Scotland Route Study

[47271]

Perth station, argh! It's got to be Scotland's gloomiest place on a dull winter day.

I'd turn the whole rambling leaky mouldy thing into the Scottish National Railway Museum, with an area to view service trains as they roll by. It's practically a museum with train viewing facilities as it is for most passengers given its time warp ambience, the absurd length of the platforms and trains stopping where they're least expected. Then resite a new station around and to the south of St Leonards Bridge. There's enough space in the old sidings. We could all change trains quickly and efficiently with proper waiting facilities!

I'm (sort of) joking obviously but the site isn't at all conducive to efficient operation and needs more of a rethink that it's ever been afforded.

I'm not sure if 5 and 6 were ever through platforms but I do know that the facade on platform 4 was at one time the front entrance - that's why it's quite as enormous and fancy as it is. The overall roof and platforms 3 and 4 came later to join with the lines to Dundee, platforms 1 and 2 as they are now.

 

[edwin_m]

Which of those projects do you think is in the wrong band?

I'd have thought a new Ladybank station on a new site would merit at least ££ when compared with the others that are just £. And "Dunfermline Bypass" sounds like it deserves a ££££ category all of its own!

Conversely £££ seems a lot for signalling enhancements Dunblane to Perth if it's on the back of a signalling renewal, unless they've counted the cost of the renewal in as well.

 

[najaB]

I'd have thought a new Ladybank station on a new site would merit at least ££ when compared with the others that are just £.

It's all railway land so should "only" cost a couple of tens of millions.

And "Dunfermline Bypass" sounds like it deserves a ££££ category all of its own!

It's largely reinstating a railway that used to exist, so a lot of it depends on how good a state the earthworks are in, and if the land has been built on.

Conversely £££ seems a lot for signalling enhancements Dunblane to Perth if it's on the back of a signalling renewal, unless they've counted the cost of the renewal in as well.

I suspect it's the cost of the whole project.

 

[clc]

See this March 2015 letter from ORR to Network Rail:


http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/17609/cp5-enhancements-delivery-plan-march-2015.pdf

So definitely nothing until July 2016 at the earliest.

If you want a clue as to what isn't going to be in it though you can look at the Scotland Route Study draft:


So we can assume Highland Main Line improvements will be going ahead, will deliver the capacity for hourly services and a 10 minute improvement but is not anticipated to include any of those interventions listed above that are options for CP6/7.

I'm sure I read somewhere (probably on here) that the phase 2 works would be based on the options set out in the Highland 'Room for Growth' Study which were:-

- Line speed improvements as per 1998 Scott Wilson Report:
• Plain line realignment and recanting along the route;
• Works to underbridges where restrictions existed, namely bridges 90,91 and 346;
• Works to Kingswood tunnel;
• Formation widening north of Stanley Junction; and
• Enhancement work to the S&C at Dunkeld.
Cost - £14m (2006 prices)

- Upgrade Ladybank to Hilton Junction - £12m

- Double line from Daviot to Culloden - £17m

- Reinstate Ballinluig Loop - £5m

- Reinstate Newtonmore Loop - £6.5m

TOTAL £54.5m (2006 prices)

This article indicates that NR has a budget of £120m for the phase 2 works:
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/f...to-invest-millions-in-highland-rail-services/

Allowing for inflation that would be in the 'Room for Growth' ballpark.

 

[snowball]

And "Dunfermline Bypass" sounds like it deserves a ££££ category all of its own!

It's largely reinstating a railway that used to exist, so a lot of it depends on how good a state the earthworks are in, and if the land has been built on.I suspect it's the cost of the whole project.

Was there once a direct line from Inverkeithing to Cowdenbeath?

There are some bits that look like hints of one on OS 1:25000 mapping, but I can't find any actual line on old-maps.co.uk.

Edit: I see from openrailwaymap that there was the Fordell Railway, with its south end at Dalgety Bay, further east than I was looking. I think a direct line from Inverkeithing would be more attractive.

 

[Altnabreac]

Was there once a direct line from Inverkeithing to Cowdenbeath?

