Russia invades Ukraine

[Cowley]

In war full of bad deaths, that's an especially bad death.

A friend of mine’s father was out somewhere near Australia with the RAF in the 1950s when they were doing the nuclear tests. Her siblings were both born with disabilities and her father died of cancer at quite a young age.
She’s not able to have children but even if she could she said it just wouldn’t be wise because the genetic damage is in her somewhere and there’s a high likelihood that it would be passed on.
So that’s it for any lineage following on from her father. That family line will have to stop with her and her brothers.

This is the reality facing those soldiers that were sent into that area now…

 

[Loppylugs]

Absolutely. The Russian Army has always seemingly treated its soldiers with contempt, often not even thinly disguised. But this feels a like a whole other level even by their low standards.

Is this not the same contempt with which Russian soldiers treat Ukrainian civilians ? Shooting fleeing civilians seemingly for fun, leaving them with hands tied and shooting them in the head ? Shooting a woman in the legs and wrecking her life ? Ripping families apart with their indiscriminate rockets ?
I have no sympathy for any Russian soldier other than they do their dirty work for a hideous lying dictator. Do the decent thing, turn round, go home and become heroes by blasting this abomination of a creature out of existence.

 

[AlterEgo]

Has any media outlet has been able to independently verify exactly what happened in Bucha yet?

 

[Yew]

Absolutely. The Russian Army has always seemingly treated its soldiers with contempt, often not even thinly disguised. But this feels a like a whole other level even by their low standards.

It does seem like Putin is trying to do his best to imitate the Tzars.

 

[Typhoon]

I just watched an interview with the head of the Ukrainian team at Chernobyl. He said that it appeared that many of the soldiers sent to capture the plant had no idea at all about the 1986 accident. They thought that the respirators were an anti-Covid measure.

I know the role of the soldier is to be sent into harm's way but at least let them know what form that harm is going to take.

I reckon there is a fair chance they are not the battle hardened veterans, but conscripts who are just $hit scared of anything that moves.

Is this not the same contempt with which Russian soldiers treat Ukrainian civilians ? Shooting fleeing civilians seemingly for fun, leaving them with hands tied and shooting them in the head ? Shooting a woman in the legs and wrecking her life ? Ripping families apart with their indiscriminate rockets ?
I have no sympathy for any Russian soldier other than they do their dirty work for a hideous lying dictator. Do the decent thing, turn round, go home and become heroes by blasting this abomination of a creature out of existence.

I'm not certain that I would want to tar all Russian soldiers with the same brush. True, any who carry out some of the atrocities given in your first paragraph deserve to be tried for war crimes but I reckon that there are a fair few who are fighting for their lives. Ukrainians can't tell an OK Ruskie from an evil one. As far as turning around and going home, I think there is a fair chance they will be shot for desertion long before they got within 100 miles of Putin. If enough of them want to make a difference they might want to ensure that their commanding officer has an accident. If that starts to happen, then the army leadership might get the message. It does however run the risk of tired, hungry, desperate soldiers scouring the Ukrainian countryside.

 

[najaB]

If enough of them want to make a difference they might want to ensure that their commanding officer has an accident. If that starts to happen, then the army leadership might get the message.

I believe one colonel recently had an accident with a tank running him over.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It does however run the risk of tired, hungry, desperate soldiers scouring the Ukrainian countryside.

Run the risk? That's already happening and has been since the first week of the invasion. Reports of Russian soldiers looting both shops and homes just for basic food supplies have been widespread.

 

[DarloRich]

I wonder what excuses our Putin fan boy posters will offer up to deflect from the murder of civillians in Bucha? Bet they were fascist eh?

You need to have a good hard look in the mirror. It is disgusting and sickening and you should ask why you assoicate with it.

Edit: i also notice stop the (american) war are very silent about this behaviour. No way to blame the yanks?

 

[Typhoon]

I believe one colonel recently had an accident with a tank running him over.

I believe so, I'm afraid my idea wasn't original!

Run the risk? That's already happening and has been since the first week of the invasion. Reports of Russian soldiers looting both shops and homes just for basic food supplies have been widespread.

True, but it could get a lot worse. Troops under a commander usually maintain some form of discipline and looting is sometimes consider a spoil of war. Leaderless they could go a lot further.

 

[DarloRich]

Without going down the military vehicle nerd hole too far......Military nerding over.

Worth noting that in the event of stalemate or being pushed back soviet doctrine was to use "tactical" nukes to punch a hole in nato lines and then flood vast numbers of afv through

 

[P Binnersley]

Worth noting that in the event of stalemate or being pushed back soviet doctrine was to use "tactical" nukes to punch a hole in nato lines and then flood vast numbers of afv through

Which would get 50 miles and run out of fuel (if they have any left).

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I must admit to being astonished that there are people in 2022 who haven’t heard of the Chernobyl 1986 accident. Even in Russia surely it has become common knowledge between the fall of Communism, and more recent closing / censorship of society?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I must admit to being astonished that there are people in 2022 who haven’t heard of the Chernobyl 1986 accident. Even in Russia surely it has become common knowledge between the fall of Communism, and more recent closing / censorship of society?

