Russia invades Ukraine

[GusB]

Many countries like "Gambia" and "Netherlands" and "Ukraine" are supposed to always have "the" in front of them to be grammatically correct. You can say it either way. I was always taught to put "the" in front.

Many countries like "Gambia" and "Netherlands" and "Ukraine" are supposed to always have "the" in front of them to be grammatically correct. You can say it either way. I was always taught to put "the" in front.

Many countries like "Gambia" and "Netherlands" and "Ukraine" are supposed to always have "the" in front of them to be grammatically correct. You can say it either way. I was always taught to put "the" in front.

Why do you feel the need to repeat exactly the same nonsense three times in the same post? It doesn't make it any more true each time you repeat it!

This is exactly the same bull that was spouted in this thread a year ago.

 

[Cdd89]

If Russia indefinitely invests all its military capital into this war, and assuming Putin isn’t ousted (which doesn’t seem likely), it will ultimately get something out of it. That’s just reality, this war is almost certain to end in a negotiated settlement after sufficient time has passed without progress rather than total victory or defeat.

What we (as in “the West”) can do is ensure that they get less than they would like and that it comes at a far greater cost than it is “worth”, to ensure that neither they nor other despotic leaders try it again.

 

[busestrains]

Sorry, are you now telling a country what their own name is?

The change of name is clearly documented, and your continued use of the ruzzian names for Ukraine, Kyiv, etc, clearly speaks volumes.

Russian and Ukrainian are both used in the Ukraine and therefore both versions are correct. There is no right or wrong way of spelling these city names. Kiev and Kyiv are equally as correct and either can be used. Lvov and Lviv are equally as correct and either can be used.

Many countries have multiple languages spoken and therefore multiple ways of spelling words and city names. So there is not always just one way to spell something. There are other examples of this as well. Wales is another place where most cities and towns have two different spellings.

Can you imagine if the Welsh government starting saying that we should no longer use Cardiff and have to say Caerdydd instead or that we should no longer use Newport and have to say Casnewydd instead or that we should no longer use Swansea and have to say Abertawe instead. That is exactly what the Ukrainian government is trying to do. They are trying to erase the Russian language even though it has always been used alongside Ukrainian there. Russian and Ukrainian are both languages of the Ukraine and therefore both of the spellings are equally as correct.

The pro Russia trolls are back? Even almost a year later they're still immediately identifiable by their helpless attempts to defend the indefensible.

It makes me laugh that anyone who criticises Zelensky or the Ukrainian government and anyone who does not agree with the mainstream Western viewpoint of the war is automatically considered to be a pro Russian troll by so many people.

And you have been corrected, repeatedly. The fact that you refuse to change means that it isn't ignorance but a willful act.

To be honest with the war going on i think there are more important things to be worrying about rather than whether someone calls the country "the Ukraine" or just "Ukraine" instead.

Why do you feel the need to repeat exactly the same nonsense three times in the same post? It doesn't make it any more true each time you repeat it!

This is exactly the same bull that was spouted in this thread a year ago.

Because i was replying to three different people who had said the same thing.

 

[Cdd89]

To be honest with the war going on i think there are more important things to be worrying about rather than whether someone calls the country "the Ukraine" or just "Ukraine" instead.

It is the other way around. If there wasn’t an ongoing conflict with Russia few people would care about the indefinite article.

If it is unclear to you why people care during a war where Ukraine is fighting for its right to exist free from Russia, I’d recommend reading the first few pages of this thread. Admittedly I didn’t know this detail a year ago but everyone with a passing interest ought to be aware now.

 

[357]

Russian and Ukrainian are both used in the Ukraine and therefore both versions are correct. There is no right or wrong way of spelling these city names. Kiev and Kyiv are equally as correct and either can be used. Lvov and Lviv are equally as correct and either can be used.

Many countries have multiple languages spoken and therefore multiple ways of spelling words and city names. So there is not always just one way to spell something. There are other examples of this as well. Wales is another place where most cities and towns have two different spellings.

