Russia invades Ukraine

[bspahh]

We could equally be discussing events of 1914 on the lead up to the First World War and how events at the end lead to the Second World War.

You could in a new thread, but not on one titled "Russia Invades Ukraine".

 

[Annetts key]

Proxy wars are very much part of the issue. Russia is the heir to the Soviet Union. NATO or constituent countries have been involved in all sorts of wars.

Checking on a history web site revealed the following:

Bosnia - Operation Deliberate Foce
Kosovo - Operation Allied Force
Libya
Afghanistan

None of these are Russian territory. Or even former U.S.S.R. territory.

Bosnia was part of the former Yugoslavia. As was Kosovo. Yugoslavia was never part of the U.S.S.R.

Libya is in North Africa. Western/N.A.T.O. military operations were carried out after the UN Security Council passed Resolution 1973.

Afghanistan - I agree this was and is a mess. But keep in mind that the Soviet Union decided to get involved. Even sending an army to invade it. The Soviet Union could have stayed out of it if they wanted.

So back to my question, when has a western country or N.A.T.O. invaded Russia or the Soviet Union? The answer is they have not.

This war has never been about Russia or Putin being afraid of being invaded by N.A.T.O.

Yes, he hates democracies, free speech and free media. He’s a control freak. That’s why he hates the Ukrainian government. And as I said earlier, he wants territory.

 

[ainsworth74]

@John Luxton as you have studiously ignored the below and the multiple times I raised it in my own posts I assume that you do not agree that the simplest, quickest and easiest way for the rape, murder and destruction of Ukraine and Ukrainians to cease would be for Russia to withdraw? You've gone on at length about how "there are shades of grey" and how "we should see what caused it to try and avoid it in the future" (though most of your comments paint Ukraine and NATO as the problem rather than, you know, the country which has invaded Ukraine but that's by the by) but you seem unable to acknowledge the easiest way of making it stop. Well, other than Ukraine simply withdrawing from its own territory which you also suggested several times. Why not suggest that Russia should withdraw from the sovereign country it has invaded?

Do you agree then that the simplest, quickest and easiest way to stop it would be for Putin to withdraw all Russian troops from Ukrainian territory?

 

[John Luxton]

@John Luxton as you have studiously ignored the below and the multiple times I raised it in my own posts I assume that you do not agree that the simplest, quickest and easiest way for the rape, murder and destruction of Ukraine and Ukrainians to cease would be for Russia to withdraw? You've gone on at length about how "there are shades of grey" and how "we should see what caused it to try and avoid it in the future" (though most of your comments paint Ukraine and NATO as the problem rather than, you know, the country which has invaded Ukraine but that's by the by) but you seem unable to acknowledge the easiest way of making it stop. Well, other than Ukraine simply withdrawing from its own territory which you also suggested several times. Why not suggest that Russia should withdraw from the sovereign country it has invaded?

I wasn't intending to comment further on this but I will for a final time.

Generally the nature of my comments have regarded how we have reached this situation in the first place and what gave Russia excuses to invade.

The war needs to stop and stop now I presume we are in 100% agreement on this?

Whatever that involves and that could include a Russian withdrawal so be it.

I have never once said or implied Russia should be there.

I am not advocating Russia should bomb the country into submission.

I have never once said I support Russia's actions.

I have never said what a good guy Putin is except express a preference to him over Kim Jung Un. Putin is scheming and calculating - "Rocketman Kim" just mad and highly unpredictable. I can't see many having a different opinion.

Typical of discussions such as this we end up with people reading things that are not there because they just go along with the popular hue and cry. I think the reactions to my posts have proved this 100%.

Just to draw a line under this I will state that RUSSIA SHOULD WITHDRAW and reparations paid.

Though I would expect us to lift sanctions in return - we do need their fuel!

But please reflect on how some people have reacted including yourself and come to the wrong conclusions about what I have said.

