S Stock feels dated despite age

[Wolfie]

Going to start off by saying I don’t think S Stock are bad trains by any stretch of the imagination - they’re a massive improvement on what came before them.

However, they do not feel their age, and I mean this in a negative way. Despite entering service in 2010, the interiors of the trains feel like they’re from the 90s with their dim yellow halogen light tubes, worn seats/armrests, and lack of any digital screens, along with a very dated colour scheme. With the New Tube for London on the way for the Piccadilly line (and hopefully the Bakerloo), I think it’s appropriate that TfL should start to look into how these trains can be brought up to a similar standard.

At the very least, the seat moquettes should be replaced, and new LED lighting should be installed. Both of these changes wouldn’t be too costly to implement.

Wishful thinking would also see the dot matrix replaced with screens similar to those on the 345s, with much better way finding.

Having used the S stock regularly l would fundamentally disagree. I would also question your priorities when resources are constrained. That also assumes that extant contractual arrangement permit your aspirations.

It's even more ironic that people - some the same? - massively praise the absolutely clapped out 72 stock.on the Bakerloo line and had raptures over the A stock which was at best obsolescent on the day that it entered service

 

[MaidaVale]

I disagree with this to be honest. I think they've held up pretty well. The seat covers and armrests could do with a refresh, and I believe there's still a tender out for this to be completed over the next couple of years. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

In regards to lighting, the S-Stock have perfectly bright interior lights with a good colour temperature imo, and as much as they might not be LED, they're not too dim like the 92s appear in some cases. If switching to LED lighting offers a genuine improvement or benefit in a few years, then fine, but for now it's not broke so it doesn't need fixing.

The P.I.S system is perfectly good. Good quality, large, high-DPI dot-matrix displays that scroll at a decent speed and don't flicker much. They also use an adapted version of the Johnston font, so they fit perfectly in with the design style too. Many metro trains across Europe and the wider world are still being delivered with dot-matrix displays and the fact that they've been a staple for 30 years now prove that they're pretty versatile and fit-for-purpose. As part of a mid-life upgrade should that ever happen, I think the addition of 4:3 LCD-esque monitors facing sideways up near the advertisements to supplement the existing dot-matrix wouldn't go amiss, similar to what they retrofitted on the Stockholm Tunnelbana fleet from the 2000s (and in fact what's currently still being delivered on their new fleet). I'd see no reason to physically replace the dot-matrix displays, as a direct replacement with LCD displays similar to those on the 345s would offer very little benefit other than showing status updates, and longer messages have to be shown across multiple pages rather than just one scrolling line.

 

[Silent]

I disagree with this to be honest. I think they've held up pretty well. The seat covers and armrests could do with a refresh, and I believe there's still a tender out for this to be completed over the next couple of years. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

In regards to lighting, the S-Stock have perfectly bright interior lights with a good colour temperature imo, and as much as they might not be LED, they're not too dim like the 92s appear in some cases. If switching to LED lighting offers a genuine improvement or benefit in a few years, then fine, but for now it's not broke so it doesn't need fixing.

The P.I.S system is perfectly good. Good quality, large, high-DPI dot-matrix displays that scroll at a decent speed and don't flicker much. They also use an adapted version of the Johnston font, so they fit perfectly in with the design style too. Many metro trains across Europe and the wider world are still being delivered with dot-matrix displays and the fact that they've been a staple for 30 years now prove that they're pretty versatile and fit-for-purpose. As part of a mid-life upgrade should that ever happen, I think the addition of 4:3 LCD-esque monitors facing sideways up near the advertisements to supplement the existing dot-matrix wouldn't go amiss, similar to what they retrofitted on the Stockholm Tunnelbana fleet from the 2000s (and in fact what's currently still being delivered on their new fleet). I'd see no reason to physically replace the dot-matrix displays, as a direct replacement with LCD displays similar to those on the 345s would offer very little benefit other than showing status updates, and longer messages have to be shown across multiple pages rather than just one scrolling line.

