Scotland’s railways won’t fare to well with all the potential disruption.

Why wouldn't they?

They were told they were key workers and made to work during the pandemic.

Now its over should they just forget it? Or is it just the case of tell them they are key workers to get what you want from them and then once you've used them not reward them?

 

[Wynd]

Yes - travelled from Inv this morning at around 10.46 on the Edinburgh Train - note a 170 which was packed, yet there was an HST sitting to go to Aberdeen which would have left almost empty!!! Come on ScotRail - the HST promise has been a complete failure!

Scotrail really do need to sort this out and get ALL the HSTs out on to the intercity services between Inv/Aberdeen and Glasgow/Edinburgh. Its shambolic that we are stuffed in to 170s whilst HST sit empty.

 

[scotraildriver]

They will never be all HST as there isnt enough space at Inverness to accomodate all services and overnight stabling and there has to be class 158/170 moves to and from the central belt for maintenance purposes. However looking at our new diagrams there appear to be at least 14 five car sets in use from May so at least thats something. 14 is the highest numbered 5 car diagram i've seen, there may be more.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Why wouldn't they?

They were told they were key workers and made to work during the pandemic.

Now its over should they just forget it? Or is it just the case of tell them they are key workers to get what you want from them and then once you've used them not reward them?

Well the NHS didn't get much and many of them were putting their wellbeing and lives on the line but this is a societal issue that we don't value those that do so much to ensure our society functions effectively and too many of us just take it for granted or actually worse expect it but don't want to pay for it. That said the reality is patronage isn't where it was, especially in Scotland, and whilst there are plenty of trains with PIXC there are more with far too many empty seats ( it's the same in some parts of the SE as well so Scotrail isn't alone). Personally i believe there will come a time when we look back and see franchising wasn't as evil as we thought as the operator socialised the loss makings services through the overall franchise bid and TfS/DfT never concerned themselves with day to day management. Now revenue risk is in the hands of TfS/DfT they are micro managing it and there is tendency to become too narrow minded when you involve people that are supposed to strategic in tactical issues.

 

[lachlan]

Well the NHS didn't get much and many of them were putting their wellbeing and lives on the line but this is a societal issue that we don't value those that do so much to ensure our society functions effectively and too many of us just take it for granted or actually worse expect it but don't want to pay for it. That said the reality is patronage isn't where it was, especially in Scotland, and whilst there are plenty of trains with PIXC there are more with far too many empty seats ( it's the same in some parts of the SE as well so Scotrail isn't alone). Personally i believe there will come a time when we look back and see franchising wasn't as evil as we thought as the operator socialised the loss makings services through the overall franchise bid and TfS/DfT never concerned themselves with day to day management. Now revenue risk is in the hands of TfS/DfT they are micro managing it and there is tendency to become too narrow minded when you involve people that are supposed to strategic in tactical issues.

The other way of looking at this is that to meet climate targets car use and flights taken must be reduced and as a result rail patronage will have to exceed what it was before. Making cuts to the network and to staff wages is not the way to encourage growth in rail usage.

 

[320320]

That will be same ASLEF thats been calling for national ownership of operators and calling out the profits made by the private companies running the services. Wasn't so bad after all.

With Shapps laying it on thick at the Transport Committee last week over how much the industry has received in taxpayers support and protected every job my intuition is they expect the staff to respond in kind with pay restraint. The fact that Scotrail was reported as well behind the national recovery in passenger numbers means the bottom line is under pressure hence the timetable being cut back so minimal cash in the kitty for a pay rise.

It seems that the threat of a ballot for strike action and action short of a strike has caused Joanne Maguire to put out a staff memo to say that scotrail are willing to negotiate on the 2.2% pay rise and 5% bonus payment scheme.

I can see a deal being done before the 11th of may when the offer was to be reported back to the EC.

 

[takno]

Well the NHS didn't get much and many of them were putting their wellbeing and lives on the line but this is a societal issue that we don't value those that do so much to ensure our society functions effectively and too many of us just take it for granted or actually worse expect it but don't want to pay for it. That said the reality is patronage isn't where it was, especially in Scotland, and whilst there are plenty of trains with PIXC there are more with far too many empty seats ( it's the same in some parts of the SE as well so Scotrail isn't alone). Personally i believe there will come a time when we look back and see franchising wasn't as evil as we thought as the operator socialised the loss makings services through the overall franchise bid and TfS/DfT never concerned themselves with day to day management. Now revenue risk is in the hands of TfS/DfT they are micro managing it and there is tendency to become too narrow minded when you involve people that are supposed to strategic in tactical issues.