It has been an interesting experience that just confirms my belief that so many people get wrapped up in a popular / topical issue that they do not appreciate other people may wish to see things differently.
Covid was another good example.

Many years ago a family member told me I could start an argument in an empty room!

That is my final comment on this topic. But I may very well run up the down escalator on contentious topics in the future and play devil's advocate!

Just my nature I am afraid!

 

[takno]

I wasn't intending to comment further on this but I will for a final time.

Generally the nature of my comments have regarded how we have reached this situation in the first place and what gave Russia excuses to invade.

The war needs to stop and stop now I presume we are in 100% agreement on this?

Whatever that involves and that could include a Russian withdrawal so be it.

I have never once said or implied Russia should be there.

I am not advocating Russia should bomb the country into submission.

I have never once said I support Russia's actions.

I have never said what a good guy Putin is except express a preference to him over Kim Jung Un. Putin is scheming and calculating - "Rocketman Kim" just mad and highly unpredictable. I can't see many having a different opinion.

Typical of discussions such as this we end up with people reading things that are not there because they just go along with the popular hue and cry. I think the reactions to my posts have proved this 100%.

Just to draw a line under this I will state that RUSSIA SHOULD WITHDRAW and reparations paid.

Though I would expect us to lift sanctions in return - we do need their fuel!

But please reflect on how some people have reacted including yourself and come to the wrong conclusions about what I have said.

It has been an interesting experience that just confirms my belief that so many people get wrapped up in a popular / topical issue that they do not appreciate other people may wish to see things differently.
Covid was another good example.

Many years ago a family member told me I could start an argument in an empty room!

That is my final comment on this topic. But I may very well run up the down escalator on contentious topics in the future and play devil's advocate!

Just my nature I am afraid!

Sad really to see somebody who claims to be a grown man arguing like a 7 year old boy, but whatever. I imagine most people will just add you to their block list and so the problem will ultimately go away

 

[tommy2215]

Typical of discussions such as this we end up with people reading things that are not there because they just go along with the popular hue and cry. I think the reactions to my posts have proved this 100%.

But please reflect on how some people have reacted including yourself and come to the wrong conclusions about what I have said.

It has been an interesting experience that just confirms my belief that so many people get wrapped up in a popular / topical issue that they do not appreciate other people may wish to see things differently.

Many years ago a family member told me I could start an argument in an empty room!

That is my final comment on this topic. But I may very well run up the down escalator on contentious topics in the future and play devil's advocate!

Is this a joke? Playing victim when you've refused to time and again and even now refuse to criticise Putin's slaughter of civilians? I'd love to know what alternative viewpoint you have on that then. But at least at the end there you admitted you are provocative on purpose.

 

[gingerheid]

[snip]
Generally the nature of my comments have regarded how we have reached this situation in the first place and what gave Russia excuses to invade.
[snip]
But please reflect on how some people have reacted including yourself and come to the wrong conclusions about what I have said.
[snip]

There are a range of topics about which the "neutrality" you sought to represent doesn't exist.

Entering into a discussion about whether a country that elected a Jew as president brought invasion upon itself through Nazism is one of them. It's ridiculous and pathetic and it will always get you the reactions it deserves.

Many years ago a family member told me I could start an argument in an empty room!

I'm afraid they were right.

 

[najaB]

Though I would expect us to lift sanctions in return - we do need their fuel!

We really don't. At least, we wouldn't if we had a sensible energy policy.

 

[jon0844]

Switzerland has always been a fairly wise country - perhaps that is why it is a fairly wealthy country?

Sit on the gate, be prepared to defend yourself if attacked, and generally don't meddle in the affairs of other countries.

Though I note this time they have compromised their position a little with Ukraine it certainly got them through World War II.

We should learn from that I think.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2022 ==


But views can change over 20 years to be fair?