I wonder how they would fit a screen then the advert wall is curved. A flat screen would look out of place. Me, I would rather they replaced the dmi with screens if they were adding screens rather than a supplementary screen as it would look like it belongs to the train more, or look more integrated. But screens are obviously not necessary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The lights don’t have a proper cover over them, which shows the tube. That design is very much 90s, maybe even earlier. The old sub-surface trains had visible tubes.

Electrostars (but oddly not Turbostars) are the same, with a sort of mesh over it.

 

[stuu]

I wonder how they would fit a screen then the advert wall is curved. A flat screen would look out of place. Me, I would rather they replaced the dmi with screens if they were adding screens rather than a supplementary screen as it would look like it belongs to the train more, or look more integrated. But screens are obviously not necessary.

Curved LCD screens are pretty straightforward these days

To the original question, I disagree, they could do with some TLC but they don't feel dated to me. Lighting is a personal preference, I far prefer warm lighting, or the slightly dimmer than expected feel of the EL

 

[Silent]

Curved LCD screens are pretty straightforward these days

To the original question, I disagree, they could do with some TLC but they don't feel dated to me. Lighting is a personal preference, I far prefer warm lighting, or the slightly dimmer than expected feel of the EL

I would assume led screens but I don’t see them implemented on something like public transport the 24 stock appears to have flat screens.

 

[Thirteen]

I don't think it'd be that hard to install a full LCD PIS, a lot of buses have recently refurbished with PIS in colour.

I think the 2009 Stock would be an interesting case study of installing things like LCD screens.

 

[bramling]

Electrostars (but oddly not Turbostars) are the same, with a sort of mesh over it.

I believe this was a deliberate design choice on the S stock, to design out the problem of dust / dirt accumulating in fully enclosed diffusers.

If you look at something like the 95/96 or 09 stocks the diffusers always appear dirty, though personally I prefer this to the S stock, but that’s a personal preference.

I really don’t understand this fad for ultra-bright cool white. I’ve recently taken to wearing blue-light-blocking glasses (for unrelated reasons) and it feels so much better. If you take them off on one of the trains with the really bright blue-tinge lighting you really notice the immediate strain on the eyes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really don’t understand this fad for ultra-bright cool white. I’ve recently taken to wearing blue-light-blocking glasses (for unrelated reasons) and it feels so much better. If you take them off on one of the trains with the really bright blue-tinge lighting you really notice the immediate strain on the eyes.

Cool white does work if you keep lighting levels reasonably low (the Irish DMUs do this quite well), but I'd agree if you're going to go brighter warm white is much more pleasant.

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I believe this was a deliberate design choice on the S stock, to design out the problem of dust / dirt accumulating in fully enclosed diffusers.

It's not a terrible idea though it does require slightly brighter tubes than otherwise. Some 158s have been retrofitted for that reason.

 

[FrontSideBus]

I think the fluorescent lighting as-is is very nice. Warm white and very nicely diffused with lack of glare and good even overall illumination. The worst thing they could do would be to fit daylight LED. Cool white might be ok though.

 

[Silent]

I don't think it'd be that hard to install a full LCD PIS, a lot of buses have recently refurbished with PIS in colour.

I think the 2009 Stock would be an interesting case study of installing things like LCD screens.

It might mean changing the dmi casing though which might be expensive. I think from the 2010’s design became more angular it boxy and I think the extended use of led lights and displays was a big reason for the trend.

 

[AM9]

Cool white does work if you keep lighting levels reasonably low (the Irish DMUs do this quite well), but I'd agree if you're going to go brighter warm white is much more pleasant.

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I think the fluorescent lighting as-is is very nice. Warm white and very nicely diffused with lack of glare and good even overall illumination. The worst thing they could do would be to fit daylight LED. Cool white might be ok though.

Fluorescent lights tend to have two peak emissions, around 550nm, like apple green and 615nm, a medium orange. These peaks do require colour significant messaging signage to appear as intended both in those conditions and natural daylight.

 

[Pegpilot]

Gosh. Seems like only yesterday we were playing around with the S Stock config and performance to ensure it met the performance requirements under the PPP contract (anyone remember that?). And there were originally supposed to be more 8-car and fewer 7-car trains in the mix because LUK's strategic planners asked us to assume a Met Main service all the way to Barking. Until, that is, the line management got wind of the proposal and it quickly got canned!