Can you imagine if the Welsh government starting saying that we should no longer use Cardiff and have to say Caerdydd instead or that we should no longer use Newport and have to say Casnewydd instead or that we should no longer use Swansea and have to say Abertawe instead. That is exactly what the Ukrainian government is trying to do. They are trying to erase the Russian language even though it has always been used alongside Ukrainian there. Russian and Ukrainian are both languages of the Ukraine and therefore both of the spellings are equally as correct

The situation in Wales is different.

The people in Ukraine speak ruZZian as a direct result of systematic attempts to erase the Ukrainian language from existence over many decades.

I'm back in Ukraine in a few weeks. Feel free to come with me and ask real local people about your viewpoint. Come and visit the classes in Ukrainian that people are taking because they don't want to speak ruZZian anymore.

Kyiv is correct. There is no alternative spelling. The russian spelling might have been more widely used until a few years ago, but that's not because it's correct - it's all very well documented.

 

[Russel]

If Russia indefinitely invests all its military capital into this war, and assuming Putin isn’t ousted (which doesn’t seem likely), it will ultimately get something out of it. That’s just reality, this war is almost certain to end in a negotiated settlement after sufficient time has passed without progress rather than total victory or defeat.

What we (as in “the West”) can do is ensure that they get less than they would like and that it comes at a far greater cost than it is “worth”, to ensure that neither they nor other despotic leaders try it again.

This has been my view for a long time now, as much as we would all love to see Ukraine kick Russia back to pre 2014 borders, in reality, as you say, it will end in a negotiated settlement, I predict at the very least, Ukraine will have to accept loosing Crimea.

The question is how long and how much more death and destruction will it take to reach that point.

 

[357]

Ukraine will have to accept loosing Crimea.

That's where my wife is from. The native Crimeans are sick of russia and their antics, and many of the russians who moved there are sick of their home being used as a launch pad. The coming years for Crimea will be interesting to say the least.

 

[Cross City]

I think Zelensky has handled this war terribly. He has refused to negotiate


I think the solution is negotiating a peace deal where the Ukraine agrees to recognise, Crimea, Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk, Zaphorizhzhia, provinces as being part of Russia

Which piece of the UK would you be willing to give away to Russia should they invade us?

If they landed on the south coast and marched towards London would you be willing to sell the lives of the millions of people who live in Surrey, Sussex, Kent and Hants. People who are fighting to stay a part of your country?

Easy to play armchair quarterback when it's not your land.

Zelenskyy will go down as one of the greatest leaders of all time for the steadfast bravery of him and the of the people of Ukraine in the face of a bully the size of Russia.

It's also mad that you're defending the use of chemical weapons by another nation on British soil.

 

[adc82140]

The UK, France and Germany have all ruled out sending fighter jets in the short to medium term. However in reflection I think Zenenskyy knew this would happen. He's pulled a blinder by asking for the unachievable, and getting the achievable, which is more ammunition for existing weapons systems. Russia is not some high tech army- it's quantity rather than quality. That brute force quantity approach could break through, so artillery rounds, tanks etc are needed to beat them back, not aircraft.

 

[Annetts key]

The UK, France and Germany have all ruled out sending fighter jets in the short to medium term. However in reflection I think Zenenskyy knew this would happen.

That’s not my take on it. The U.S.A. have said no for now. That does not mean never. They can change their mind at any time.

The U.K. and France have said words to the effect that they are considering the request. Now, both of these countries don’t operate or have F16 aircraft.

It’s impossible to predict if the western countries will provide “fighter jets” or on what timescale.

I think it is possible that at some point, a decision will be made by multiple countries that “western” military aircraft will be supplied.

The important point is this, I don’t think the western countries want to be seen to give too much military assistance to Ukraine all in one go, as it will be interpreted as a significant escalation by Russia. Hence the stream of smaller announcements, but which build up over time

As to the comments from the anti-war member(s), I don’t want to see people killed. But remember it was Russia under Putin who started this war. This war started in 2014 when Russia invaded parts of sovereign internationally recognised Ukraine. Parts of Ukraine that previously Russia officially recognised as Ukraine.

