Scarborough; TPEx reliability

[daikilo]

If you have a chance to listen to the Northern and NR evidence to the Commons Transport Committee on Youtube (which I would link if I could find it) it is lear that this last timetable change did not go to plan and was very late. In theory, what NR delivered they signed off to. Northern then found they could not resource what they were given, but I have heard nothing about how TPE reacted. What I suspect is that the NR schedule works in a perfect world but has insufficient margins in critical areas, and the "signallers" have yet to find the optimum work-arounds.

I am concerned about what will happen when Northern finds they can resource the original timetable.

I think that the few platforms and the western station throat at Victoria are real issues as probably is the bottleneck through Oxford Road etc.

 

[mike57]

Given that TPE cannot deliver a service to Scarborough under the current conditions what will happen when

1. Liverpool reopens
2. Summer holidays start in earnest
3. Northern start running more of their services

 

[markindurham]

It's mostly about choke points, I suggest. Manchester - Ordsall Chord good in theory, avoiding, or at least reducing, conflicting traffic across the Piccadilly throat, BUT it's only 2 tracks between Oxford Road and Piccadilly, and P13/14 at Piccadilly are just not adequate for the volume of traffic using it. Stalybridge-Huddersfield is only 2 tracks, with a mix of fasts & stoppers. Leeds area - another place where there is just too much traffic for the infrastructure.

Then you also have freights being squeezed into the mix...

Next, you have the madness of extremely tight turnrounds at the likes of Scarborough, and if you depart late, you miss your slot at one or more of the above choke points. That's compounded by the situation at Malton, where there is only one platform, and the eastbound & westbound services are timetabled to be within only a few minutes of each other.

Whoever designed the new timetable just didn't make adequate provision for delay margins, so once you're late, it's extremely unlikely that you can make it back up, particularly between Manchester and Leeds

 

[scarby]

Whoever designed the new timetable just didn't make adequate provision for delay margins, so once you're late, it's extremely unlikely that you can make it back up, particularly between Manchester and Leeds

Anyone who uses the York-Scarborough service knows that there are often slight issues at York, either with platform 5 not being clear, or having to wait for a southbound mainline service before crossing on to the Scarborough branch. Once delayed, there could be a further setback at Malton.

It therefore wasn't unusual for services to arrive into Scarborough 10+ late, a minor inconvenience at the most, and even 15 late the train could be cleaned and turned around to depart on time.

Now that isn't possible with just an 11 minute turnaround - did the people devising the timetable think those historically proven delays would just vanish?

 

[nr758123]

Well, the locals of said lines moaned and whinged about Northern at all the public meetings and actively wanted TPE to rule the roost.

The writing was on the wall, and repeated by anyone who signed the route between vic and hud that it would be chaos.

Tpe's bluff has been called. For years they blamed Northern - yet when in sole possession of the line they are being exposed.

I wouldn’t put it in those terms.

There were many aspects of the timetable change that passengers were justifiably unhappy about, and Northern’s performance had been dire for several months prior to the timetable change. If you want to dismiss that as “moaning and whinging” then that’s up to you.

TPE were given the benefit of the doubt on the basis that they couldn’t possibly be worse than Northern, could they?

Now that additional information has come to light (celebration, brewery, TPE, form these words into a well-known phrase) and we get to experience the utter cluelessness of TPE on a daily basis, we're allowed to change our minds.

 

[Eccles1983]

It was absolute moaning and whinging. The northern service was not brilliant but workable, if not short formed a fair bit.

The local user groups and residents got ideas of 6 car trains, absolutely ignoring the elephant in the room that was going to be the loss of services between stations. It was as clear as day, but now they are claiming foul.

I'm sorry but most of the time its better the devil you know.

 

[Steve Bray]

Thanks to those who gave advice on this forum yesterday about my dilemma of train v bus from Scarborough to York. On this occasion, I have more confidence to take the bus

 

[bramling]

Anyone who uses the York-Scarborough service knows that there are often slight issues at York, either with platform 5 not being clear, or having to wait for a southbound mainline service before crossing on to the Scarborough branch. Once delayed, there could be a further setback at Malton.

It therefore wasn't unusual for services to arrive into Scarborough 10+ late, a minor inconvenience at the most, and even 15 late the train could be cleaned and turned around to depart on time.

Now that isn't possible with just an 11 minute turnaround - did the people devising the timetable think those historically proven delays would just vanish?

Presumably the solution would be to have an extra unit so that there can be 1hr 11min turnarounds instead of 11 minutes. No doubt things aren’t that simple as presumably an extra unit may not be available, and of course the driver diagrams would need adjustment as well. It does seem remiss that this risk wasn’t identified beforehand, but maybe it was and they couldn’t or wouldn’t do anything about it?

 

[Ploughman]

Is there any scope for going for 2 TPH between York and Scarborough?
One unit maybe just doing a shuttle York - Scarborough.
A 30 minute service has been mentioned in the past.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Is there any scope for going for 2 TPH between York and Scarborough?
One unit maybe just doing a shuttle York - Scarborough.
A 30 minute service has been mentioned in the past.

Northern are introducing a shuttle before 2020.