We had a referendum in 2016 and many people argue that's it. The people voted and said they wanted to leave, so we can never ask again...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2022 ==

I am often willing to put my head above the parapet with contrary views on a range of subjects and had a field day with Covid, though it looks like on that topic with what is emerging my minority view might not have been that far off the mark.

I merely read that as an admission that you're simply trolling and likely don't even believe what you're writing. In a way, I hope that's true as some of what you've said is quite terrifying.

 

[Yew]

I have certainly not attacked Ukraine but suggested how perhaps things could have been done differently to avoid the present conflict.

I think the issue is that whilst the Azov battalion probably should have been disbanded, in the balance of probabilities Putin would have just either lied or found something else.

 

[Annetts key]

Are you including the Sea of Azov there ?
A land corridor to Transnistria has been suggested. There would be some logic to that.

Don’t they effectively already have control of nearly all of Ukraine’s coast off the Sea of Azov? The only significant part they may not have full control being the Port of Mariupol.

 

[najaB]

Just watched a video (linked below) in which it's claimed that the Ukrainians had help sinking the Moskva.

It's a lot longer than it needs to be, by in short the claim is that the US provided location information to Ukraine so that they could target the ship. Naturally the US has neither confirmed nor denied their involvment.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Just watched a video (linked below) in which it's claimed that the Ukrainians had help sinking the Moskva.

It's a lot longer than it needs to be, by in short the claim is that the US provided location information to Ukraine so that they could target the ship. Naturally the US has neither confirmed nor denied their involvment.

That wouldn't surprise me. I'm pretty sure a significant part of the help NATO countries have been giving Ukraine ever since the start of the war has consisted of sharing data about precisely where the Russian forces are, so the Ukrainians know where to direct their missiles/etc. I don't have any links to hand, but I certainly recall reading a few newspaper articles talking about the process.

 

[najaB]

That wouldn't surprise me. I'm pretty sure a significant part of the help NATO countries have been giving Ukraine ever since the start of the war has consisted of sharing data about precisely where the Russian forces are, so the Ukrainians know where to direct their missiles/etc. I don't have any links to hand, but I certainly recall reading a few newspaper articles talking about the process.

Oh, I'm 100% certain that's exactly what's been happening. But, naturally, NATO will neither confirm nor deny that any intelligence is being passed to the Ukranians.

 

[Ediswan]

It seems the rescue/salvage ship Kommuna has been sent to assist with recovering (bits of) Moskva. The oddity is that Kommuna is over 100 years old. It was originally part of the Imperial Russian Navy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_salvage_ship_Kommuna
http://www.hisutton.com/Russian-Navy-Moskva-Cruiser-Wreck.html

 

[Cloud Strife]

It's a lot longer than it needs to be, by in short the claim is that the US provided location information to Ukraine so that they could target the ship. Naturally the US has neither confirmed nor denied their involvment.

I don't think it's much of a secret that NATO has been passing all sorts of intelligence to Ukraine. It's what made the UAF forces so deadly around Kyiv, because they were able to ambush the RF almost at will.

There are now claims that so much Western equipment is coming into Ukraine that the UAF cannot even deploy it quickly enough. But, apart from this, the Americans are also sending the MLRS. This is a frightening piece of equipment from the Russian perspective, as it could be used to cause havoc in Crimea as well as in the other occupied territories.

The million dollar question for me is whether NATO can supply Ukraine with enough ammo for the heavy military hardware.

 

[johnnychips]

Sorry, what does MLRS stand for, and what does it do?

 

[najaB]

Sorry, what does MLRS stand for, and what does it do?

Multiple Launch Rocket System. Pretty much it's the NATO version of those rocket artillery systems that the Russians have been using to bombard Mariupol and other cities. They were originally intended to be used against troop formations and lightly armoured vehicle convoys, rather than civilian targets.

