Rushmoor and Surry Heath Stations

[The Ham]

There are currently three railway line which run in fairly close proximity, however do not interconnect (other than the two north south lines which share track between Guildford and Ash, but that is not helpful for most people due to the long dwell time at Aldershot).

It has been an aspiration of Hampshire to see a better interconnectivity between these lines, as such how would you go about doing it?

I have come up with a few options:

1 - Electrify the Reading Gatwick lines, then with the improved journey times use this to add a new station next to Blackwater Shopping Park (Farnborough Gate), this would then provide a shortish walk to Frimley Station (900m), providing the possibility for people to change lines.
The route could be made a bit shorter by putting steps from the platforms up to the road bridge (this would also make the cost of the station less as no separate pedestrian bridge would be needed).
Other benefits could include (although mostly due to electrification) longer trains (the current 166's can be full and standing) removal of a diesel island and release of 166's to be used elsewhere (although with their 3+2 seating I wouldn't have thought that they are good enough for some).

2 - Reopen the old chord from Farnborough to Frimley and build a new chord which would pass under the SWML to allow trains to run the other way without doing so on the flat.
Use these chords to provide a new stopping service (by using two sets of 456's running on their own, it would be enough to provide an hourly service) between Basingstoke and Ascot.
This would provide direct connection between two of the lines, if a new station was build on the chords (Frimley Green) then the walk distance from there to Farnborough North would be about 800m.
There could also be the option of new stations (Southwood, Elvetham Heath, Frimley Green, Watchmoor Park), which (mostly) wouldn't come to the for as it would increase journey times to London, but could relieve pressure on the local roads and station car parks (i.e. no driving from Southwood to Farnborough Main as either catch the train direct or to Basingstoke/Farnborough and change).
This would also open up new train travel options (for instance Basingstoke to Camberley would be be able to be a direct service taking about 35 minutes rather than requiring two changes and about an hour and a quarter, which although would be slower than driving off peak, about 25 minutes, would really come into it's own during the peak hours. Even Basingstoke to Ascot would be comparable but with no change required at Reading).
It would also enable the possibility of, during times of engineering works, trains from west of Farnborough having an alternative route into London by joining the Reading - Waterloo line.
It could also provide some (limited) capacity relief to the existing peak hour services to London as some people travelling to Farnborough would likely use the new service rather than try and squeeze on and/or off the London bound trains.
Given the high frequency bus service between Camberley and Aldershot (calling at Farnborough station) I would have thought that there would probably a reasonable level of demand for such a service. Especially, if the suggested new stations were provided as they would connect a lot of houses and business (including some fairly substantial business parks) which are currently not close to rail links and in most cases only have a fairly limited bus service.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

How would I do it?
1. Build roughly the new Farnborough Gate station as you suggest.
2. Close Farnborough North station and replace it with a new Farnborough Junction station further south, where the main line and the Reading-Gatwick lines cross - with platforms on both lines, obviously.
3. Close Frimley station and the existing line between Frimley and Ash Vale, and build two chords in the obvious places, so that Ascot-Guildford services can instead run: Camberley - Farnborough Gate - Farnborough Junction - North Camp - Aldershot - Ash etc. Obviously you'd need to electrify that bit of the Reading-Gatwick line too.

All lines except the Alton line intersect at Farnborough Junction - problem solved

 

[The Ham]

How would I do it?
1. Build roughly the new Farnborough Gate station as you suggest.
2. Close Farnborough North station and replace it with a new Farnborough Junction station further south, where the main line and the Reading-Gatwick lines cross - with platforms on both lines, obviously.
3. Close Frimley station and the existing line between Frimley and Ash Vale, and build two chords in the obvious places, so that Ascot-Guildford services can instead run: Camberley - Farnborough Gate - Farnborough Junction - North Camp - Aldershot - Ash etc. Obviously you'd need to electrify that bit of the Reading-Gatwick line too.

All lines except the Alton line intersect at Farnborough Junction - problem solved

In theory that sounds reasonable, however I have my doubts as I'm not sure that it would be very easy to build to connect the Camberley Line with the North Camp Line, nor would it go down well putting an extra stop on the SWML or moving Farnborough (Main) Station to an even less central location.

 

[adc82140]

Problem is that the North Downs line and the SWML intersect right in a residential area, with houses right up to the lines. There is no space for a station and its associated facilities without demolishing a fair chunk of Rectory Road.

What needs to be done in Farnborough is have a better integrated transport system- for a start install a pedestrian crossing near the Highgate Lane/Rectory Road junction- if you're walking between the stations, trying to cross the road there can be risky. Perhaps the No. 1 bus should be diverted away from the A325 down Ship Lane, past Farnborough North and up Highgate Lane to Farnborough Main to form a shuttle service. It's a Stagecoach service, and fairly regular, so could have integrated ticketing, and I gather the A325 bus lane is to be removed anyway later this year, so the No. 1's time advantage going the existing route will be lost.

