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Salisbury to exeter redoubling

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tbtc

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Current timetables are no guide to future timetables. Train frequency can go down as well as up... :D

True, something I've argued in other threads.

Current service patterns are fine for working out how many DMUs may be "saved" by electrification, but there's no guarantee that they will be maintained in the future (e.g. Barrow in Furness may lose its direct Manchester service when the Preston - Manchester line is electrified).

As for the Salisbury - Exeter line, I suppose this is part of a decision about what the "main" route will be from London to Devon/ Cornwall. Will the plan be for more services running via Bristol? Or (with that moving to IEP) will the Salisbury route take more of the strain (in which case redoubling is more necessary)...
 
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Zoe

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The current service level of 1 tph to Swansea though was why they decided to end the wires at Cardiff so it would seem that the current service is taken into account when they make these decisions.
 
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Schnellzug

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How are you getting those? Weymouth via a reversal at Yeovil Pen Mill I could just about picture but to get Exeter to Bournemouth you'd need to reverse in Southampton...

Not necessarily, not if it goes along with my favourite "if only" project, the reconstruction of the Somerset & Dorset...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What would be wrong with that? Trains reverse at lots of stations...Swansea, Reading, Exeter St Davids for starters. I am only stating the potential that a dual track line would have. At the moment I agree that the main benefits would be shorter journey times, better flexibilty for services, and reduced delays.

It may even give FGW some competition and maybe get them to start providing a decent service and reduce their extortionate fares.

On a marginally more serious note, a (say) Bournemouth-Exeter service, reversing at Weymouth and Yeovil P.M., using 159s, I think would be quite a useful idea.
I wouldn't hold my breath about hoping that SWT might provide competition for anyone on the subject of fares, though ....
 

swt_passenger

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I wouldn't hold my breath about hoping that SWT might provide competition for anyone on the subject of fares, though ....

I thought they already do provide competition to FGW for journeys such as Exeter and Bristol to London, because they aren't the main operator for those flows.
 

lancastrian

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Maybe some dynamic loops would be a more affordable solution, hopefully delivering a good portion of the benefits?


Well that would be a good start, as long as they think well ahead. The recent long loop at Axminster was a great thing, but with a bit of forsight, it should have been extended as far as Chard Junction, so that this station could have been reopened as a parkway for chard.
 

swt_passenger

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Well that would be a good start, as long as they think well ahead. The recent long loop at Axminster was a great thing, but with a bit of forsight, it should have been extended as far as Chard Junction, so that this station could have been reopened as a parkway for chard.

At the risk of repeating something that's come up a few times before here, various local authority studies had shown it wasn't needed, and the land for a decent car park has been sold off a couple of years ago by BRB(R) anyway, following all the usual ORR formalities...
 

damo2804

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If complete redoubling was not practical at the moment then I agree dynamic loops would be the next best thing especially with regards to the line being used for frieght and diversion.

IMO 3 to 5 mile Dynamic loops at Crewkerne and Cranbrook would be needed to break up the 17 and 14 mile long sections of single track along with the conversion of the exisiting loops at Tisbury and Honiton along the same lines. The extension of the down line at Templecombe to pass through the stations disused platfom and maybe connect with the loop at Gillingham could also be a possibilty.

As a side note AWS magnets have been installed at Crewkerne so it is about to become a block post again for the 1st time since the 1960's.
 

trc666

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Tisbury, Gillingham, Axminster and Honiton loops are bi-di on both sides which is useful, but in my opinion I think the line should be doubled at least from Wilton Junction to Tisbury or Gillingham so at least trains could wait in platforms rather than outside the station as is the case at Tisbury.
 

tbtc

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The current service level of 1 tph to Swansea though was why they decided to end the wires at Cardiff so it would seem that the current service is taken into account when they make these decisions.

I wonder whether the idea to stop the wires at Cardiff was a political one, as this then encourages the WAG to stump up the cash from their own budget...
 

anthony263

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I wonder whether the idea to stop the wires at Cardiff was a political one, as this then encourages the WAG to stump up the cash from their own budget...

I suspect the money for wiring to Swansea will be found, particulary since network rail have suggested wiring Swansea - Cardiff as a trial for the factory trains.