But Russia did not stop there. It was Russia that escalated the situation. It was Russia that tried to take Kyiv. What percentage of the population of Kyiv speak Russian as their primary language?

Hence the legitimate government of Ukraine is entitled to defend itself, and to fight to regain control of its legitimate territory from the invader.

The language spoken in Ukraine is irrelevant. What language an individual speaks is entirely up to them. Or are you suggesting the the U.S.A. or the U.K. can legitimately invade any part of any country where English is spoken?

Peace talks were attempted. Russia showed absolutely no signs that it would compromise and withdraw any of its forces.

In terms of the military equipment and ammunition and other military supplies that lots of countries have provided to Ukraine, keep in mind that this was all designed and built to be used. Not to sit in a warehouse or museum. And ALL of it will have a limited useful lifespan. Ammunition for example cannot be stored indefinitely, it has a use by date. Tanks, APC, self propelled artillery, all have to be maintained. And all gradually became obsolete over time.

So even if there were no wars, counties would still have to spend vast sums of money on defence. Far better for the U.K. to help a country in need rather than let an invader (Russia) smash a country and its people to smithereens. You only have to look at the war crimes that the Russia forces have committed. This war is most definitely not about Russia looking after people who speak Russian. Putin is not even interested in looking after Russians that are being sent to fight in Ukraine.

And yes, Russia is most definitely a threat to the U.K., friendly or neutral countries do not send military aircraft and ships close to the air space or territorial waters of other countries without agreement/permission. Yet, this is exactly what the Russians have been doing around the U.K. for some time now.

China went further with a balloon flying over the U.S.A.

And finally, appeasement never works with a bully. Putin is a bully. There is absolutely no doubt about it.

Plus, as others have said, the western countries have to make sure that every country around the world sees that trying to invade a sovereign internationally recognised country (that we are friendly with) will not be worthwhile for the invader. To just sit back and wash our hands would be very dangerous for world wide peace.

 

[jon0844]

Are you genuinely so naïve to think that is the least bit achievable? Metaphorically speaking do you genuinely believe that giving away your lunch money means the school bully will leave you alone?

You're engaging with someone who seems to think that Hitler wasn't such a bad person because he did a few good things, Andrew Tate has some weird views but also says things that we can all agree on, and now thinks Putin isn't a dictator but isn't always nice.

I think the best advice is to ignore the posts entirely.. it's either trolling on an epic level, or someone really is gunning for Russia to win and wants to do everything possible to undermine the efforts of Ukraine and the rest of the world.

 

[Falcon1200]

I think Zelensky has handled this war terribly. He has refused to negotiate and have talks with Russia which could bring a ceasefire or end the war. If he wanted to Zelensky could have talks with Russia and negotiate a peace deal to end the war.

By refused to negotiate you mean cede Ukrainian territory to a foreign invading power, thus encouraging further such incursions and land grabs in future, not just by Russia but elsewhere (China, Taiwan?). Perhaps Churchill should have negotiated with Hitler in 1940, thus potentially saving Allied and Axis lives, albeit at the expense of leaving mainland Europe under Nazi control. No, aggressors have to be stopped, eventually, the cost in lives and destruction will be high but the alternative is far, far worse.

 

[Parjon]

Why do you feel the need to repeat exactly the same nonsense three times in the same post? It doesn't make it any more true each time you repeat it!

This is exactly the same bull that was spouted in this thread a year ago.

It's called gaslighting.

It's worth noting that gaslighting has been a central plank in the deliberate long term strategy of dumbing down the Russian public.

They have been bombarded with messaging like this for years to the point not where they truly believe it, but where they give up trying to process it. And then go along with it. (And then the voices that speak the truth are physically silenced, and the people can be told more forcefully what to believe).