I agree that there needs to be a station at Farnborough Gate (I know that it's now called Blackwater Park, but everyone who lives round here still calls it Farnborough Gate). Not qute o sure about Watchmoor Park s it's quite close to Blackwater.

The Guildford-Ascot service should be split- Run it Guildford to Alton or Farnham to open new journey opportunities for residents of these towns, and then run a seperate Aldershot to Ascot service as a 2 car.

 

[Cambo_flyer]

There are currently three railway line which run in fairly close proximity, however do not interconnect (other than the two north south lines which share track between Guildford and Ash, but that is not helpful for most people due to the long dwell time at Aldershot).

It has been an aspiration of Hampshire to see a better interconnectivity between these lines, as such how would you go about doing it?

I have come up with a few options:

1 - Electrify the Reading Gatwick lines, then with the improved journey times use this to add a new station next to Blackwater Shopping Park (Farnborough Gate), this would then provide a shortish walk to Frimley Station (900m), providing the possibility for people to change lines.
The route could be made a bit shorter by putting steps from the platforms up to the road bridge (this would also make the cost of the station less as no separate pedestrian bridge would be needed).
Other benefits could include (although mostly due to electrification) longer trains (the current 166's can be full and standing) removal of a diesel island and release of 166's to be used elsewhere (although with their 3+2 seating I wouldn't have thought that they are good enough for some).

2 - Reopen the old chord from Farnborough to Frimley and build a new chord which would pass under the SWML to allow trains to run the other way without doing so on the flat.
Use these chords to provide a new stopping service (by using two sets of 456's running on their own, it would be enough to provide an hourly service) between Basingstoke and Ascot.
This would provide direct connection between two of the lines, if a new station was build on the chords (Frimley Green) then the walk distance from there to Farnborough North would be about 800m.
There could also be the option of new stations (Southwood, Elvetham Heath, Frimley Green, Watchmoor Park), which (mostly) wouldn't come to the for as it would increase journey times to London, but could relieve pressure on the local roads and station car parks (i.e. no driving from Southwood to Farnborough Main as either catch the train direct or to Basingstoke/Farnborough and change).
This would also open up new train travel options (for instance Basingstoke to Camberley would be be able to be a direct service taking about 35 minutes rather than requiring two changes and about an hour and a quarter, which although would be slower than driving off peak, about 25 minutes, would really come into it's own during the peak hours. Even Basingstoke to Ascot would be comparable but with no change required at Reading).
It would also enable the possibility of, during times of engineering works, trains from west of Farnborough having an alternative route into London by joining the Reading - Waterloo line.
It could also provide some (limited) capacity relief to the existing peak hour services to London as some people travelling to Farnborough would likely use the new service rather than try and squeeze on and/or off the London bound trains.
Given the high frequency bus service between Camberley and Aldershot (calling at Farnborough station) I would have thought that there would probably a reasonable level of demand for such a service. Especially, if the suggested new stations were provided as they would connect a lot of houses and business (including some fairly substantial business parks) which are currently not close to rail links and in most cases only have a fairly limited bus service.

All very nice but the problem with reinstating the chord between the Ascot-Ash Vale and SWML is that there is no capacity on SWML to take those trains unless a Basingstoke service is sacrificed, and you can guess how popular that would be.

Also the junction would need to be grade separated as a flat junction would eat up more capacity. That would be tricky to build in a busy residential area.

I like the idea of electrifying the North Downs line between Wokingham and Aldershot South junction though, and any other infills required between Guildford and Redhill to allow electric services between Reading and Gatwick.

 

[The Ham]

All very nice but the problem with reinstating the chord between the Ascot-Ash Vale and SWML is that there is no capacity on SWML to take those trains unless a Basingstoke service is sacrificed, and you can guess how popular that would be.

The services could run in the "shadow" of the Alton services which use the slow lines between Woking and Brookwood without impacting the Basingstoke services. There are only 4 trains an hour using the slow lines, even allowing for two new services and two freight that would be 8 trains per hour on that section. That would be hardly be a problem for the two slow lines to cope with.

Also the junction would need to be grade separated as a flat junction would eat up more capacity. That would be tricky to build in a busy residential area.

I wasn't suggesting a flat junction was on the flat, as I said:

...and build a new chord which would pass under the SWML to allow trains to run the other way without doing so on the flat.

The chords would not be in residential area, For starters the west to north chord used to there and is in area between the Frimley Line and the A331 where there are no properties. The other chord would be in the area to the south of the SWML where although there is a pub it is far enough away that it wouldn't be anywhere near the the new chord.

I like the idea of electrifying the North Downs line between Wokingham and Aldershot South junction though, and any other infills required between Guildford and Redhill to allow electric services between Reading and Gatwick.