The numbers not being where they were for ScotRail is being driven by the government's very slow removal of restrictions (which should cause a big bump in the next set of figures), and the cack-handed cuts which make the service much less convenient or practical to use. Using this to justify further cuts or to cause a rail strike is the very definition of a death-spiral

 

[Davester50]

The numbers not being where they were for ScotRail is being driven by the government's very slow removal of restrictions (which should cause a big bump in the next set of figures), and the cack-handed cuts which make the service much less convenient or practical to use. Using this to justify further cuts or to cause a rail strike is the very definition of a death-spiral

Yes, very much this.
(And the shorthand is not TfS, there's no "for")

 

[Deltic1961]

Yes, agreed. Keeping masks for almost 3 months longer than England has had a huge impact on business because people still saw a perceived risk.

Couldn't believe the difference going to England in the last week of the masks still being in place up here. It was like night and day.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes, agreed. Keeping masks for almost 3 months longer than England has had a huge impact on business because people still saw a perceived risk.

Couldn't believe the difference going to England in the last week of the masks still being in place up here. It was like night and day.

It's also the case that while the Westminster government went OTT in instilling in us that public transport was dangerous and must be avoided, the Scottish government went even further. Now the chickens are coming home to roost.

 

[InOban]

Not all key workers were equally key. We could not have survived without the NHS staff or the food distribution system. Scotland could still have functioned without its passenger trains.

 

[Dryce]

Why wouldn't they?

They were told they were key workers and made to work during the pandemic.

Now its over should they just forget it? Or is it just the case of tell them they are key workers to get what you want from them and then once you've used them not reward them?

Being 'key' meant that you weren't laid off or furloughed.

It also meant that if government backed then your job and income was effectively guaranteed during the pandemic.

Not everybody had that luxury or safety net.

 

[lachlan]

Not all key workers were equally key. We could not have survived without the NHS staff or the food distribution system. Scotland could still have functioned without its passenger trains.

This isn't true as many other key workers will rely on trains and buses to commute. Not everyone owns a car.

EDIT: Additionally I took the train to give blood, an activity still required during the pandemic.

 

[380101]

It seems that the threat of a ballot for strike action and action short of a strike has caused Joanne Maguire to put out a staff memo to say that scotrail are willing to negotiate on the 2.2% pay rise and 5% bonus payment scheme.

I can see a deal being done before the 11th of may when the offer was to be reported back to the EC.

Unlikely that there will be any improved offer made before the 11th of May that will meet the aspirations of ASLEF and their members. The "bonus" scheme is alot of nonsense and will never result in staff being paid anything extra! Abellio promised a similar scheme where staff would be rewarded if certain targets were met. In 7 years one of the 5 targets was met and staff got a minute additional payment.

Any deal that ties drivers into a revenue target will be rejected as drivers have absolutely no influence on revenue collection. The easiest way for ScotRail to increase their revenue income would be to properly staff trains and stations to collect all the revenue that currently walks out the stations on a daily basis as gateline barriers go unstaffed.

 

[Berliner]

This isn't true as many other key workers will rely on trains and buses to commute. Not everyone owns a car.

I used the trains almost daily during the height of lockdowns to get to and from work. I certainly saw regulars on the services I used. Usually medical, retail staff or police using the trains to go back and forward as well as of course, train crew. The country most certainly did need public transport and the trains ensured that was available to as many as possible like you say, not everyone has a car or access to one, in addition to that, not every company has the money to fork out for taxis for staff and in any event car sharing was heavily frowned upon at the time.

 

[43096]

Any deal that ties drivers into a revenue target will be rejected as drivers have absolutely no influence on revenue collection. The easiest way for ScotRail to increase their revenue income would be to properly staff trains and stations to collect all the revenue that currently walks out the stations on a daily basis as gateline barriers go unstaffed.

Good to know that although drivers have no influence on revenue collection, from the comfort of their cabs they are experts on all the uncollected revenue that walks out of the station.

That extra revenue is only worth collecting if the additional cost of doing so is less than the revenue.

 

[InOban]

I didn't say we could have functioned without public transport. In almost all of scotland, that will mean the bus. There are a few routes where extra buses would have been needed if the trains had been withdrawn during Covid (eg Stirling to Edinburgh ) I'm not saying that railway staff , and indeed all public sector workers, should not get an increase at around the inflation rate . Just don't be greedy.

 

[Berliner]

I didn't say we could have functioned without public transport. In almost all of scotland, that will mean the bus. There are a few routes where extra buses would have been needed if the trains had been withdrawn during Covid (eg Stirling to Edinburgh ) I'm not saying that railway staff , and indeed all public sector workers, should not get an increase at around the inflation rate . Just don't be greedy.

