SailRail confusion

[thunderclap8]

(Please take pity on this ignorant American tourist)

I'm attempting to buy Sail Rail tickets from London to Dublin in February. No matter which date I pick, I see this error message:

"We are sorry, we are not able to find any fares that match your journey details."

I've run into similar errors when trying to purchase on different sites, though this image in particular comes from nationalrail.co.uk

I've looked at the possible reasons that site suggests for the lack of available tickets: I did not select a 'via' station, so I know that option isn't the cause. I find it hard to understand that the other option could be at fault: "there are no trains running when you want to go."

I see tickets for sale from today through 1/1/2012, but no day after that produces any available tickets. Are Sail Rail tickets just not available that far in advance, or am I misunderstanding something about how the system works?

Thanks for any help in understanding! I stumbled on this forum while googling for related info, and you all appear to be experts! Train travel isn't nearly as common here, so I'm still trying to wrap my brain around how it works.

 

[Brucey]

Train fares are due to increase on 2nd January 2012. However, a recent (last minute) government announcement has led to the new fares needing to be recalculated. As a result, fares are only just being loaded into booking systems for journeys after this date.

It would seem that the RailSail fares haven't yet been loaded into the system. Hopefully, this should be done in the next few days.

There are also changes with regards to how the bookings are to be sold from the same date (previously no reservation was required, now a reservation is compulsory). Again, requiring the systems to be changed.

Bear in mind that nationalrail.co.uk won't actually sell you the tickets, it'll just redirect you through to a ticket retailer. It is probably easier to go directly to www.buytickets.arrivatrainswales.co.uk

I can tell you that the fares will be:
High Speed Advance £39.00
Conventional Ferry Advance £35.00
High Speed Walk-up £44.00
Conventional Ferry Walk-up £40.00

 

[wintonian]

These tickets can not be bought on-line and need to be bought at a station or by phone.

There will be 2 new types of ticket for this journey next year an advance ticket and a Walk up ticket.

Advance
available to be booked until 18:00 the day before travel

Walk-up
available on the day of travel

Reservations will be compulsory and no break of journey will be permitted on either ticket.

The walk-up fare will be about £5 more than the advance tickets.

This is for the Stena route but Irish ferries will be very similar.

I suggest booking these at a larger mainline station as they should be more used to selling these or you can ring Stena/ Irish ferries who may be able to sell you one over the phone.

 

[Brucey]

These tickets can not be bought on-line and need to be bought at a station.

ATW website says they can be bought online

 

[wintonian]

ATW website says they can be bought online

I'll take a look, but the thing is, they weren't available, then they were and then they disappeared again a 2/3 months ago

Edit: Just tried and it says that no tickets are available.

You can also book by phoning Arriva on +44(0)8703334870 but as its operated by The Trainline I'm not sure how easy that will be.

 

[thunderclap8]

Thank you both, this does help clarify things. I'll keep an eye on the ATW website for the next few days, and cross my fingers that the fares get loaded.

I'll be ready to purchase tickets in person once I get to London as a backup plan. Can you suggest a larger/mainline station to buy the tickets there?

 

[Brucey]

I'll be ready to purchase tickets in person once I get to London as a backup plan. Can you suggest a larger/mainline station to buy the tickets there?

There are several large stations, which one is best will depend where you are staying/flying into.

I'd suggest probably Paddington or Euston would be better, as their booking offices are operated by the companies who are involved in RailSail (First Great Western and Virgin Trains, respectively).

 

[wintonian]

Thank you both, this does help clarify things. I'll keep an eye on the ATW website for the next few days, and cross my fingers that the fares get loaded.

I'll be ready to purchase tickets in person once I get to London as a backup plan. Can you suggest a larger/mainline station to buy the tickets there?

Euston I think is the best one as the direct boat train leaves from there and its the easiest way to get to Holyhead in any case, so they are quite used to selling them.

That is assuming you will be buying them in London.

 

[thunderclap8]

Looks like Paddington and Euston are about equidistant from where I'm staying - I'll stop in when our touristing takes me near one. Thanks again! Having a real person to ask this stuff to is so helpful.

 

[Brucey]

Gives us a shout if you have any other rail questions. Unfortunately, our fares system is far more complicated that it need be!

 

[wintonian]

This website may be of some use to you, Its a little out of date i.e. tickets aren't available on-line at the moment and the new 2 ticket fare structure hasn't been included yet, but then that information has only just come out.

I would recommend taking the 09:10 direct from Euston to Holyhead and using the Irish Ferries sailing arriving into Dublin at 17:25. The Stena sailing also connects with this train if you would prefer to use that.

 

[4SRKT]

Will Sail Rail tickets bought in Ireland be subject to the reservations/no BOJ rule? Hard to see how they can be TBH as the Stena terminal at Dublin doesn't have proper ticket issuing/reservation systems, and the ticket you get is a hand written docket in a paper folder like an old fashioned airline ticket.