Personally i also think the severn tunnel diversionary route should be electrified that also means that swansea would get a 2nd electric service per hour. I also have also read that FGW have suggested running a local emu service between Bristol TM & Cardiff which could be run to Swansea.

KI know FGW would need more emu's well my idea is to order brand new class 378 style emu's for northern instead of them getting the class 319's which would all go to FGW.



There is an article in the latest issue of rail about a new line between Exeter & Plymouth which avoids the sea wall at Dawlish in addition to the proposed route via Okehampton & Tavistock, so perhaps some trains could be terminated at Exeter depending on how much turn around they have.
 

Zoe

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There is an article in the latest issue of rail about a new line between Exeter & Plymouth which avoids the sea wall at Dawlish in addition to the proposed route via Okehampton & Tavistock, so perhaps some trains could be terminated at Exeter depending on how much turn around they have.
Why build a new route if you are going to start terminating some of the trains at Exeter? If the line to Exeter is electrified then I would have thought that any new line avoiding the sea wall would also have be electrified so would remove the need to terminate at Exeter. I would expect most trains would take this new route and the sea wall route would become a secondary line.
 

anthony263

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Why build a new route if you are going to start terminating some of the trains at Exeter? If the line to Exeter is electrified then I would have thought that any new line avoiding the sea wall would also have be electrified so would remove the need to terminate at Exeter. I would expect most trains would take this new route and the sea wall route would become a secondary line.

That one idea, terminate some trains at exeter til the dawlish avoiding route is built and wired then run the services can run to Plymouth & Penzance

hopefully the new route will have a much faster line speed and should reduce journey times between Exeter & Plymouth/penzance.

There should be some direct trains to/from London going via Dawlish these could be worked by a class 91 an dmk4 stock to exeter where a diesel can haul the train to Paignton.

Hopefully is the west of england line is electrified perhaps some of the London Waterloo - exeter trains can be run via dawlish to Plymouth, perhaps another idea is to extend some london waterloo - exeter service sthrough to Barnstaple etc when there are enough paths & stock
 

DavidBrown

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perhaps another idea is to extend some london waterloo - exeter service sthrough to Barnstaple etc when there are enough paths & stock

Whilst I would dearly love that to happen, there are no spare paths whatsoever (the infrastructure only allows 1tph), and there are lots of small, local stops that are most definately not suitable for a 6 car 159 heading to London Waterloo. You could have passing loops at Umberleigh and Copplestone (utilising the two parallel single lines from Coleford Jn to Crediton) to create a half hourly service, with FGW running local stoppers and SWT on a fast service only stopping at Crediton, Eggesford and Umberleigh, but even then the platforms at all three stations would need extending, and it all costs money which is something that nobody has at the moment.

With regards to bringing the wires to Exeter and having a new route to Newton Abbot/Plymouth, we really shouldn't be getting carried away here. It could be another 50 years before the wires even reach Exeter, and who knows what the situation with the Dawlish Sea Wall will be by then. There certaintly won't be any plans for improvements to Plymouth just because 100 people can't fly from the airport now.
 

TEW

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The only real doubling I can see necessary on the Waterloo line is the loop, I believe at Cranbrook which would allow the introduction of an hourly stopping service from Axminster to Exeter, allowing the London services to skip Pinhoe, Whimple and Feniton. I believe this is an ambition. Joining up Axminster loops and Chard Junction loop could be useful as well, and it's a relatively short distance to double.
 

Zoe

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With regards to bringing the wires to Exeter and having a new route to Newton Abbot/Plymouth, we really shouldn't be getting carried away here. It could be another 50 years before the wires even reach Exeter, and who knows what the situation with the Dawlish Sea Wall will be by then. There certaintly won't be any plans for improvements to Plymouth just because 100 people can't fly from the airport now.
That's all very well but the question here is if the railways can rely on oil for another 50 years. I'm not sure that will be an option.
 

Schnellzug

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That's all very well but the question here is if the railways can rely on oil for another 50 years. I'm not sure that will be an option.

There's plenty of other alternatives; I think I read once that an NCB survey in the 50's calculated that there was about 300 years' coal reserves left in the South Wales coalfields ....