 

[Craigster90]

In regards to a post earlier up the forum, Scarborough is in the recent TPE TV advert, seems silly if they do want to kill off their Scarborough services with what there doing as there bloody advertising them on the telly

 

[B&I]

Not just Scarborough. Since TPE took over the service at Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden & Salithwaite from the timetable change, cancellations have been routine, and over the past six weeks there have been just two days without cancellations affecting any or all of the above stations. We, too, have a service which is no better than hourly.

Slaithwaite and Mossley are now on the Hull to Stalybridge service. I can't call it a Hull to Manchester service because it often only makes it as far as Stalybridge before being turned back.

With a combination of cancellations and Stalybridge turnbacks, it's been routine for Manchester to Mossley and Slaithwaite to have two hour gaps in the service, often a three hour gap. Today, apparently, they have surpassed themselves and there has been a four hour gap.

TPE management were quite unequivocal, in public meetings, that the new timetable would be more resilient than the old, and that mitigating disruption would be easier. It's not worked out that way, and TPE management have been silent.

Hard to escape the conclusion that TPE are only really interested in running four fast trains an hour between Manchester and York, and don't care about passengers at places like Middlesbrough, Scarborough, Slaithwaite & Mossley.

That's not entirely TPE's fault, as DfT is also obsessed with promoting travel between Manchester and Leeds, without actually improving capacity. There needs to be a complete rethink of rail in the north, and some proper investment, rather than a series of very skimpy sticking plasters

 

[Harpers Tate]

..... DfT is also obsessed with promoting travel between Manchester and Leeds, without actually improving capacity......

...and there are way too many in the industry that consider the only way to greater capacity is more trains on an already overcrowded route. They are already too frequent - that's a cause of these issues.

A far more practical answer is to run fewer trains (eg 3x per hour TPEs - frequency enough for a turn up and go usage pattern - absolutely does not need to be any greater) but of sufficient size to properly cater for the demand. Does not require major infrastructre work; does not cause "traffic jams" and delays, leaves flexibility in paths in place. etc. Oh, and saves crews, too.

 

[theageofthetra]

Have been up in Scarborough for the cricket with Surrey. Was shocked at how bad the service has deteriorated since I was last up there two years ago. At least with the early finish today I made an on time earlier train. Had I not been on an early shift tmmr I'd have gone back on the 17.15 steam service!

Heard a lot of tales from Yorks fans how bad it was getting back on Tues- two cxl services after close of play.

 

[Merseysider]

0817, 0919, 1019, 1519 and 1619 Manchester Airport to Newcastle all starting from Manchester today.

Yesterday, the 0719, 1019, 1419, 1519* got turned around at Darlo, and the 1219, 1319, 1519*, 1719 were of course all cancelled from the Airport.

Day before that, 0619 turned at York, 0719 actually ran, 0819 late, 0919 cancelled, 1019 cancelled, 1119 and 1219 turned at Darlo, 1319, 1419, 1519, 1619 cancelled, 1719 late, etc.

National Express must be making a fortune.

*Double points!

 

[AndrewE]

Northern are introducing a shuttle before 2020.

is that 2020 tonight, or the year 2020? I have a vague memory that we were promised (maybe was it a "franchise requirement") loco-hauled queue-busting expresses to fill in the gap until the new DMUs (or was it EMUs)? appeared.... So I shall not hold my breath - or expect "them" to actually deliver anything they promise now to get the enraged punters off their backs.

 

[blackfive460]

Returning to Monday's fiasco, did anyone else notice that behind the two trains terminated at Malton (1E43 & 1E45) came 5Z33, an ECS move from Carnforth to Scarborough for a charter to Windsor the following day.
Apparently WCRC contacted TPE control and offered to stop the ECS at Malton, pick up the many passengers and take them to Scarborough.
TPE control said no...

 

[theageofthetra]

Returning to Monday's fiasco, did anyone else notice that behind the two trains terminated at Malton (1E43 & 1E45) came 5Z33, an ECS move from Carnforth to Scarborough for a charter to Windsor the following day.
Apparently WCRC contacted TPE control and offered to stop the ECS at Malton, pick up the many passengers and take them to Scarborough.
TPE control said no...

If that is true that says everything about the mindset of modern railway management.

 

[daikilo]

If that is true that says everything about the mindset of modern railway management.

Had it been a Northern 150, the TPE response may have been different! WCRC is not a conventional TOC.

 

[nr758123]

That's not entirely TPE's fault, as DfT is also obsessed with promoting travel between Manchester and Leeds, without actually improving capacity. There needs to be a complete rethink of rail in the north, and some proper investment, rather than a series of very skimpy sticking plasters

Quite so. Fault is shared out quite widely, from the DfT which pushed this silly obsession with running fast but short trains across the Pennines and who insisted on bringing it in before (or without?) providing the infrastructure to make it practicable and resilient, from those regional bodies who went along with this gimmick, to TPE who are making it worse by not even trying to mitigate disruption to those places which only have an hourly service.

Of course trying to find out who actually makes decisions within the railway industry is like knitting fog, as the Transport Select Committee discovered last week, so fault may not be entirely where it appears to be.