There are some bits that look like hints of one on OS 1:25000 mapping, but I can't find any actual line on old-maps.co.uk.

Edit: I see from openrailwaymap that there was the Fordell Railway, with its south end at Dalgety Bay, further east than I was looking. I think a direct line from Inverkeithing would be more attractive.

I'd agree that the line is likely to be entirely new and any reuse will be accidental rather than intentional.

It certainly isn't a cheap or easy intervention which is why it hasn't made any rapid progress since being identified by the STPR in 2008. The strategic need is still there however so hopefully it will happen.

My view however is still that it should really be extended to Perth (and St Madoes) to generate the full possible benefits. That would be an order of magnitude more expensive however so I can see the value in running only to Halbeath initially. Hopefully it would be futureproofed in such a way as to allow northward extension to follow as required.

 

[47271]

For anyone who's interested in through running at platforms 5 and 6 at Perth, the canopy arrangement here indicates pretty conclusively that if they ever were continuous platforms they probably ceased to be in the nineteenth century.

The old north terminating platforms, presumably 8 and 9, are now the car park area beyond the clock, and in turn become the fuelling bay as you head further out.

I suppose that if they did away with platforms 3 and 4 then there's an opportunity to bring vehicles in from Glasgow Road and partially return the 1840s frontage to its original use. There's been a lot of talk in the last few years of moving the bus station to the existing front door area, so I can just about see how it could all work.

£££ - to quote posts upthread - to do this and make the enormous rickety old place a credit to the city. Hilariously I spotted a plaque on part of it the other day declaring it the best restored station - in 1986!

 

[deltic08]

Perth station, argh! It's got to be Scotland's gloomiest place on a dull winter day.

I'd turn the whole rambling leaky mouldy thing into the Scottish National Railway Museum, with an area to view service trains as they roll by. It's practically a museum with train viewing facilities as it is for most passengers given its time warp ambience, the absurd length of the platforms and trains stopping where they're least expected. Then resite a new station around and to the south of St Leonards Bridge. There's enough space in the old sidings. We could all change trains quickly and efficiently with proper waiting facilities!

I'm (sort of) joking obviously but the site isn't at all conducive to efficient operation and needs more of a rethink that it's ever been afforded.

I'm not sure if 5 and 6 were ever through platforms but I do know that the facade on platform 4 was at one time the front entrance - that's why it's quite as enormous and fancy as it is. The overall roof and platforms 3 and 4 came later to join with the lines to Dundee, platforms 1 and 2 as they are now.

The original part was a vibrant station until the Forfar route closed in 1966. It could be again if this route was ever reinstated.

I can remember leaving a north facing bay in 1965, very early in the morning, on a stopping train to Aberdeen via Forfar hauled by A4 60026 Miles Beevor. Those were the days when every train was interesting and exciting to ride in compared to todays trains.

 

[route:oxford]

Well the fast Glasgow-Aberdeen trains don't stop there now so they'd have to be very well connected to get the HSTs to.

Well, 5 direct weekday services from Dunblane to Aberdeen

06:32 - 2h15m
08:15 - 2h02m
18:23 - 2h13m
19:14 - 2h08m
21:15 - 2h07m


Looking at services from Stirling to Aberdeen, there doesn't seem to be a considerable time premium that would make these 5 services "slow" trains.

Oddly enough the 17:41 service (or previous timetable equivalent) from Glasgow Queen Street to Dunblane, Arr 18:22 is very popular with Scotrail and Network Rail staff.

 

[najaB]

Looking at services from Stirling to Aberdeen, there doesn't seem to be a considerable time premium that would make these 5 services "slow" trains.

I agree the timing isn't massively different, but those trains do make a few additional calls.

 

[clc]

A report by Glasgow City Council bemoaning the fact that the Route Study makes no specific provision for the tram train link to Glasgow Airport:

https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/councillorsandcommittees/viewSelectedDocument.asp?c=P62AFQDNT1ZLDXDXZ3

 

[sng7]

As far as i can remember (Having looked over it when it came out) the study only seemed to mention projects that where solely network rails responsibility and didn't mention any plans that involved extensions etc only upgrades to current infrastructure.