It is also how their troll farms seed their lies into the vulnerable in our own free societies, and use them to deliberately amplify disputes. Or indeed introduce them when no dispute previously existed. For example, suggesting there are "two sides to every story" regarding matters of respecting basics such as human life.

Russia's gangster government and those that willingly do their violent bidding are indeed a malign stain on humanity, and represents the very worst that humans can be. Beyond any reasonable question.

Which places something of a spotlight on those who would ask us to question that, doesn't it!!

I am pleased that plenty of people now see these trolls for what they are as it helps reduce their power over others.

 

[nlogax]

Russian and Ukrainian are both used in the Ukraine and therefore both versions are correct. There is no right or wrong way of spelling these city names. Kiev and Kyiv are equally as correct and either can be used. Lvov and Lviv are equally as correct and either can be used.

For the umpteenth time it's 'Ukraine'. Use of the definite article is an absolute throwback to when Ukraine was part of the USSR and I'm certain you're well aware of that.

 

[Yew]

I disagree. You're comparing apples with oranges. The UK requires the ability to intercept, and if needs be destroy, incoming hostile aircraft as far away from our shores as possible. The Typhoon is far more capable in that role than the F-35B.

Unless it's higher radar cross section gets it shot down.

 

[dosxuk]

The last time i visited those parts, Crimea, Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk, Zaphorizhzhia, was over ten years ago so maybe things have changed now. But when i was there it did certainly seem to be very pro Russia compared to the rest of the country. The people i had spoked to were mostly pro Russian and some people wanted to join Russia too. Maybe things have changed so i can not comment on recent opinions.

Things significantly changed when Russia invaded Crimea. Suddenly people realised that Putin was interested in expanding his borders and suddenly the friendly neighbours looked a lot less friendly. Ten years ago is a long time in international relations for Russia - at that point things were calm, they had friendly relationships with their neighbours and most of Europe; in fact the only real bad thing they seemed to be up to was trying to cheat a bit at the Olympics.

I suspect you're also willingly misinterpreting "pro-Russia" to mean "pro-being-invaded-by-Russia", which I also suspect is not what the locals were thinking. Many in the UK are pro-EU, but that doesn't mean they want to be invaded, killed at random and then the UK to be removed from history. For the average Ukranian on the borders of Russia, stating you're pro-Russian is far more likely a desire for a closer relationship, easier trade, easier travel between the two, sharing common goals, and less pointless squabbles between politicians. Not a desire for tanks to destroy your house and having to abandon your village to avoid being shelled as part of a land grab nobody asked for.

 

[Yew]

Oh, and it's "Ukraine", not "the Ukraine".

(Also, its just Ukraine, not "the" Ukraine)

For the umpteenth time it's 'Ukraine'. Use of the definite article is an absolute throwback to when Ukraine was part of the USSR and I'm certain you're well aware of that.

May I suggest that we start talking about something more interesting than grammatical trivialities?

For reference, it's Deutschland, not Germany.

 

[357]

May I suggest that we start talking about something more interesting than grammatical trivialities?

For reference, it's Deutschland, not Germany.

The difference between Ukraine and Germany, is that the people who use "The" generally are those undermining the legitimacy of Ukraine and their right to exist, normally pro-ruzzian.

 

[nlogax]

May I suggest that we start talking about something more interesting than grammatical trivialities?

No. The poster's continued use of 'the Ukraine' is the fluttering (red) flag at the heart of their opinion on this topic.

 

[najaB]

For reference, it's Deutschland, not Germany.

In German, yes. However, the English-language name of the country is Germany (see the UN list of member states).

 

[Broucek]

Should we just ignore the Trolls?

 

[gg1]

May I suggest that we start talking about something more interesting than grammatical trivialities?

For reference, it's Deutschland, not Germany.

The choice around whether to use Deutschland or Germany is a poor comparison.

A stubborn refusal to drop the definitive article from Ukraine is far more comparable to insisting on referring to Zimbabwe as Rhodesia.

