Scotland not keen on GBR

[Dr Hoo]

Have the individual TOCs absorbed into GBR all been amalgamated into one party in ORCATS yet? It would mean an awful lot less "clearing".

This sort of comment always misses the point that ORCATS was developed by BR for 'Allocation of Tickets to Services' well before privatisation.

Otherwise you just end up with GBR sitting in front of a multi-billion-£££ cash 'lake' without the faintest idea of how much was earned by the ECML, Whitby branch, Island Line, Hallam Line, etc.

 

[och aye]

Perhaps a compromise could be reached.

 

[PG]

Perhaps a compromise could be reached.

View attachment 111699

For a brief moment I read that as ScotchRail

 

[mmh]

Other wise you just end up with GBR sitting in front of a multi-billion-£££ cash 'lake' without the faintest idea of how much was earned by the ECML, Whitby branch, Island Line, Hallam Line, etc.

They know what tickets have been sold, and always have done. That won't be changing.

 

[Dr Hoo]

They know what tickets have been sold, and always have done. That won't be changing.

I am well aware of that. But that is not the same as having a good idea of which services are being used (by route, time of day and so on). As a former BR Service Group Manager I can assure you that the extra detail provided by ORCATS was always extremely valuable. Obviously it is complemented by other revenue management and business planning tools as it was by things like CAPRI and MOIRA in BR days.

 

[matchmaker]

I don't think it was intended to be an exhaustive list? Otherwise Lockerbie, Dunbar, Motherwell etc etc needed to be mentioned, and also even Bridge of Allan, Dunkeld & Birnam and Carrbridge with their weekly stops.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2022 ==


What does Dumfries have to do with anything? It was never served by Northern.

Stirling is however an LNER terminus. The others are not.

 

[Horizon22]

If they're "not keen", then why did so many Scottish cities want to become the HQ?! - https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2022/03/42-towns-and-cities-bid-to-host-great-british-railways-hq.html

The list of submissions are Barrow in Furness, Birmingham, Bishops Stortford, Bolton, Camborne, Carlisle, Carnforth, Coventry, Crewe, Darlington, Derby, Didcot, Doncaster, Dundee, Durham, Eastleigh, Edinburgh ,Fife, Gloucester, Grantham, Greater Manchester, Heywood, Hull, Liverpool, Milton Keynes, Motherwell, Newcastle, Northampton, Nuneaton, Perth, Peterborough, Preston (Lancs), Southampton, Stockton-on-Tees, Swindon, Tamworth, Tonbridge, Wakefield, Wellingborough, West of England combined authority (including Bristol and Bath), Worcester, York

 

[ShadowKnight]

The Scottish government isn't keen. Local towns and cities on the other hand evidently are

 

[Falcon1200]

I would be most surprised if a Scottish location is chosen for GBR's HQ, as apart from being remote from the majority of UK rail operations, what would happen in the event of Scottish independence - The whole thing would surely have to be relocated !

 

[Horizon22]

I would be most surprised if a Scottish location is chosen for GBR's HQ, as apart from being remote from the majority of UK rail operations, what would happen in the event of Scottish independence - The whole thing would surely have to be relocated !

Yes I find it quite unlikely, just found it interesting that Sturgeon was apparently 'speaking for Scotland' when evidently a fair few cities and towns have no doubt hyped up their credentials and lauded praise on GBR in their bids. I am of course evidently aware of the differences between national governments and local government priorities and desires, it just amused me a little.

 

[adrock1976]

If they're "not keen", then why did so many Scottish cities want to become the HQ?! - https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2022/03/42-towns-and-cities-bid-to-host-great-british-railways-hq.html

Whoever the author was, they have made an error regarding geography of one of the places in Scotland.

Fife is not a town or city, but a former Kingdom of which Dunfermline once served as the capital of the whole of Scotland, most towns having a KY postcode (centred around Kirkcaldy - Newport on Tay has a DD postcode centred around Dundee). Fife Regional Council and the present day Fife Council has its administrative headquarters in the New Town of Glenrothes (established 1948 - the second in Scotland after East Kilbride in 1947, and before Cumbernauld in 1955).

With sloppiness in standards of journalism when it comes to matters relating to Scotland, I can understand that it is no wonder that locals get ratty especially if the reporter has not bothered to take the time or effort to read up on some brief background info.

 

[Horizon22]

Whoever the author was, they have made an error regarding geography of one of the places in Scotland.

Fife is not a town or city, but a former Kingdom of which Dunfermline once served as the capital of the whole of Scotland, most towns having a KY postcode (centred around Kirkcaldy - Newport on Tay has a DD postcode centred around Dundee). Fife Regional Council and the present day Fife Council has its administrative headquarters in the New Town of Glenrothes (established 1948 - the second in Scotland after East Kilbride in 1947, and before Cumbernauld in 1955).

With sloppiness in standards of journalism when it comes to matters relating to Scotland, I can understand that it is no wonder that locals get ratty especially if the reporter has not bothered to take the time or effort to read up on some brief background info.

I think Fife is a generalised bid, like West of England.

 

[Carlisle]

, what would happen in the event of Scottish independence

Nobody knows unless another referendum’s agreed, so unlikely to affect any location decision given any coloured UK government’s desire to preserve the Union unless a 2nd votes lost .

 

[Wolfie]

Sadly I think that the Telegraph will always make time to have a go at the Scottish or Welsh governments.