 

[REVUpminster]

Todays paper; German and French weapons are likely being used in the Ukraine by the Russians. £230m sold by the two countries defying EU sanctions since 2014. What is the point of the EU? we are better off out of it. Even the the German greens want to send heavy weaponry to Ukraine.
The cynics might say we are only doing it because it gives a real world test to our weapons.

 

[Doppelganger]

Todays paper; German and French weapons are likely being used in the Ukraine by the Russians. £230m sold by the two countries defying EU sanctions since 2014. What is the point of the EU? we are better off out of it. Even the the German greens want to send heavy weaponry to Ukraine.
The cynics might say we are only doing it because it gives a real world test to our weapons.

Do you mean 2 sovereign countries selling arms to questionable regimes?

Why don't you take a close look at where the UK have been selling arms while both in and out of the EU - you might find this a little more shocking.

 

[takno]

Todays paper; German and French weapons are likely being used in the Ukraine by the Russians. £230m sold by the two countries defying EU sanctions since 2014. What is the point of the EU? we are better off out of it. Even the the German greens want to send heavy weaponry to Ukraine.
The cynics might say we are only doing it because it gives a real world test to our weapons.

Got a link to "today's paper"?

 

[JamesT]

Got a link to "today's paper"?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-n...many-evaded-arms-embargo-sell-weapons-russia/ was the Telegraph’s story about it on Friday.

 

[REVUpminster]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-n...many-evaded-arms-embargo-sell-weapons-russia/ was the Telegraph’s story about it on Friday.

Also in todays Telegraph.

 

[najaB]

Also in todays Telegraph.

Does today's Telegraph also show that the UK is on the list of weapons sellers too?

 

[takno]

Also in todays Telegraph.

I could have guessed it was in telegraph I suppose from the unjustifiable anti-EU screed that accompanied it. I'll read about it when it's reported somewhere with less of an obvious axe to grind

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Does today's Telegraph also show that the UK is on the list of weapons sellers too?

Yes it does. Although should be pointed out that the numbers are much smaller for the UK and, if my reading of the article is correct, related to existing contracts to supply dual use stuff. France and Germany were unambiguously supplying actual weapons in apparently significant quantities. Hence the headline being about them

Not a good look for any of the countries though.

 

[Annetts key]

Here’s a list of countries that the U.K. has sold military weapons to: link
(I currently can’t quote this as it’s a table and I’m using a mobile device)

The problem with any political law is that vested interests deliberately ensure there are loopholes. Our British government are excellent at doing this with our own legislation.

The loopholes in the E.U. embargo are what allowed the sales of weapons to Russia.

The real question is do you think it is more or less likely that such loopholes would be allowed if the U.K. was still in the E.U.

As we are now outside the E.U. we have no say in any E.U. internal matters.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I could have guessed it was in telegraph I suppose from the unjustifiable anti-EU screed that accompanied it. I'll read about it when it's reported somewhere with less of an obvious axe to grind

I don't see anything anti-EU about the article. It simply headlines that France and Germany sold weapons to Russia, and the main text makes it clear that it's an EU report that revealed the fact and that they were taking advantage of a loophole in the EU arms embargo rules that is now closed. Further down the article it mentions other countries that sold arms but in vastly smaller quantities.

 

[takno]

I don't see anything anti-EU about the article. It simply headlines that France and Germany sold weapons to Russia, and the main text makes it clear that it's an EU report that revealed the fact and that they were taking advantage of a loophole in the EU arms embargo rules that is now closed. Further down the article it mentions other countries that sold arms but in vastly smaller quantities.

Ah, okay. The original poster added the excitable anti-EU commentary themselves then. The Germans really aren't painting themselves in glory over any aspect of their delusional Russia policy though.

 

[BananaRepublic]

France selling arms and wanting to do more deals with Russia is not exactly news or a revelation.
When Macron made his trip to Moscow prior to the invasion, top of his agenda was trying to salvage the trade relationship with Putin and protect some impending large military contracts.
Even the France24 news channel was reporting this, as was Le Monde.