 

[Altnabreac]

A report by Glasgow City Council bemoaning the fact that the Route Study makes no specific provision for the tram train link to Glasgow Airport:

https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/councillorsandcommittees/viewSelectedDocument.asp?c=P62AFQDNT1ZLDXDXZ3

Given that the airport access project in City Deal did not propose any funding mechanism for works on the existing network and declined to include any such costs in it's business case calculations there should be no surprise that Network Rail hasn't included it in "Options for Funders" as it's clear that Glasgow and Renfrewshire have no intention of funding the required works.

Someone needs to redo the airport access business cases taking into account the costs of upgrading Shields Junction and providing new platforms at Central.

Once that's done the Personal Rapid Transit option will have by far the best business case as we've known all along.

 

[Clansman]

View attachment 25427

For anyone who's interested in through running at platforms 5 and 6 at Perth, the canopy arrangement here indicates pretty conclusively that if they ever were continuous platforms they probably ceased to be in the nineteenth century.

The old north terminating platforms, presumably 8 and 9, are now the car park area beyond the clock, and in turn become the fuelling bay as you head further out.

I suppose that if they did away with platforms 3 and 4 then there's an opportunity to bring vehicles in from Glasgow Road and partially return the 1840s frontage to its original use. There's been a lot of talk in the last few years of moving the bus station to the existing front door area, so I can just about see how it could all work.

£££ - to quote posts upthread - to do this and make the enormous rickety old place a credit to the city. Hilariously I spotted a plaque on part of it the other day declaring it the best restored station - in 1986!

I can confirm Platforms 5 and 6 used to be through. They only remnants of this is the fuel depot currently next to the road bridge leading into the car park, and this image taken in 1945 (I highlighted the platforms with the red arrow)

 

[Altnabreac]

I can confirm Platforms 5 and 6 used to be through. They only remnants of this is the fuel depot currently next to the road bridge leading into the car park, and this image taken in 1945 (I highlighted the platforms with the red arrow)

That doesn't necessarily show that they used to be through platforms just that there used to be 2 north facing bays (8 and 9) which everyone agrees.

The question is when (if ever) 8 and 9 ran through to 5 and 6.

 

[Clansman]

That doesn't necessarily show that they used to be through platforms just that there used to be 2 north facing bays (8 and 9) which everyone agrees.

The question is when (if ever) 8 and 9 ran through to 5 and 6.

Never knew about the North facing bays, learn something new everyday. Looks like there wasnt any through platforms there, only reason because the road bridge to the left of the bays in the photo, is the same road bridge which leads to the car park in the concorse. Unless there were through platforms before 1940s.

 

[Altnabreac]

Never knew about the North facing bays, learn something new everyday. Looks like there wasnt any through platforms there, only reason because the road bridge to the left of the bays in the photo, is the same road bridge which leads to the car park in the concorse. Unless there were through platforms before 1940s.

No worries. This is the 1935 picture I mentioned earlier in the thread that shows Platform 9, one of the north facing bays:

 

[Clansman]

No worries. This is the 1935 picture I mentioned earlier in the thread that shows Platform 9, one of the north facing bays:

Noticed the buffers at the end. Looks like also that the bays were probably where the car park is today, which would probably explain why that part of the building is unused. Don't think it was ever a through platform, at least there is no record of it in terms of photos or a remnant of a footbridge which would go from platform 5 to 7 in today's numbers.

 

[47271]

Yes, that view is exactly where the covered section of the back car park is at the moment. Other than the filling in of the bays and the replacement of trains by parked cars, everything I can see is totally recognisable to a regular user of Perth station today.

 

[clc]

See this March 2015 letter from ORR to Network Rail:


http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/17609/cp5-enhancements-delivery-plan-march-2015.pdf

So definitely nothing until July 2016 at the earliest.

If you want a clue as to what isn't going to be in it though you can look at the Scotland Route Study draft:


So we can assume Highland Main Line improvements will be going ahead, will deliver the capacity for hourly services and a 10 minute improvement but is not anticipated to include any of those interventions listed above that are options for CP6/7.

