Russia invades Ukraine

[nw1]

It could and SHOULD have been avoided as much as Putin should not have done what he did perhaps Zalensky had not carried on making noises about joining NATO and ceding some territory it could have been avoided?

We conveniently forget that the Ukraine is home to the the openly Nazi paramilitary organization the Azov Battalion - this played right into Putin's hands and gave him the opportunity to justify his "special military operation".

There are far-right extremists everywhere. The UK and France, to give two close examples. Doesn't mean Putin has the right to invade the UK, or France!

That's just being used as an excuse and the real Nazi is, of course, Putin.

 

[REVUpminster]

Argentine is the geographical term for the area. In the 19th century Argentina was quite small until it began the bloody conquest of Patagonia and Chilie did the same.

Also if you put USA on wikipedia some soon corrects it to US. United States is the political name.

 

[John Luxton]

There are far-right extremists everywhere. The UK and France, to give two close examples. Doesn't mean Putin has the right to invade the UK, or France!

That's just being used as an excuse and the real Nazi is, of course, Putin.

Agreed whilst we do have extremists here we have not permitted paramilitary political organisations since the passing of the 1936 Public Order Act aimed at Sir Oswald Mosely's Blackshirts. We also proactively deal with such extremists therefore, I see quite a difference.

 

[najaB]

We also proactively deal with such extremists therefore, I see quite a difference.

Is it your contention that existence of the Azov Brigade is a justification for Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

 

[John Luxton]

Is it your contention that existence of the Azov Brigade is a justification for Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

Putin used the presence of "Nazis" in Ukraine as one of his reasons. Their existence is a fact and was being reported on well before the conflict started.

If they had not existed he could not have used that argument. As soon as anyone uses the word "Nazi" it stirs up emotions - therefore their existence did not serve to diffuse the situation did it?

 

[Annetts key]

NATO or some of its constituent members have conducted wars against Russia and previously the Soviet Union by proxy - it is very much happening again.

I did not ask about so called proxy wars. Or about the Soviet Union.

So can you answer my question please.

If you do want to talk about so called proxy wars, then Russia is just as bad as any other country. Like for example in the so called Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics.

 

[Falcon1200]

With Ukraine this isn't a clear cut case of one sovereign nation attacking another

Excuse me ? It could hardly be a more clear cut case of one sovereign nation attacking another.

I sometimes wonder what the outcome would have been if we had not entered conflict with the Axis powers until a later date.

Would the war have been shorter? Less destructive - but the outcome the same?

Less destructive ? Possibly not to the Jewish, Romany, homosexual or disabled populations of mainland Europe, of whom precious few would lived through it. And fighting on one front rather than two would have given the Nazis a massive boost for operation Barbarossa.

 

[najaB]

Putin used the presence of "Nazis" in Ukraine as one of his reasons. Their existence is a fact and was being reported on well before the conflict started.

If they had not existed he could not have used that argument. As soon as anyone uses the word "Nazi" it stirs up emotions - therefore their existence did not serve to diffuse the situation did it?

I didn't ask what Putin used as an excuse. I'll ask again: is it your contention that the existence of the Azov Brigade is justification for the Russian invasion of Ukraine?

 

[Annetts key]

Putin used the presence of "Nazis" in Ukraine as one of his reasons. Their existence is a fact and was being reported on well before the conflict started.

If they had not existed he could not have used that argument. As soon as anyone uses the word "Nazi" it stirs up emotions - therefore their existence did not serve to diffuse the situation did it?

There’s Nazis in this country (U.K.) and many other countries. So it’s alright with you for Putin to attack this country and any other where there are allegations of Nazis?

In case you have not noticed, Putin does not care what the situation is in the real world. Even if there was no allegations of Nazis in Ukraine, he would just lie and attack anyway. It’s just an excuse.

What Putin wants is not actually known. However, it’s likely to be one or more of these reasons:

• Overthrow the Ukrainian government.
• Acquisition of territory.
• Acquisition of resources.

Including Ukrainian Black Sea ports and a land corridor to Crimea.

 

[John Luxton]

I did not ask about so called proxy wars. Or about the Soviet Union.

So can you answer my question please.

If you do want to talk about so called proxy wars, then Russia is just as bad as any other country. Like for example in the so called Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics.

Proxy wars are very much part of the issue. Russia is the heir to the Soviet Union. NATO or constituent countries have been involved in all sorts of wars.

Checking on a history web site revealed the following:

Bosnia - Operation Deliberate Foce
Kosovo - Operation Allied Force
Libya
Afghanistan

How many times has the USA intervened sometime back up by the UK.

 

[gingerheid]

Advice: No matter how many times anyone tries to use this thread to be a Putin apologist, they look pathetic every single time.

It's indefensible. Don't try.

 

[John Luxton]

In case you have not noticed, Putin does not care what the situation is in the real world. Even if there was no allegations of Nazis in Ukraine, he would just lie and attack anyway. It’s just an excuse.