 

[Killingworth]

The choice around whether to use Deutschland or Germany is a poor comparison.

A stubborn refusal to drop the definitive article from Ukraine is far more comparable to insisting on referring to Zimbabwe as Rhodesia.

This is how wars start!

 

[zero]

The choice around whether to use Deutschland or Germany is a poor comparison.

A stubborn refusal to drop the definitive article from Ukraine is far more comparable to insisting on referring to Zimbabwe as Rhodesia.

Or The Zimbabwe and The Germany...

 

[gg1]

This is how wars start!

No, a nation invading one of the neighbours is how wars generally start.

Or The Zimbabwe and The Germany...

Aside from the minor point that Germany and Zimbabwe have never been referred to by those names.

 

[najaB]

Aside from the minor point that Germany and Zimbabwe have never been referred to by those names.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe that "The Ukraine" has ever been the proper name for the country. Prior to 1922 it was Ukraine, then it was the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, and then it has been Ukraine since 1991. Use of the definite article has only ever been correct to refer to it as a region of Russia/the Russian Empire which included the territory of Ukraine.

 

[Cross City]

I could be wrong, but I don't believe that "The Ukraine" has ever been the proper name for the country. Prior to 1922 it was Ukraine, then it was the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, and then it has been Ukraine since 1991. Use of the definite article has only ever been correct to refer to it as a region of Russia/the Russian Empire which included the territory of Ukraine.

A literal translation of Ukraine is 'borderlands'.

Affixing 'The' at the start is talking in an imperialistic tone from the perspective of Russia as it suggests possession of Ukraine up to its furthest west point.

 

[gg1]

I could be wrong, but I don't believe that "The Ukraine" has ever been the proper name for the country. Prior to 1922 it was Ukraine, then it was the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, and then it has been Ukraine since 1991. Use of the definite article has only ever been correct to refer to it as a region of Russia/the Russian Empire which included the territory of Ukraine.

Yes, I think it's more a of colloquialism than an official name, but a colloquialism with negative overtones.

 

[Killingworth]

Zelensky is getting a lot of help from a variety of intelligence sources. He knows he has to watch his back and warned of Russian desire to subvert Moldova. Today the Moldovan government has fallen. Putin and his crew will try to undermine and bully where they can.

Times story at : https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...jets-ukraine-war-macron-scholz-2023-60mzj8smc

The government of Moldova collapsed this morning, with the pro-western prime minister resigning a day after President Zelensky warned of President Putin’s plans to destroy democracy in the country that borders Ukraine.

It came after Russia’s latest attacks on Ukraine, launched from the Black Sea, sent two missiles through Moldovan airspace, officials said today.

Natalia Gavrilita, a staunch backer of Kyiv’s fight against Russia, said that a series of crises had gripped the small nation since Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. She told reporters that the “time has come for me to announce my resignation” and said no one expected that her government, elected in the summer of 2021, “would have to manage so many crises caused by Russian aggression in Ukraine”.

Her premiership was marked by problems including an energy crisis, soaring inflation and missiles from the war in neighbouring Ukraine crossing its skies.

Maia Sandu, the Moldovan president, said she would hold consultations with parliamentary factions on nominating a new prime minister. “In spite of unprecedented challenges, the country was governed responsibly, with a lot of attention and dedicated work. We have stability, peace and development — where others wanted war and bankruptcy,” Sandu wrote on Facebook.

 

[najaB]

Zelensky is getting a lot of help from a variety of intelligence sources. He knows he has to watch his back and warned of Russian desire to subvert Moldova. Today the Moldovan government has fallen. Putin and his crew will try to undermine and bully where they can.

The hopeful thing here is that it seems that the transition to the new government will be orderly. I have my fingers crossed that it turns out that way, as the last thing the region needs is more chaos.

Fortunately Russia only has (or had) around 1,500 troops in Transnistria so it's unlikely that they'll move to 'protect their people'.