Some info on HML improvements has been given by Phil Verster to a Holyrood committee in March. Apparently there will be two interventions, at Aviemore and Pitlochry, not the locations that were in the original plan. He also said the Grip 3 report would be published at the end of April. I can't see it on the TS website so looks like it's overdue.

There's also discussion about Queen St redevelopment, future proofing Edinburgh South Sub electrification for tram-trains, Scotrail performance and various other issues.

See pages 19-20 Re HML: http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=10431&mode=pdf

 

[Mordac]

The final version (i.e., post consultation) is up here: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/long-term-planning-process/scotland-route-study/

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The final version (i.e., post consultation) is up here: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/long-term-planning-process/scotland-route-study/

Wow - page 36, 48,, 70, 75, 76 plenty of electrification - great news.

 

[68000]

Is the Cambuslang bypass option (page 45) looking at possible re-instatement of the Newton to Carmyle link?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Wow - page 36, 48,, 70, 75, 76 plenty of electrification - great news.

The only major change is Edinburgh to Dundee has moved back into contention for funding in CP6/CP7 but there's no guarantee it'll actually be funded, given the other works needing done first.

The Appendix still has electrification timescales as follows (there's other works which could impact on electrification, all of the following are specifically electrification or route clearance works).

Edinburgh to Dundee

• CP6 - Winchburgh Junction and Almond Junction grade separation, including electrification from Haymarket to Winchburough Junction
• CP8 - Electrification design in vicinity of Edinburgh Airport
• CP8 - Clear Forth Bridge for electrification
• CP8 - Clear North Queensferry Tunnel for electrification
• CP8 - Clear Inverkeithing Tunnels for electrification
• CP8 - Fife Bypass alongside M90 alignment
• CP8 - Strengthen Tay Bridge removing weight restrictions
• CP8 - Prepare Dock Street Tunnel, Dundee for electrification
• CP10 - Electrify Edinburgh Waverley to Dundee via Fife.

Glasgow to Dundee

• CP6 - Greenhill Upper grade seperation
• CP6 - Improve signalling headways between Dunblane and Perth
• CP6 - Clear Moncrieffe Tunnel for electrification + slab track + W12
• CP6 - Perth station remodelling
• CP6&CP7 - Dunblane to Perth and Perth to Dundee electrification

Edinburgh Suburban

• CP6 - Remodel Slateford Junction
• CP6 - Resignal and electrify the South Sub

Glasgow Central to Barrhead

• CP6 - Electrify East Kilbride Line (from Busby Jn)
• CP6 - Lengthen Barrhead Bay platform
• CP6 - Electrify Barrhead Line (from Muirhouse Jn to Busby Jn)
• CP6 - Electrify Barrhead Line (from Busby Jn)
• CP7 - Barrhead to Kilmarnock redoubling or signalling headway alterations

Dundee to Aberdeen

• CP8 - Electrify Dundee to Aberdeen

Perth to Dingwall

• CP10 - Electrify Perth to Inverness

Assorted others

• CP7 - Electrify Gartsherrie South Junction Loop
• CP6 - Electrify Glasgow North suburban - Cowlairs to Anniesland and Westerton

 

[SkinnyDave]

The only major change is Edinburgh to Dundee has moved back into contention for funding in CP6/CP7 but there's no guarantee it'll actually be funded, given the other works needing done first.

The Appendix still has electrification timescales as follows (there's other works which could impact on electrification, all of the following are specifically electrification or route clearance works).

Edinburgh to Dundee

• CP6 - Winchburgh Junction and Almond Junction grade separation, including electrification from Haymarket to Winchburough Junction
• CP8 - Electrification design in vicinity of Edinburgh Airport
• CP8 - Clear Forth Bridge for electrification
• CP8 - Clear North Queensferry Tunnel for electrification
• CP8 - Clear Inverkeithing Tunnels for electrification
• CP8 - Fife Bypass alongside M90 alignment
• CP8 - Strengthen Tay Bridge removing weight restrictions
• CP8 - Prepare Dock Street Tunnel, Dundee for electrification
• CP10 - Electrify Edinburgh Waverley to Dundee via Fife.