 

[MaidaVale]

I wonder how they would fit a screen then the advert wall is curved. A flat screen would look out of place.

Excuse the poor photo quality (quick screengrab from a YouTube video), but this is how it was retrofitted on the C20 fleet on the Stockholm Metro in the example I mentioned. The advertisement boards are also slightly curved and at an awkward angle, but they've fashioned a screen bracket that I think fits in really well with the rest of the train. I've gone with this as an example as the stock share a lot of similarities with the S-Stock and had a similar existing P.I.S before their respective refurbs.

It might mean changing the dmi casing though which might be expensive.

This would be one of the driving factors as to why I don't see the point in ever replacing the DMIs with LCDs. The casing around the DMIs also contain the CCTV cameras onboard the S-Stock fleet, so having to work those into the new casing would be an additional challenge, along with making sure they still provide good visibility at an acceptable angle for the whole carriage. There's no benefits to warrant the costs of replacing the entire system when a simple additional side-facing LCD would actually offer more benefits in the form of extra displays per carriage that people can read easier whilst seated sideways.

 

[Silent]

View attachment 189132


Excuse the poor photo quality (quick screengrab from a YouTube video), but this is how it was retrofitted on the C20 fleet on the Stockholm Metro in the example I mentioned. The advertisement boards are also slightly curved and at an awkward angle, but they've fashioned a screen bracket that I think fits in really well with the rest of the train. I've gone with this as an example as the stock share a lot of similarities with the S-Stock and had a similar existing P.I.S before their respective refurbs.



This would be one of the driving factors as to why I don't see the point in ever replacing the DMIs with LCDs. The casing around the DMIs also contain the CCTV cameras onboard the S-Stock fleet, so having to work those into the new casing would be an additional challenge, along with making sure they still provide good visibility at an acceptable angle for the whole carriage. There's no benefits to warrant the costs of replacing the entire system when a simple additional side-facing LCD would actually offer more benefits in the form of extra displays per carriage that people can read easier whilst seated sideways.

It fits okay on that train. I feel I’m fine with s stock without screens. Imo sometimes refurbs make a train look worse if the things added don’t look like they fit naturally in the interior.

 

[richa2002]

Lack of screens and silly bright white LEDs gets a thumbs up from me.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

I always thought that the lighting on the C Stock from pictures and personal riding was somewhat better than the S Stock. Did the C Stock use cool white tubes? The combination of cool white and grapefruit grabrails looked pleasant. I have never found the S Stock interior to be as good as the excessive use of yellow and biege is quite garish in my view and the black moquette doesn’t look terribly attractive.

Apart from that, I find the S Stock a perfectly functional train and very well suited to its role. The DMI indicators are fit for purpose but do look dated seeing as forthcoming TFL new builds use LCD “TV Style” displays which show a wealth more information. In the PPP procurement of the 2009 Stock said LCD live journey update displays were proposed and very nearly specified, unfortunately cost was the trouble and they used traditional scrolling Dot Matrix Displays instead.

 

[Goldfish62]

I wonder if the harsh led lighting in other modern stock is to prevent people from falling asleep on the train?

No, it's just poor design choice.

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Normally people on these pages are complaining about stock having surgery eye-searing cold white lighting. S-stock often given as an example of how it should be done. Bit of a novelty to see someone calling for the opposite!

Indeed!

The yellow lighting was a deliberate design decision to get away from harsh white lighting which makes train interiors resemble a fridge. It's also why the lighting is dimmer on the Class 345s.

 

[sh24]

I always thought that the lighting on the C Stock from pictures and personal riding was somewhat better than the S Stock. Did the C Stock use cool white tubes? The combination of cool white and grapefruit grabrails looked pleasant. I have never found the S Stock interior to be as good as the excessive use of yellow and biege is quite garish in my view and the black moquette doesn’t look terribly attractive.

C stock (and indeed A stock) had harsh white fluorescent tubes. It's personal, but I found them a much less pleasantly lit environment.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

C stock (and indeed A stock) had harsh white fluorescent tubes. It's personal, but I found them a much less pleasantly lit environment.