 

[wintonian]

Will Sail Rail tickets bought in Ireland be subject to the reservations/no BOJ rule? Hard to see how they can be TBH as the Stena terminal at Dublin doesn't have proper ticket issuing/reservation systems, and the ticket you get is a hand written docket in a paper folder like an old fashioned airline ticket.

I highly doubt it.

For me there is only a couple of trains I can get out in the morning so thats not a problem. Coming back I sometimes buy a ticket at Connelly anyway so that problem is also solved.

But what you cant do now is go over to Ireland and spend a couple of days somewhere on the way back and the walk up ticket is now £10 more each way roughly a 30% increase.

With the increase it looks like Flybe will now convey me one way, but I don't want to encourage ATOC to abolish these fares all together so I will probably railsail it on the return and give the money to Iarnród Éireann or Translink instead.

 

[4SRKT]

For me the problem is that I like to use Rail & Sail not as a way to get a cheap fare to North Wales, but a way of combining an Irish trip with a cheap long distance trip in the UK. For instance this summer I'd like to get a return Rail & Sail from Dublin to Wick, breaking at home on the return portion before going back to Dublin a few days later. This won't be possible on advance only tickets, but if the Irish-bought tickets don't/can't have this restriction, it sounds like a go-er to me

 

[wintonian]

For me the problem is that I like to use Rail & Sail not as a way to get a cheap fare to North Wales, but a way of combining an Irish trip with a cheap long distance trip in the UK. For instance this summer I'd like to get a return Rail & Sail from Dublin to Wick, breaking at home on the return portion before going back to Dublin a few days later. This won't be possible on advance only tickets, but if the Irish-bought tickets don't/can't have this restriction, it sounds like a go-er to me

There far easier to buy in Ireland as well - only takes a couple on mins.

 

[4SRKT]

Excellent! Wick, here I come for the first time since 1987

 

[wintonian]

I would check to be on the safe side.

Please note that tickets for SailRail to the UK and European Rail travel can be purchased By calling +353 (0)1 703 1884/5 between 09.00-17.00 Monday to Friday only.

Most guards have never seen a paper CIV before and I wouldn't be surprised if you did happen to find one who knows about sailral that they are under the impression that the restrictions are the same, so you may have issues.

Having said that it's unlikely you will as most have never (apart from those working around north Wales and London to Crew/ Holyhead trains etc.) come across British issued ones let alone Irish issued ones

 

[4SRKT]

I will certainly check, but I think it's most unlikely that they will be advances.

 

[TUC]

Train fares are due to increase on 2nd January 2012. However, a recent (last minute) government announcement has led to the new fares needing to be recalculated. As a result, fares are only just being loaded into booking systems for journeys after this date.

Off-topic but where does that leave passengers who have already bought tickets at the originally planned higher fare but have now paid too much for their ticket?

 

[wintonian]

Off-topic but where does that leave passengers who have already bought tickets at the originally planned higher fare but have now paid too much for their ticket?

They are bound by the T&C's that existed when they bought the ticket.

In any case these rules don't coming until the first Sunday in Jan (Jan 1st) or is it the first Mon in Jan?

 

[MikeWh]

Off-topic but where does that leave passengers who have already bought tickets at the originally planned higher fare but have now paid too much for their ticket?

I don't believe anyone could have done so. The announcement of the change in policy happened before the new fares were due to go live on December 5th. The revised pricing only went live yesterday, so up until Monday it was still possible to book 2012 travel at 2011 prices.

 

[4SRKT]

Small worry that I've just come across with Sail Rail tickets being restricted to certain trains is the tightness of the connection at Chester into the 'boat train' 22:56 departure from there to Holyhead. The train from Manchester gets into Chester at 22:51 and so any passengers trying to use the overnight boat from Manchester or anywhere in Yorkshire or North East England will be pushed into a connection that nobody in his right mind would make on an open ticket. Can't confirm this as the Stena Website is bloody useless and just says 'there are 0 journeys matching' no matter what origin and date you put in. Is there ever going to be any clarity on how this Sail Rail farce is going to work?

 

[steffo]

Just a footnote on the Stena / Irish ferries ships. I found the Stena ship when having a meal/drink a lot cheaper than the Irish ferries one.

 

[smckane]

On the seat61.com website it mentions...

* = Avoid the Stena Line bus! The 11:42 train from Glasgow continues to Stranraer through pretty Scottish scenery arriving 13:54, in plenty of time to take a 5.6 mile 9-minute £13 taxi ride to Cairnryan ferry terminal. ... SailRail tickets will remain valid via Stranraer, but won't cover the taxi, obviously.

seat61.com/NorthernIreland.htm

Is this truly the case, is the ticket still valid to Stranraer?

The Stena website is horrific for finding out SailRail details, I had to email customer services to get details of what the connections are at Ayr:

The sailing times for the Rail and Sail option from Belfast to Cairnryan are: 07.30am, 11.30am, and 15.30pm.

The 07.30am will arrive in Cairnryan at 09.45am, the coach will then leave the port at 10.15am, arriving into Ayr Train Station at 11.25am.