Glasgow to Dundee

• CP6 - Greenhill Upper grade seperation
• CP6 - Improve signalling headways between Dunblane and Perth
• CP6 - Clear Moncrieffe Tunnel for electrification + slab track + W12
• CP6 - Perth station remodelling
• CP6&CP7 - Dunblane to Perth and Perth to Dundee electrification

Edinburgh Suburban

• CP6 - Remodel Slateford Junction
• CP6 - Resignal and electrify the South Sub

Glasgow Central to Barrhead

• CP6 - Electrify East Kilbride Line (from Busby Jn)
• CP6 - Lengthen Barrhead Bay platform
• CP6 - Electrify Barrhead Line (from Muirhouse Jn to Busby Jn)
• CP6 - Electrify Barrhead Line (from Busby Jn)
• CP7 - Barrhead to Kilmarnock redoubling or signalling headway alterations

Dundee to Aberdeen

• CP8 - Electrify Dundee to Aberdeen

Perth to Dingwall

• CP10 - Electrify Perth to Inverness

Assorted others

• CP7 - Electrify Gartsherrie South Junction Loop
• CP6 - Electrify Glasgow North suburban - Cowlairs to Anniesland and Westerton

Could I ask what grade separating Greenhill junction would entail?

 

[Mordac]

Edinburgh to Dundee

• CP6 - Winchburgh Junction and Almond Junction grade separation, including electrification from Haymarket to Winchburough Junction
• CP8 - Electrification design in vicinity of Edinburgh Airport
• CP8 - Clear Forth Bridge for electrification
• CP8 - Clear North Queensferry Tunnel for electrification
• CP8 - Clear Inverkeithing Tunnels for electrification
• CP8 - Fife Bypass alongside M90 alignment
• CP8 - Strengthen Tay Bridge removing weight restrictions
• CP8 - Prepare Dock Street Tunnel, Dundee for electrification
• CP10 - Electrify Edinburgh Waverley to Dundee via Fife.

Isn't the bolded bit part of EGIP?

 

[najaB]

Isn't the bolded bit part of EGIP?

Via the other route, yes. Not via Dalmeny which is what I'm assuming this is referring to.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perth to Dingwall

• CP10 - Electrify Perth to Inverness

I'm surprised that none of the pre-work seems to have been done in earlier CP's as there are probably opportunities for journey time improvements pre-electrification.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Could I ask what grade separating Greenhill junction would entail?

The network change documentation from the last time it was planned (before it was dropped from EGIP) stated the following.

Provision of a new Grade Separated Junction at Greenhill Upper by 2015Q4 to increase the main line and branch capacity capabilities through the elimination of current junction conflicts. The E&G Up and Down lines will be re-aligned to the north of their current alignment. The new Up Carmuirs line will diverge from the E&G to the west of the existing Greenhill Upper junction location.

The new Down Carmuirs line will join the Down E&G line closer to the existing junction location. 100 mph line speeds will be provided on all routes. A new chord line will also be provided between the new Down grade separated alignment from Greenhill Lower onto the Up Scottish Central line.

This will provide equivalent functionality to the grade separation of Greenhill Lower Jcn. A connection will also be provided between this chord line and the Down E&G line to provide a looping facility.

I can't guarantee other changes to the scheme won't have resulted in some or all of the above becoming out of date and wrong.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

CP10 - Electrify Edinburgh Waverley to Dundee via Fife.
CP8 - Electrify Dundee to Aberdeen
CP10 - Electrify Perth to Inverness

CP8 = 2029-2034
CP10 =2039-2044

So nearly 30 years off - if alive I will be 89 by then - unlikely to see in my lifetime then. Oh well, at least it is nice and steady progress.

 

[najaB]

CP8 = 2029-2034
CP10 =2039-2044

So nearly 30 years off - if alive I will be 89 by then - unlikely to see in my lifetime then. Oh well, at least it is nice and steady progress.

I live in hope that these dates are worst case and can be significantly improved, if only because NR will continuously be getting better at delivering electrification projects through continuous delivery of electrification projects.