Why is it seen as greedy? Of other sectors stood up for themselves like public transport workers do, then everyone might actually get a decent wage/conditions/protections.

Don't criticise those who are willing to fight for more.

 

[Deltic1961]

At least railway workers still had an income. Both myself and my wife are self employed and lost many months of clients.... and the SEISS awards were far less than the lost revenue. Some months we took no money at all.

We were effectively banned from working while rail staff were fully paid for staffing empty trains

 

[lachlan]

At least railway workers still had an income. Both myself and my wife are self employed and lost many months of clients.... and the SEISS awards were far less than the lost revenue. Some months we took no money at all.

We were effectively banned from working while rail staff were fully paid for staffing empty trains

As already established public transport workers were providing an essential service by ensuring other folks can get to work.

 

[Deltic1961]

Yes I understand that howeveer as stated they were paid a wage when many people lost income. To expect a large payrise on top when the railways are struggling for revenue won't get any sympathy from me.

We would have loved to still be working during the pandemic instead of shut down.

 

[Falcon1200]

Making cuts to the network and to staff wages is not the way to encourage growth in rail usage.

Nor is striking, or even just threatening to strike - That is enough to dent confidence in travelling by train.

 

[Wynd]

Nor is striking, or even just threatening to strike - That is enough to dent confidence in travelling by train.

This is it, a strike will only undermine the income of the railways further. Which would lead to cuts...

 

[PG]

Extremely difficult to justify a rail link to TECA when there is a more pressing, and justifiable, need to get Peterhead back online.

I'm certainly no expert in construction costings but I'd bet the former would work out an order of magnitude less than the latter! Pretty irrelevant anyway seeing as how neither are likely to happen anytime soon or even in the next ten to fifteen years...

 

[43066]

Good to know that although drivers have no influence on revenue collection, from the comfort of their cabs they are experts on all the uncollected revenue that walks out of the station.

Why not? You’ve said you don’t even work in the industry, yet that doesn’t seem to stop you from being an “expert” on railway staff Ts and Cs…

I'm not saying that railway staff , and indeed all public sector workers, should not get an increase at around the inflation rate . Just don't be greedy.

I don’t think anyone has asked for more than that, have they?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 May 2022 ==

Yes I understand that howeveer as stated they were paid a wage when many people lost income. To expect a large payrise on top when the railways are struggling for revenue won't get any sympathy from me.

At least railway workers still had an income. Both myself and my wife are self employed and lost many months of clients...

Well I’m sorry to hear that, but still. Yes employees get paid when they’re on holiday, when they’re sick etc. Presumably you knew that when you chose to become self employed, yet did so anyway because you felt the advantages outweighed the disadvantages? That’s not a choice rail staff (or traditional employees in any industry) have taken.

At least railway staff kept working for the income they received. Millions of people were paid an income *without* working.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes, agreed. Keeping masks for almost 3 months longer than England has had a huge impact on business because people still saw a perceived risk.

Couldn't believe the difference going to England in the last week of the masks still being in place up here. It was like night and day.

I was in Edinburgh for a week in late Feb and made extensive use of Lothian and East Coast Buses and was surprised at the level of patronage on the buses and the very high mask compliance rates far more than TfL were ever able to achieve. I used many trains as well and some were very well loaded others poorly loaded especially any EMU doing one of the less than direct services to Glasgow which in one occasion I was only person in the coach from Haymarket to Central.

 

[takno]

Yes I understand that howeveer as stated they were paid a wage when many people lost income. To expect a large payrise on top when the railways are struggling for revenue won't get any sympathy from me.

We would have loved to still be working during the pandemic instead of shut down.

Rail staff probably wouldn't be too of my list for a proper pay rise, but I don't think it's in anybody's interest for the government to continue pursuing their war on public sector employees. The fact that rail unions were so keen for them to join this unhappy family is probably something the rank and file should take up with the assorted communists and crooks who form their executive committees, but it's hardly some cause for celebrationm

I'm sorry that you suffered through this absurd pointless destructive lockdown, but seriously, punch upwards

 

[Wynd]

I'm certainly no expert in construction costings but I'd bet the former would work out an order of magnitude less than the latter! Pretty irrelevant anyway seeing as how neither are likely to happen anytime soon or even in the next ten to fifteen years...

The TECA link has been costed at a staggering £170 million for a mile of track. Insane.

Peterhead would be around £400m.

 

[Mag_seven]

As Abellio are no longer running Scotrail (1st April has now passed) this thread has run its course.