:idea:

besides which, what I see happening is that the oil won't just stop overnight, but I expect it'd probably be rationed for essential users. Besides all which, It shouldn't be too difficult to adapt diesels to run on alternatives. i needn't worry. I expect they'll think of something.
:-?
 

Batman

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The only re-doubling that worthy of public money even in the long term has to be Kemble to Swindon. And possibly Keith to Elgin with the extension of the Forres passing loop into the station, but problems on that line can be sorted out through train lengthening and platform extensions.
 

Zoe

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besides which, what I see happening is that the oil won't just stop overnight, but I expect it'd probably be rationed for essential users. Besides all which, It shouldn't be too difficult to adapt diesels to run on alternatives. i needn't worry. I expect they'll think of something.
It's not just about peak oil, climate change also has to be taken into account.
 

Schnellzug

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It's not just about peak oil, climate change also has to be taken into account.
An interesting question arises from this, even if it may be getting a bit off topic; if there was large scale Electrification, where would the extra power come from? Since any construction of new nucular power plants would take a very long time, even if the Politicians were brave enough to brave the storm of fury that would arise, it would surely have to mean an increase in production from existing plants; and, even with conversions to gas, a lot of those are coal fired. And surely that would mean a net increase in carbon emissions, compared with the reduction in diesel emissions (which from rail, on a global scale, is negligible anyway).
 

Rhydgaled

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An interesting question arises from this, even if it may be getting a bit off topic; if there was large scale Electrification, where would the extra power come from? Since any construction of new nucular power plants would take a very long time, even if the Politicians were brave enough to brave the storm of fury that would arise, it would surely have to mean an increase in production from existing plants; and, even with conversions to gas, a lot of those are coal fired. And surely that would mean a net increase in carbon emissions, compared with the reduction in diesel emissions (which from rail, on a global scale, is negligible anyway).

Electrification of the whole network done very quickly now would certainly increase CO2 emmisions from electricity production. However, I doubt that increase would exceed the amount of CO2 emmited by the diesel trains that would have otherwise been running.

A better solution I think would be to just have the two electrification teams planned at the moment (the one in the north-west which seems to be a 25 route miles per year job and the GWML factory train which might manage 150-200 route miles a year) working at full tilt (perhaps with a 3rd rail team too) until the end of 2019 to allow all Pacers to be replaced by the Disability Deadline without ordering any new DMUs (except LM's 172 order) and to allow IEP to be an all-electric order (with bi-modes being provided by adding pantograph cars to 22x units). After that, the teams can slow down, the main object being replacing the 22xs and 180s around the time of their life-expiry date with pure-electric trains. A slower rate should hopefully allow most if not all the extra electricity required for the work after 2020 to be met by tidal stream power, the one renewable source (other than perhaps geothermal) which perhaps could generate constantly & reliably (unlike wind and solar which have off days and so cannot be trusted for more that about 15% of generation needs) and be completly hidden from view.
 
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DavidBrown

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As Rhydgaled briefly mentoins, the methods of generating power is by far the easiest problem to overcome. There are so many methods of generating green energy now, and whilst some remain controversial, you have to look at what is best power generation method for any given area.

What would be an interesting stat is just how much energy electrified lines use. How many homes, for example, could you power with what would be needed for 1 mile of electrified line?
 

damo2804

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To get this forum back on track here's some food for thought. Currently trains on this route stop at every station and also wait in loops for paths. If the line was double track then the journey timefor a non-stop service between Exeter and yeovil would be around 40 minutes (personal experience of non stop run behind a class 50 in 2008 and a couple evening HST diversions) and Yeovil to Salisbury would be around 35 minutes (Already timetabledwith the 00:09 service from Yeovil Junction to Salisbury). Thats a potential journey time from Exeter to Salisbury of around 1 hour 15 minutes!!! A saving of 30 minutes. Coupled with todays 1 hour 20 minute timing from Salisbury to Waterloo thats a total journey time of around 2 hours 35 minutes. An increase to 100mph from the current 85mph would bring that down even more.

To put it in perspective the average journey time from Exeter to Paddington is around 2 hours 20 minutes.
 