Apparently not. I imagine that has something to do with, the Soviets were keen to cover it up and so never really publicised it to their own people at the time. And then I guess for the few years when Russia did have a free press, maybe there wasn't any particular reason for Chernobyl to come up in the news much - it was, after all by then a historical event in what had become a foreign country.

 

[takno]

I must admit to being astonished that there are people in 2022 who haven’t heard of the Chernobyl 1986 accident. Even in Russia surely it has become common knowledge between the fall of Communism, and more recent closing / censorship of society?

I imagine there's probably quite a lot of people in Britain who don't know much about it. If you're young and not particularly curious then it's not exactly current news. Unless you go into nuclear engineering, or find yourself being driven directly into the exclusion zone by an insane military leadership, then there's very little reason it should have any impact on your life at all.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I can't help thinking back to the speech Putin made a couple of years ago about (I can't recall the details so this is approximate) how in his view the age of liberal societies was over because liberal democracy was such a flawed ideology. The events of the last month have surely proved that completely wrong, and how much more successful liberal democracy can be compared to authoritarianism: Almost every failing of the Russian invasion can be traced back in some way to the lack of democracy in Russia: From the corruption that must have siphoned off so much money that was supposed to be spent on the Russian military, to poor/authoritarian treatment of ordinary soldiers leading to their lack of motivation, to the suppression of a free press and lack of free speech which has evidently lead directly to the leadership being so poorly informed that they had no idea how the Ukrainians would react to their war - and to the military commanders being apparently completely unaware of the dangers of operating around Chernobyl.

Looks to me like liberal democracy and free speech win hands down over authoritarianism when it comes to creating a successful society that has the information to mount an effective campaign.

 

[brad465]

I imagine there's probably quite a lot of people in Britain who don't know much about it. If you're young and not particularly curious then it's not exactly current news. Unless you go into nuclear engineering, or find yourself being driven directly into the exclusion zone by an insane military leadership, then there's very little reason it should have any impact on your life at all.

Or if you haven't watched Top Gear

On a more serious note, Chernobyl did become relevant again in 2011 when Fukushima happened, as, while not as severe, the latter led to comparisons to Chernobyl. The 2011 incident also influenced Germany under Merkel adopting the now clearly short sighted policy of phasing out all their nuclear power.

I can't help thinking back to the speech Putin made a couple of years ago about (I can't recall the details so this is approximate) how in his view the age of liberal societies was over because liberal democracy was such a flawed ideology. The events of the last month have surely proved that completely wrong, and how much more successful liberal democracy can be compared to authoritarianism: Almost every failing of the Russian invasion can be traced back in some way to the lack of democracy in Russia: From the corruption that must have siphoned off so much money that was supposed to be spent on the Russian military, to poor/authoritarian treatment of ordinary soldiers leading to their lack of motivation, to the suppression of a free press and lack of free speech which has evidently lead directly to the leadership being so poorly informed that they had no idea how the Ukrainians would react to their war - and to the military commanders being apparently completely unaware of the dangers of operating around Chernobyl.

Looks to me like liberal democracy and free speech win hands down over authoritarianism when it comes to creating a successful society that has the information to mount an effective campaign.

I think this is the speech in question, which was an exclusive interview with the Financial Times:

Vladimir Putin says liberalism has ‘become obsolete’

In an exclusive interview with the FT, the Russian president trumpets growth of national populism

on.ft.com

This interview was originally published on 27 June 2019. Vladimir Putin has trumpeted the growth of national populist movements in Europe and America, crowing that liberalism is spent as an ideological force.

Continued

 

[AlterEgo]

Orban has convincingly won the Hungarian election. It will be interesting to see if and how his ambiguous relationship with Putin changes.

 

[brad465]

Orban has convincingly won the Hungarian election. It will be interesting to see if and how his ambiguous relationship with Putin changes.

I think if Orban's become somewhat reliant on Putin (Putin has certainly benefitted from Orban being where he is), then should Putin hopefully run out of road relatively soon, Orban may find himself out in the cold.

 

[yorksrob]

I imagine there's probably quite a lot of people in Britain who don't know much about it. If you're young and not particularly curious then it's not exactly current news. Unless you go into nuclear engineering, or find yourself being driven directly into the exclusion zone by an insane military leadership, then there's very little reason it should have any impact on your life at all.

I don't know. Even for someone not interested in history, we've had numerous programmes and articules visiting Pripyat to see nature taking over, documentaries about the disaster, documentaries about the new sarcophagus, a well received and thoroughly reviewed TV drama on the subject.

One would have had to have been growing up under a rock not to have heard of it over here.

 

[JonasB]

I don't know. Even for someone not interested in history, we've had numerous programmes and articules visiting Pripyat to see nature taking over, documentaries about the disaster, documentaries about the new sarcophagus, a well received and thoroughly reviewed TV drama on the subject.

One would have had to have been growing up under a rock not to have heard of it over here.