Indeed, how dare they have the temerity to not vote for Johnson's acolytes.....

 

[snowball]

I think Fife is a generalised bid, like West of England.

Is there going to be a bid from Raith?

 

[matchmaker]

Is there going to be a bid from Raith?

They'll be dancing in the streets of Raith if that bid succeeds!

 

[thedbdiboy]

This sort of comment always misses the point that ORCATS was developed by BR for 'Allocation of Tickets to Services' well before privatisation.

Otherwise you just end up with GBR sitting in front of a multi-billion-£££ cash 'lake' without the faintest idea of how much was earned by the ECML, Whitby branch, Island Line, Hallam Line, etc.

I am well aware of that. But that is not the same as having a good idea of which services are being used (by route, time of day and so on). As a former BR Service Group Manager I can assure you that the extra detail provided by ORCATS was always extremely valuable. Obviously it is complemented by other revenue management and business planning tools as it was by things like CAPRI and MOIRA in BR days.

One of the opportunities within GBR is to develop a much more sophisticated and up to date management information process. ORCATS was great in its time but is unbelievably crude nowadays in a world with Google Analytics, Amazon Web Services etc. Unfortunately, because franchise bids were all predicated on it, there has been no interest in pursuing the 'truth' because of the financial risk to some if it deviated from the ORCATS 'truth'. That issue is now dead, so at last we can focus on better data and insight without some TOC objecting because they will lose money.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

There are international trains all over Europe and were even before the EU - it's not hard and it's not an issue.

Wouldn't quite be that optimistic, there are plenty of examples where international trains (both local and longer-distance ones) actually don't work well at all. They only do when the respective governments and rail companies involved take the effort and work together in good faith.

 

[Dr Hoo]

One of the opportunities within GBR is to develop a much more sophisticated and up to date management information process. ORCATS was great in its time but is unbelievably crude nowadays in a world with Google Analytics, Amazon Web Services etc. Unfortunately, because franchise bids were all predicated on it, there has been no interest in pursuing the 'truth' because of the financial risk to some if it deviated from the ORCATS 'truth'. That issue is now dead, so at last we can focus on better data and insight without some TOC objecting because they will lose money.

I entirely agree that, 30 years on, ORCATS can no doubt be superseded by even more sophisticated revenue analysis software and so on within GBR.

However, as with 'fares simplification', just don't expect it to be quick, cheaper, involve fewer staff, etc. Any sustainable business in a competitive environment has to understand where its revenue is being earned (and not earned).

 

[MattRat]

One of the opportunities within GBR is to develop a much more sophisticated and up to date management information process. ORCATS was great in its time but is unbelievably crude nowadays in a world with Google Analytics, Amazon Web Services etc. Unfortunately, because franchise bids were all predicated on it, there has been no interest in pursuing the 'truth' because of the financial risk to some if it deviated from the ORCATS 'truth'. That issue is now dead, so at last we can focus on better data and insight without some TOC objecting because they will lose money.

I entirely agree that, 30 years on, ORCATS can no doubt be superseded by even more sophisticated revenue analysis software and so on within GBR.

However, as with 'fares simplification', just don't expect it to be quick, cheaper, involve fewer staff, etc. Any sustainable business in a competitive environment has to understand where its revenue is being earned (and not earned).

I worry that in an effort to create something advanced, we'll end up with something that doesn't work. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[thedbdiboy]

I worry that in an effort to create something advanced, we'll end up with something that doesn't work. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

It doesn't have to be advanced, just equivalent to the standard of management information that is routinely expected in a transport/logistics environment in 2022

 

[marks87]

Nobody knows unless another referendum’s agreed, so unlikely to affect any location decision given any coloured UK government’s desire to preserve the Union unless a 2nd votes lost .

Quite, and I reckon that increases the chance of the HQ ending up in Scotland. Commitment to the strength of the Union or such like.

 

[Chris Hamilton]

Also, better tell the Foreign Office that their massive office at East Kilbride may be moving!

There are loads of UK Government offices in Scotland, all of which would require moving in the event of independence, and some of them are relatively new. It’s frankly a ridiculous argument against a Scottish GBR HQ.

Even so, we all know it will be a northern English city. Got to keep the blue wall sweet.

 

[Berliner]

I am not sure why GBR would be based in Scotland when the overwhelming majority of its network, responsibilities, jurisdiction, and services are in England. It would be like putting Scotrail HQ in Carlisle. In any event, I also highly doubt putting the head office of what, in all honesty, should be called Rail England (or something to that effect) is going to change hearts or minds on either side of the independence debate.

 

[Starmill]

Also, better tell the Foreign Office that their massive office at East Kilbride may be moving!

There are loads of UK Government offices in Scotland, all of which would require moving in the event of independence, and some of them are relatively new. It’s frankly a ridiculous argument against a Scottish GBR HQ.

Even so, we all know it will be a northern English city. Got to keep the blue wall sweet.

Foreign policy isn't devolved to Scotland though. Passenger rail services however is indeed a devolved policy area.

 

[Mag_seven]

This thread has run its course.

For discussion as to where you think the new GBR HQ should be please use this thread:

GBR HQ or Regional HQ

Local councillors in Grantham suggested a bid for the HQ, "to be placed on land adjacent to the railway station". Not singling out Grantham but I don't see a particular need for the HQ to be near a railway station. It's not like any of their 'outputs' are going to be popped on a train or the...

www.railforums.co.uk

thanks