The 11.30am will arrive in Cairnryan at 13.45pm, the coach will then leave the port at 14.15pm, arriving in Ayr Train Station at 15.25pm.

The 15.30pm will arrive in Cairnryan at 17.45pm, the coach will then leave the port at 18.15pm, arriving in Ayr Train Station at 19.25pm.

The sailing time for the Rail and Sail option from Cairnryan to Blefast are 11.30am, 15.30pm and 19.30pm.

The train will leave Ayr Train Station at 08.45am arriving in Cairnryan at 09.55, to connect with the 11.30am sailing.

The train will leave Ayr Train Station at 12.45pm arriving in Cairnryan at 13.55, to connect with the 15.30pm sailing.

The train will leave Ayr Train Station at 16.45pm arriving in Cairnryan at 17.55, to connect with the 19.30pm sailing.

To be honest, those timings are awful, so much hanging around waiting for the boat, and very little slack for when the boat is late / there is a massive queue again upon disembarking. Not impressive...

I remain quite confused about the changes and implications, I don't suppose The Manual's version is clearer?

 

[RJ]

I used to sell lots of RailSail tickets, great fun collating the umpteen accompanying reservations for the customers . Quite a fiddly process though, would agree with advice to aim for stations where the "boat trains" go from.

 

[4SRKT]

I used to sell lots of RailSail tickets, great fun collating the umpteen accompanying reservations for the customers . Quite a fiddly process though, would agree with advice to aim for stations where the "boat trains" go from.

Which is fine if you live in, say, Chester, but less so if you live here. Basically Rail & Sail to Dublin on the night boat will be effectively unusable unless you live along the line of the 19:10 Euston > Holyhead or 19:34 Cardiff > Holyhead.

Will ATW put on a taxi from Chester to Holyhead for those passengers arriving late on the 21:50 ex-Manchester, and missing the 22:56 to Holyhead? After all it is their penny-pinching that will force people into this risky move.

 

[TUC]

Will ATW put on a taxi from Chester to Holyhead for those passengers arriving late on the 21:50 ex-Manchester, and missing the 22:56 to Holyhead? After all it is their penny-pinching that will force people into this risky move.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage includes the following';
'8. International journeys
These Conditions do not apply if a ticket is issued for an international rail journey within
Europe (including any journey wholly within one country to connect with an international
rail journey). In such cases, carriage is subject to:
(a) the Uniform Rules concerning the Contract for International Carriage of
Passengers and Luggage by Rail (CIV), these being appendix A to the
Convention concerning International Carriage by Rail (COTIF) ... .

These Uniform Rules can be found at; http://www.vr.fi/attachments/asiakaspalvelu/newfolder/5rm29GKaR/uniform_rules_civ.pdf

Article 11 of the Uniform Rules states;
'Cancellation and late running of trains. Missed connections
The carrier must, where necessary, certify on the ticket that the train has been cancelled or the connection missed'.

-which is somewhat unclear to say the least! I take it that the implication is that with a missed connection the ticket should be certified so that it is valid on a later journey but it would be much better if it explicitly said that. It also does not make clear the position about alternative transport for missed final trains of the day although I would hope that TOCs would honour the spirit of their wider National Rail obligations even though it is an international ticket.

The other issue that is left unclear is what is the status of journeys to Northern Ireland and is it the National Rail conditions or the Uniform Rules that apply for such journeys. Northern Ireland is within the UK so travel to it isn't an intenational journey but it isn't part of the National Rail system either so which set of rules/conditions apply to such journeys?

 

[4SRKT]

Basically there is no way on earth I would risk going for a boat on the basis of a 5 minute connection at Chester (or anywhere else). Even if a taxi were to be provided I wouldn't want to risk having to sit in car with a stranger all the way from Chester to Holyhead. I and everyone else from Greater Manchester, Yorkshire or the North East who is used to using the night boat should now use the following link:

www.ryanair.com

The day boat is OK though, as the connection is onto the 09:10 ex-Euston, with more generous connections at Manchester and Crewe (rather than Chester).

 

[Paul Kelly]

Is this truly the case, is the ticket still valid to Stranraer?

I used a Glasgow Cen/QSt to Belfast NI anytime day single via Stranraer on Monday 19th December - the guard on the Ayr to Stranraer train knew what I was doing and had no problem with it. It probably helped that the route shown on the ticket was still "STRANRAER STENA" - bought from the Scotrail ticket machines at Glasgow Central.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh and about the 5-minute connection at Chester. Can you not just ask the booking clerk for the specific trains you want booked on? Is that impossible these days?

 

[4SRKT]

IOh and about the 5-minute connection at Chester. Can you not just ask the booking clerk for the specific trains you want booked on? Is that impossible these days?

On open tickets it's fine, but on advances the route and trains are pre-determined. Chester has no minimum connection time so a 5 minute connection isn't barred if one happens to be available.

Oh for the days of the 20:00 Scarborough > Holyhead......