But one should not give anyone any excuse in particular if the issue is in a known potential flash point.

 

[gingerheid]

When did a despicable moron thug that wanted to start a fight ever fail to find a "reason".

Just give up. There's no defence, and no justification. Stop trying.

 

[Doppelganger]

But one should not give anyone any excuse in particular if the issue is in a known potential flash point.

But if it isn't allegations of Nazism, it'll be something else.

Despite your protestations of not being pro-Putin, you are doing a brilliant job of playing devil's advocate.

 

[Ediswan]

Including Ukrainian Black Sea ports and a land corridor to Crimea.

Are you including the Sea of Azov there ?
A land corridor to Transnistria has been suggested. There would be some logic to that.

 

[John Luxton]

Advice: No matter how many times anyone tries to use this thread to be a Putin apologist, they look pathetic every single time.

It's indefensible. Don't try.

Well I don't know if that comment is aimed at me - but I presume it is.

I am just taking a slightly different angle as originally said - trying to remain neutral.

As with many controversial topics I often I like to stop before I go along with the "vox populi of social media and have a habit of running up the down escalator at times.

Sometimes I will agree with popular sentiment but not always.

I am certainly not apologizing for Putin but neither am I cheering for Zalensky

I would rather it all stop now as I am sure we all would.

Many recent wars have been in dusty far away places somewhat divorced from Europe by distance.

Apart from the Balkan conflicts of the 1990s we have not seen European cities subjected to attack other than by lone wolf terrorists.

It is rather scary and I think that discussion as to how this situation was reached and how the death and destruction could have been avoided is very important.

 

[najaB]

I would rather it all stop now as I am sure we all would.

Do you agree then that the simplest, quickest and easiest way to stop it would be for Putin to withdraw all Russian troops from Ukrainian territory?

 

[Strathclyder]

In case you have not noticed, Putin does not care what the situation is in the real world. Even if there was no allegations of Nazis in Ukraine, he would just lie and attack anyway. It’s just an excuse.

Precisely. If it wasn't allegations of Nazis, it'd just be something else.

 

[John Luxton]

But if it isn't allegations of Nazism, it'll be something else.

Despite your protestations of not being pro-Putin, you are doing a brilliant job of playing devil's advocate.

Could well be something else - but we all know what a hornet's storm banding the word Nazi around can do. Quite often it is badly misused but there appears to be enough evidence predating this conflict posted online and in the British media to give credence to it.

Sometimes I do like to play devil's advocate rather than just go along with popular opinion - always been like that. There is too much of a trend these days to virtue signal / be seen to be saying the right thing - but do the people that do this always believe in what they are saying or is it just done to be with the "in crowd" and avoid public censure?

I am often willing to put my head above the parapet with contrary views on a range of subjects and had a field day with Covid, though it looks like on that topic with what is emerging my minority view might not have been that far off the mark.

 

[gingerheid]

Sometimes I do like to play devil's advocate rather than just go along with popular opinion - always been like that. There is too much of a trend these days to virtue signal / be seen to be saying the right thing - but do the people that do this always believe in what they are saying or is it just done to be with the "in crowd" and avoid public censure?

Actually, most people genuinely believe that evil is wrong and shouldn't be excused / defended / whatabouted.

 

[AlterEgo]

Whatever the morals of Switzerland other nations never seem to question their approach.

Yes they do. Often. The Swiss are known for brokering and financing war - even among their own nations - it has been a strategy of theirs since the 1700s. The fact they finance *everyone's* filth is why they get wealthy.

If they were as ethically bad as you suggest perhaps they too would have been subjected to pressure to conform to "western values"?

"I have suggested the British model themselves on the Swiss in WWII, because that seems sensible. Financing the Nazis and concealing the assets of Holocaust victims doesn't seem too bad. I think...I will push back on this point."

Really?

With regard to financing fascism back in the 1930s

And the 40s? And up until 1945?

It took a few years before the atrocities of the Nazi interpretation of fascism became known. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I am sure you will use the "benefit of hindsight" in a decade or so about the Ukraine War.

Everyone else can see what you are doing.

One has to remember many in the UK at the time supported fascism and that included some well known newspapers and members of the establishment.

Yes, and that was bad too John. Fortunately apologists for fascism in 2022 are quite rare, which makes spotting one quite easy.

 

[John Luxton]

Actually, most people genuinely believe that evil is wrong and shouldn't be excused / defended / whatabouted.

100% I have not once defended Putin all I have failed to do perhaps is heap praise on Zalensky.

Have I once said Putin should have done this?

I can't see any problem though discussing why a situation has come to exist and how perhaps it could have been avoided, perhaps if anything to learn lessons for the future.

 

[AlterEgo]

Putin used the presence of "Nazis" in Ukraine as one of his reasons. Their existence is a fact and was being reported on well before the conflict started.