Zoe

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With the current structure of the railways though, the former LWSR will only ever be seen as a secondary line. There is simply no need to improve journey times on this route between Exeter and Salisbury as the primary route to London is via Taunton.
 

tbtc

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To get this forum back on track here's some food for thought. Currently trains on this route stop at every station and also wait in loops for paths. If the line was double track then the journey timefor a non-stop service between Exeter and yeovil would be around 40 minutes (personal experience of non stop run behind a class 50 in 2008 and a couple evening HST diversions) and Yeovil to Salisbury would be around 35 minutes (Already timetabledwith the 00:09 service from Yeovil Junction to Salisbury). Thats a potential journey time from Exeter to Salisbury of around 1 hour 15 minutes!!! A saving of 30 minutes. Coupled with todays 1 hour 20 minute timing from Salisbury to Waterloo thats a total journey time of around 2 hours 35 minutes. An increase to 100mph from the current 85mph would bring that down even more.

To put it in perspective the average journey time from Exeter to Paddington is around 2 hours 20 minutes.

An interesting way of looking at it.

If we had the kind of competition that we were "promised" in the 1990s then you'd expect the SWT franchise holder (currently Stagecoach) to press for these kind of improvements in the next franchise.

Improve the speed of the Yeovil line to make it competitive = bigger share of London - Exeter ORCATS money...
 

Zoe

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If we had the kind of competition that we were "promised" in the 1990s then you'd expect the SWT franchise holder (currently Stagecoach) to press for these kind of improvements in the next franchise.
There was actually talk of redoubling a large part if not all of the line between Salibsury and Exeter. This was one of quite a few big plans for the railway network talked about at the time but in late 2000 there was Hatfield and we all know the rest of the story.
 

damo2804

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I know what I'm about to mention is probably meaningless but here goes.

Just done a comparison of the 2008/2009 passengers figures that use the Cotswold line between Oxford and Worcester compared to the Salisbury to Exeter section of the Waterloo Exeter route (I have left out Salisbury, Exeter Central, Worcester and Oxford in these figures as these would be fairly ambiguous due to people changing trains at these stations etc) and was surprised at what I found. Total journeys that were started using stations on the Cotswold line came to approx 980,000 whereas approx 1.8 million journeys were started using stations on the Salisbury to Exeter route.

The section of the Cotswold line in question has 11 stations over approx 50 miles, 20 of which is now double track due to the 70 million quid recently invested. This compares with 10 stations in approx 80 miles on the Salisbury to Exeter section. of which 13 miles is double track with 4 passing loops.

In my naivety I am just curious as to how justification for redoubling 20 miles and investing 70 million quid can be found for the Cotswold line yet justification cannot be found for a line which has nearly double the people using it and is also an important diversionary route for the so called primary route in the west country, I know that the resignalling scheme that is currently in progress is going to allow for future redoubling so why not bite the bullet and do it now cuz as far as I can see (with my very untrained eyes) the argument that there is no demand for it clearly doesn't stand up.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Because, in a sense, this will upgrade the Cotswolds line to Salisbury-Exeter's level - i.e. Allowing for an hourly service. What is currently going on in Oxon is comparable to what happened in Axminster two years ago.
 

swt_passenger

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In my naivety I am just curious as to how justification for redoubling 20 miles and investing 70 million quid can be found for the Cotswold line yet justification cannot be found for a line which has nearly double the people using it and is also an important diversionary route for the so called primary route in the west country, I know that the resignalling scheme that is currently in progress is going to allow for future redoubling so why not bite the bullet and do it now cuz as far as I can see (with my very untrained eyes) the argument that there is no demand for it clearly doesn't stand up.

Although your comparison is interesting, the justification for redoubling the Cotswold line had nothing whatsoever to do with passenger numbers, I think that's the main difference. It was about NR removing a major source of delay to the whole of the services through Oxford, which apparently had knock on effects at Paddington in the peaks. Passenger benefits are a side effect.

The Exeter scheme on the other hand was a passenger orientated scheme, to provide an hourly service and cater for suppressed demand.
 