But is it mentioned in Russia? I wouldn't be surprised if Putin don't want Russians to learn about Soviet mistakes.

 

[yorksrob]

But is it mentioned in Russia? I wouldn't be surprised if Putin don't want Russians to learn about Soviet mistakes.

Well, exactly. In a normal European society I believe it would have been virtually impossible for someone to reach adulthood without having heard of the Chernobyl disaster. Russia isn't a normal European society.

 

[Yew]

I imagine there's probably quite a lot of people in Britain who don't know much about it. If you're young and not particularly curious then it's not exactly current news. Unless you go into nuclear engineering, or find yourself being driven directly into the exclusion zone by an insane military leadership, then there's very little reason it should have any impact on your life at all.

I'm probably more familiar with the subject than most, Indeed I would love to go on a tour of the town and power plant, and my understanding was that for limited times the exclusion zone was basically safe.

 

[Loppylugs]

Orban has convincingly won the Hungarian election. It will be interesting to see if and how his ambiguous relationship with Putin changes.

Not a good result at all. Seemingly the vast majority of Hungarians have forgotten the events in their country in 1956.

 

[Yew]

From the corruption that must have siphoned off so much money that was supposed to be spent on the Russian military, to poor/authoritarian treatment of ordinary soldiers leading to their lack of motivation, to the suppression of a free press and lack of free speech which has evidently lead directly to the leadership being so poorly informed that they had no idea how the Ukrainians would react to their war - and to the military commanders being apparently completely unaware of the dangers of operating around Chernobyl.

Indeed, despite the corruption here, it always seems that totalitarian systems are subject to it in more extreme ways; ever since the emperors of late Rome increased the pay and pandered to the Pretorian guards, whilst the Rhine frontier fell from undermanning and underinvestment.

 

[Giugiaro]

Germany now seems to support the ban of Russian gas imports in light of the atrocities found in Bucha and surrounding areas.

It's best for Europe, and especially Germany, to completely pull the plug on Russian fossil fuel imports as soon as possible.
The economy is going to be screwed either we do it first, or Putin does it for us. So it's better to take the initiative as to avoid having Putin taking the laurels.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm probably more familiar with the subject than most, Indeed I would love to go on a tour of the town and power plant, and my understanding was that for limited times the exclusion zone was basically safe.

That certainly tallies with my understanding. Heck in some areas you don't even need to be there for a limited time as the radiation levels are no different to anywhere else. But you do need to be careful as there are areas where the radiation is higher than would be wise to be exposed to for more than a short period of time. You also need to be careful to avoid eating or drinking things which might have become contaminated (for instance from dirt or dust). Try to avoid inhaling that same dust as well. Effectively just take basic precautions to avoid either exposing yourself to higher levels of radiation or to avoid getting radioactive material inside your body. Would I want to live in Pripyat? No, but I'd have no qualms with visiting it a day or two. Indeed whilst Pripyat is abandoned there are still villages within the Exclusion Zone in which people have lived for decades without seemingly ill effect (at least from the radiation).

 

[AlterEgo]

Germany now seems to support the ban of Russian gas imports in light of the atrocities found in Bucha and surrounding areas.

Oh, it's taken seeing mass executions to do this, and not the wholesale shelling and laying siege to entire cities?

Germany can do one. They have been warned for years about their energy policy, but no, no, Germany knew better. Wouldn't even let the RAF fly weapons over their airspace to the Ukrainians to defend themselves.

 

[tommy2215]

Oh, it's taken seeing mass executions to do this, and not the wholesale shelling and laying siege to entire cities?

Germany can do one. They have been warned for years about their energy policy, but no, no, Germany knew better. Wouldn't even let the RAF fly weapons over their airspace to the Ukrainians to defend themselves.

Zelensky took a very brutal swipe at Angela Merkel (and Sarkozy) for exactly that
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1510711038207008783

 

[brad465]

Oh, it's taken seeing mass executions to do this, and not the wholesale shelling and laying siege to entire cities?

Germany can do one. They have been warned for years about their energy policy, but no, no, Germany knew better. Wouldn't even let the RAF fly weapons over their airspace to the Ukrainians to defend themselves.

A positive legacy from Merkel should be well and truly shattered, she was essentially the successor face of neoliberalism, after its founders Thatcher and Reagan, but dug herself too far down the hole of believing trade encourages peace.

 

[Doppelganger]

Oh, it's taken seeing mass executions to do this, and not the wholesale shelling and laying siege to entire cities?

Germany can do one. They have been warned for years about their energy policy, but no, no, Germany knew better. Wouldn't even let the RAF fly weapons over their airspace to the Ukrainians to defend themselves.

Imagine if Norway and Qatar went rogue (not difficult to imagine with Qatar) and the UK said no more gas from those places. It isn't as simple as pressing a button and suddenly you get gas from another source you know?

The gas network across Europe is very complex, but is for the most part designed to shift gas from east to west, especially across Central Europe.

Germany have since announced a new LNG terminal is to be built and that they have binned Nord Stream 2, so I think criticism of Germany is a little unfair.