If they had not existed he could not have used that argument. As soon as anyone uses the word "Nazi" it stirs up emotions - therefore their existence did not serve to diffuse the situation did it?

Certainly it did not, and its presence in the armed forces was deeply unwise, but it still did not form a casus belli.

 

[tommy2215]

I am just taking a slightly different angle as originally said - trying to remain neutral.

As with many controversial topics I often I like to stop before I go along with the "vox populi of social media and have a habit of running up the down escalator at times.

Sometimes I will agree with popular sentiment but not always.

I am certainly not apologizing for Putin but neither am I cheering for Zalensky

I would rather it all stop now as I am sure we all would.

Many recent wars have been in dusty far away places somewhat divorced from Europe by distance.

Apart from the Balkan conflicts of the 1990s we have not seen European cities subjected to attack other than by lone wolf terrorists.

It is rather scary and I think that discussion as to how this situation was reached and how the death and destruction could have been avoided is very important.

Russia has invaded a sovereign country and is slaughtering innocent civilians. What is there to be neutral about? Its like saying you are neutral on the Dunblane massacre or Nazi Germany's invasion of Poland!

You have consistently refused to criticize Putin or the invasion but you have attacked Ukraine and NATO several times. No matter how much you try and mask it, we can all see you are pro-Putin.

 

[John Luxton]

Certainly it did not, and its presence in the armed forces was deeply unwise, but it still did not form a casus belli.

Exactly VERY unwise. But it provided an excuse - never deliver to an opponent an excuse on a plate.

 

[takno]

Could well be something else - but we all know what a hornet's storm banding the word Nazi around can do. Quite often it is badly misused but there appears to be enough evidence predating this conflict posted online and in the British media to give credence to it.

Sometimes I do like to play devil's advocate rather than just go along with popular opinion - always been like that. There is too much of a trend these days to virtue signal / be seen to be saying the right thing - but do the people that do this always believe in what they are saying or is it just done to be with the "in crowd" and avoid public censure?

I am often willing to put my head above the parapet with contrary views on a range of subjects and had a field day with Covid, though it looks like on that topic with what is emerging my minority view might not have been that far off the mark.

What a sad jaded existence. The world is much smaller in many ways than it was when your understanding of Eastern Europe was cemented. Many of us have acquaintances or friends wrapped up in this conflict, or in countries which would be next on Putin's list ,or who have had to essentially flee Russia to enjoy a normal life.

Your grim whataboutery and Putin love disguised as "neutrality" is deeply and genuinely offensive to a lot of people in the UK

 

[John Luxton]

Russia has invaded a sovereign country and is slaughtering innocent civilians. What is there to be neutral about? Its like saying you are neutral on the Dunblane massacre or Nazi Germany's invasion of Poland!

You have consistently refused to criticize Putin or the invasion but you have attacked Ukraine and NATO several times. No matter how much you try and mask it, we can all see you are pro-Putin.

Dunblane and Poland different issues - I am sure we would have no area of disagreement here.

I have certainly not attacked Ukraine but suggested how perhaps things could have been done differently to avoid the present conflict.

I think the problem here most seem to see the issue as black and white but fail to recognize the grey between and there is a lot of that.

 

[najaB]

100% I have not once defended Putin

So what was this:

Putting it into historical context is Putin doing nothing more than the US did when it reclaimed the Confederacy?

This sounds like victim blaming:

That is why I suggested earlier that Zalensky should have withdrawn forces from the contested areas to avoid Russian attack would have protected civilians, property and infrastructure.

And this?

But I do wonder how much we in the west have mis read Putin and given him the political ammunition to justify his actions.

An example of "Well, she shouldn't have dressed like that...?"

It could and SHOULD have been avoided as much as Putin should not have done what he did perhaps Zalensky had not carried on making noises about joining NATO and ceding some territory it could have been avoided?

 

[TheEdge]

Proxy wars are very much part of the issue. Russia is the heir to the Soviet Union. NATO or constituent countries have been involved in all sorts of wars.

No, it isn't.

The Soviet Union ceased to exist on 26 December 1991, it has no heir. The other SSRs became independent states in their own right and the Russian SSR became The Russian Federation. Russia has no claims based on the USSR anymore than Germany has a claim on Kaliningrad because it used to be part of Prussia.

 

[John Luxton]

What a sad jaded existence. The world is much smaller in many ways than it was when your understanding of Eastern Europe was cemented. Many of us have acquaintances or friends wrapped up in this conflict, or in countries which would be next on Putin's list ,or who have had to essentially flee Russia to enjoy a normal life.

Your grim whataboutery and Putin love disguised as "neutrality" is deeply and genuinely offensive to a lot of people in the UK

I can appreciate concern for friends and acquaintances and I do not wish harm on anyone.

However, I have always been fascinated by history and current events and "Whataboutery" as you put it has formed part of this interest.

It is not meant to be offensive in any manner.

We could equally be discussing events of 1914 on the lead up to the First World War and how events at the end lead to the Second World War.