Speaking of lighting and different colours the C Stock and A Stock towards the end of their life had some pinkish tubes alongside the traditional harsh white tubes? Why was the variation in the colour of the tubes?

 

[Silent]

No, it's just poor design choice.

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Indeed!

The yellow lighting was a deliberate design decision to get away from harsh white lighting which makes train interiors resemble a fridge. It's also why the lighting is dimmer on the Class 345s.

Harsh cold white lighting would look terrible with the greys in a class 345

 

[John R]

Yellow grab poles on trains was so 2000s.

More "so Circle Line", as the grab poles on underground trains match the colour of the line they operate on. Of course, there is a problem with the S stock, as it is used on 4 different lines, so short of having different colours throughout the carriages, or each pole having coloured stripes, the theme cannot be continued consistently.

 

[bramling]

I always thought that the lighting on the C Stock from pictures and personal riding was somewhat better than the S Stock. Did the C Stock use cool white tubes? The combination of cool white and grapefruit grabrails looked pleasant. I have never found the S Stock interior to be as good as the excessive use of yellow and biege is quite garish in my view and the black moquette doesn’t look terribly attractive.

Apart from that, I find the S Stock a perfectly functional train and very well suited to its role. The DMI indicators are fit for purpose but do look dated seeing as forthcoming TFL new builds use LCD “TV Style” displays which show a wealth more information. In the PPP procurement of the 2009 Stock said LCD live journey update displays were proposed and very nearly specified, unfortunately cost was the trouble and they used traditional scrolling Dot Matrix Displays instead.

C stock got changed to cool white at some point. I was never overly keen on it, I preferred it before they made the change. Same with A stock. The cool white made the interiors feel very cold.

 

[Snex]

Don't know whether trains have a different lighting spectrum but cool white is a horrid colour and doesn't belong anywhere. If you want it to be bright it should, at least, be Natural Light (around 4000K) imo.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Don't know whether trains have a different lighting spectrum but cool white is a horrid colour and doesn't belong anywhere. If you want it to be bright it should, at least, be Natural Light (around 4000K) imo.

Cool white is 4000k.

The standard for decades has been:
Very warm white 2700k
Warm white 3000k
White 3500k
Cool white 4000-4500k
Daylight 5000-5500k
Cool daylight 6000-6500k
7000k+ Skywhite

 

[dosxuk]

Speaking of lighting and different colours the C Stock and A Stock towards the end of their life had some pinkish tubes alongside the traditional harsh white tubes? Why was the variation in the colour of the tubes?

Fluorescent tubes often tend towards a pink hue when they begin to fail.

 

[Bikeman78]

Quite. These units are as close to perfect for their role as they will ever get.

What do they want, junk like 777s?

I've liked them since day one. They get with the job efficiently. The seats are worn but that's easily sorted.

 

[Siimo]

The two things I appreciate about the S Stock as a passenger are the huge windows and what feels like a high ceiling, which, with the full walk-through, contribute to mitigating the experience of a crowded train. Front looks modern whilst still fitting in with what a Tube train should look like.

 

[AM9]

Cool white is 4000k.

The standard for decades has been:
Very warm white 2700k
Warm white 3000k
White 3500k
Cool white 4000-4500k
Daylight 5000-5500k
Cool daylight 6000-6500k
7000k+ Skywhite

Then as many of the S stock units spend more time in the open,, sometimes dipping in and out of tunnels, daylight temperature would be considered the most appropriate colour for their lighting.

 

[Silent]

More "so Circle Line", as the grab poles on underground trains match the colour of the line they operate on. Of course, there is a problem with the S stock, as it is used on 4 different lines, so short of having different colours throughout the carriages, or each pole having coloured stripes, the theme cannot be continued consistently.

True although northern and jubilee lines also had yellow grab poles originally. I remember a concept cgi image of the s stock I think it had line green grab poles in the picture.

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Then as many of the S stock units spend more time in the open,, sometimes dipping in and out of tunnels, daylight temperature would be considered the most appropriate colour for their lighting.

I disagree. I think the warm lighting is appropriate.