 

[blackfive460]

If that is true that says everything about the mindset of modern railway management.

I think it says more about the unwillingness of staff to make a decision that they may have to take responsibility for later should anything go wrong.
If in any doubt, say no...

 

[3270]

A couple of Thursday's Airport - Newcastle services were run non-stop from York to Newcastle to regain time rather than turning them round at Darlington.
1P15 0719 ManAir-Newc http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y72615/2018/06/28/advanced
1P17 0847 ManVic-Newc http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y72629/2018/06/28/advanced

Passengers detrained at York for Darlington and Durham were able to catch the following 9Exx Man Vic - Newcastle services which were only a few minutes behind.
At least this 'run fast' solution allowed the subsequent southbound airport trains to start from Newcastle and not leave anyone behind.

On the subject of finding spare units the Class 185 refurb project should be finished in the next few weeks. They seem to be doing 2 units at a time now as far as I can tell and there are only a handful left to do.

 

[mike57]

Oh well TPE have won, spent yesterday evening looking at options for a second car for us, it will cost more overall, but I'm hourly paid and the loss and delay isn't sustainable I will loose work. I have already noticed significantly reduced loadings on peak time trains to and from Scarborough.

 

[B&I]

Oh well TPE have won, spent yesterday evening looking at options for a second car for us, it will cost more overall, but I'm hourly paid and the loss and delay isn't sustainable I will loose work. I have already noticed significantly reduced loadings on peak time trains to and from Scarborough.

One of the disastrous side effects of privatisation is the lack of sufficient incentive to TOCs to maintain and increase passenger numbers. But then, when government isn't really fussed about those issues either, this is unsurprising

 

[Moonshot]

One of the disastrous side effects of privatisation is the lack of sufficient incentive to TOCs to maintain and increase passenger numbers. But then, when government isn't really fussed about those issues either, this is unsurprising

The incentive is profit , and return to shareholders. That's how it works in the private sector.

 

[mpthomson]

One of the disastrous side effects of privatisation is the lack of sufficient incentive to TOCs to maintain and increase passenger numbers. But then, when government isn't really fussed about those issues either, this is unsurprising

You mean apart from the incentive to raise passenger numbers as this raises revenue, increasing profits while still paying back the hefty premiums?

That's all the franchises really exist to do.

 

[nr758123]

One of the disastrous side effects of privatisation is the lack of sufficient incentive to TOCs to maintain and increase passenger numbers. But then, when government isn't really fussed about those issues either, this is unsurprising

There's something in the franchise documentation for Transpennine about promoting modal shift being one of the franchise objectives. Well they're certainly achieving that.

 

[Moonshot]

There's something in the franchise documentation for Transpennine about promoting modal shift being one of the franchise objectives. Well they're certainly achieving that.

Judging by the pax numbers I see everyday on TPE services, I think there is a general misunderstanding that passenger numbers have collapsed. I can absolutely guarantee you they haven't

 

[mike57]

Judging by the pax numbers I see everyday on TPE services, I think there is a general misunderstanding that passenger numbers have collapsed. I can absolutely guarantee you they haven't

I think it depend on the service, I regularly use the 17:31 Man to Scarborough service, this comes from Liverpool or currently starts at Victoria, typically it is 50-75% full, however trains coming through Pic. are full to bursting. A lot of passengers need to travel to/from Man Pic. The busiest part of the 17:31 ex Man is actually Leeds to Scarborough.

Equally the 6.41 departure from Scarborough is much lighter loaded between Scarborough and York than either the old 6.30 or 7.00 departures, and this is in spite of it being 45 mins after first departure and an hour to the next one.

For all the talk before the change the current service is not delivering what passengers want (and actually had under the old timetable)

They don't want the stopping non express service to Hull. They want to travel to Man Pic not Victoria, and passengers from the Birchwood/Warrington/Liverpool south parkway areas don't want two changes to Scarborough. Several people I know used to travel from Malton to Warrington regularly (Weekly or more often) and have given up since the change and now use their car. I cannot imagine Newton Le willows and Lee Green generating the same number of journeys.

 

[Moonshot]

I think it depend on the service, I regularly use the 17:31 Man to Scarborough service, this comes from Liverpool or currently starts at Victoria, typically it is 50-75% full, however trains coming through Pic. are full to bursting. A lot of passengers need to travel to/from Man Pic. The busiest part of the 17:31 ex Man is actually Leeds to Scarborough.

Equally the 6.41 departure from Scarborough is much lighter loaded between Scarborough and York than either the old 6.30 or 7.00 departures, and this is in spite of it being 45 mins after first departure and an hour to the next one.

For all the talk before the change the current service is not delivering what passengers want (and actually had under the old timetable)

They don't want the stopping non express service to Hull. They want to travel to Man Pic not Victoria, and passengers from the Birchwood/Warrington/Liverpool south parkway areas don't want two changes to Scarborough. Several people I know used to travel from Malton to Warrington regularly (Weekly or more often) and have given up since the change and now use their car. I cannot imagine Newton Le willows and Lee Green generating the same number of journeys.

No one on here will know the exact numbers etc , so it's all hypothesis.