Chafford1

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To get this forum back on track here's some food for thought. Currently trains on this route stop at every station and also wait in loops for paths. If the line was double track then the journey timefor a non-stop service between Exeter and yeovil would be around 40 minutes (personal experience of non stop run behind a class 50 in 2008 and a couple evening HST diversions) and Yeovil to Salisbury would be around 35 minutes (Already timetabledwith the 00:09 service from Yeovil Junction to Salisbury). Thats a potential journey time from Exeter to Salisbury of around 1 hour 15 minutes!!! A saving of 30 minutes. Coupled with todays 1 hour 20 minute timing from Salisbury to Waterloo thats a total journey time of around 2 hours 35 minutes. An increase to 100mph from the current 85mph would bring that down even more.

To put it in perspective the average journey time from Exeter to Paddington is around 2 hours 20 minutes.

Apologies for restarting this thread late in the day, but an interesting topic and bit of time on my hands after Xmas, so here goes!

Essentially what you're proposing with your 2 hour 35 minute timings is a reintroduction of the pre-September 1964 Southern Region express service - fine for Salisbury and Exeter but not much good for Sherborne and Honiton. In 1963, the Southern and Western Regions did a survey of the competing routes to the South West of England and found that five times as many West Country passengers used the Paddington route to Exeter and beyond, and that, although the SR route was shorter, the WR route was quicker. They also concluded that concentrating expresses on the SR route would either require a new spur at Exeter, or time wasting reversal of all Plymouth and Exeter trains at Exeter St Davids (no HSTs or DVTs in 1963!). Focusing expresses on the Southern Route would also have resulted in a less attractive direct service from Taunton to London.

Given the arguments above and also that the Southern lines west of Salisbury were losing money heavily from the late 1950s (in 1957, these lines were failing to cover direct costs by £800,000), the Western Region announced in February 1964 that the WR route would be the trunk route with the SR route restricted to serving a limited number of intermediate stations between Salisbury and Exeter. Over the next 3 years, the WR removed loss making branch lines (e.g. Axminster, Seaton, Sidmouth) and Salisbury - Exeter stopping services, and further cut costs in 1967 by singling the line, leaving the 2 hourly semi-fast service which ran in various iterations until December 2009.

You can argue in retrospect that the WR pruned the services too much, but the cost cutting made sense at the time, and their plan to focus on semi-fast services was, in my opinion, the right one for the long term survival of the line.

Now you could argue that Chiltern Mainline provides an example of redoubling and faster services which could be used as a template for reintroducing Waterloo - Exeter expresses. However, Birmingham is a much larger city than Exeter and the amount of redoubling required (and cost) on the Salisbury - Exeter route is much more than Marylebone - Moor Street. This leads me to conclude that redoubling throughout and reintroducing a duplicate express route to Exeter would not be a cost effective use of public funds.

However, I do agree that Waterloo - Exeter services should be accelerated with the introduction of more and longer passing loops e.g. at Tisbury and Whimple and the removal of Feniton, Whimple, Cranbrook (in 2012) and Pinhoe stops. These stations would be served by a new local service from Honiton to Exeter. With relatively limited investment in infrastructure, these potential developments should allow a reduction in Waterloo - Exeter times to 3 hours.
 

lancastrian

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I also have time on my hands over the christmas period and I feel that some good points have been made. I agree that a Exeter to Honiton local service covering the inbetween stations, so that the Waterloo to Exeter expresses can be speeded up. But this could well mean that it creates other problems if the line stays single between Pinhoe Bridge and Honiton. If this end of the route was redoubled it would make sure that the local services do not cause delays to the expresses, it would give benefit to the whole line.

As I have said before the Axminster loop needs to be linked with the Chard Junction loop, giving a section of double track (or dynamic loop if that is what you prefer) will be of benefit. Next you need to either double track from Crewkerne to Yeovil Junction, with restored second platform at Crewkerne. Or you need a decent loop at Crewkerne.

After Yeovil Junction the double track needs extending through a second platform at Templecombe and for a reasonable decent past Templecombe. The loop at Tisbury needs to be extended through the station with a restored second platform.

The final improvement to this line would be the redouybling of the line from Wilton Junction for about two miles towards Yeovil Junction, simple to make sure that the services are not held before the junction, blocking the Westbury line. This will also give oppotunity for the station at Wilton to be reopened.

Have fun shooting down these ideas, but they would increase the capacity of the line for a lesser cost than the full redoubling. Although it would be better if that was done.
 
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