Given how busy the services are of an evening out of Guildford (full and standing to at least Farnborough North) there could be a good case for train lengthing following electrification. I do not know how busy the daytime services are, but given that there are plans for having a service from Oxford to Gatwick (using the underpass at Reading) using dual voltage 4 or even 5 coach trains could be use well enough used to justify the improvements.

 

[swt_passenger]

...but given that there are plans for having a service from Oxford to Gatwick (using the underpass at Reading) using dual voltage 4 or even 5 coach trains could be use well enough used to justify the improvements.

There are no such current plans. There have been plenty of suggestions in the forums, but no evidence whatsoever that real services are to be introduced. The problem is that electrification of the GWML has been superimposed since the station re-design was done, and all the services from/to west of Reading that the Gatwick service could possibly be joined to will be run by EMUs in a couple of years time. IMHO this means there is no possibility of linking services until the North Downs is also electrified...

 

[Cambo_flyer]

The services could run in the "shadow" of the Alton services which use the slow lines between Woking and Brookwood without impacting the Basingstoke services. There are only 4 trains an hour using the slow lines, even allowing for two new services and two freight that would be 8 trains per hour on that section. That would be hardly be a problem for the two slow lines to cope with.

I don't think you're right there. I believe there are more than 4 trains an hour on the slows. The RUS states that the SWML runs near to capacity through most of the day. And I don't know what you mean about running trains in the shadow of others?


I wasn't suggesting a flat junction was on the flat, as I said:



The chords would not be in residential area, For starters the west to north chord used to there and is in area between the Frimley Line and the A331 where there are no properties. The other chord would be in the area to the south of the SWML where although there is a pub it is far enough away that it wouldn't be anywhere near the the new chord.

The area adjacent to the old chord is a densely populated part of Frimley Green. I know this because I live nearby.

Access for construction traffic would be very difficult.

Grade separating the junction would be very disruptive locally and would require acquisition of SW Water's land amongst others.



Given how busy the services are of an evening out of Guildford (full and standing to at least Farnborough North) there could be a good case for train lengthing following electrification. I do not know how busy the daytime services are, but given that there are plans for having a service from Oxford to Gatwick (using the underpass at Reading) using dual voltage 4 or even 5 coach trains could be use well enough used to justify the improvements.

I have never hear of any plans for a Oxford - Gatwick service either. I cant see where it would ever fit in with all the other services that are planning to use Oxford and with the capacity constraints on the lines between there and here I cant see it ever happening.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

In theory that sounds reasonable, however I have my doubts as I'm not sure that it would be very easy to build to connect the Camberley Line with the North Camp Line, nor would it go down well putting an extra stop on the SWML or moving Farnborough (Main) Station to an even less central location.

I'm also unsure how easy it would be to connect the Camberley and North Camp lines. As far as I can tell from Google maps, it looks like there's enough space to do it north of the M3, so possible in principle, but there are roads that would need to be bridged.

I certainly wouldn't want to move Farnborough (Main) station, so I think the connection would have to come from an additional station. In terms of adding one, while some people might not appreciate the extra stop, I would argue for that being a case of the benefits being worth it, since the extra connectivity added would huge if it can connect to both the Reading-Gatwick and the Ascot-Guildford lines at the same time. There are already a mixture of slows, semi-fasts and non-stops between Woking and Basingstoke along that line, so I'd have thought it should be possible to recast that timetable to cope with a new station (actually there are a couple of places along the line that could justify stations that don't have them at the moment).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Problem is that the North Downs line and the SWML intersect right in a residential area, with houses right up to the lines. There is no space for a station and its associated facilities without demolishing a fair chunk of Rectory Road.

Looking at Google, there appear to be houses to the West of the North Downs line, but mostly nothing to the East, so you could probably make room by moving the lines over slightly. Looks like there's room for platforms on the SWML, although it wouldn't be cheap since they'd be elevated. You might want to improve road access for a new station too. All looks possible to me. I'd put it in the 'expensive but probably worth it' category.

The Guildford-Ascot service should be split- Run it Guildford to Alton or Farnham to open new journey opportunities for residents of these towns, and then run a seperate Aldershot to Ascot service as a 2 car.

I like that idea. Guildford-Farnham or Ascot-Farnham could work quite well, though I doubt there's the demand to justify running to Alton. It would also fit in well with my idea, since through Camberley-Guildford passengers would be able to change to the North Downs line at Farnborough Gate, and so have little need for a through Ascot-Guildford service that does a long detour through Aldershot.

 

[swt_passenger]

I have never hear of any plans for a Oxford - Gatwick service either. I cant see where it would ever fit in with all the other services that are planning to use Oxford and with the capacity constraints on the lines between there and here I cant see it ever happening.

Even if there was no electrification going on, I agree the part of the service west of Oxford would have to be a new one; otherwise which possible trains that currently run jam packed to Paddington from Oxford would they be likely to cancel east of Reading so that they could divert them to Gatwick instead?

 

[The Ham]

From http://www.surreycc.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/684119/Surrey-Rail-Strategy-Report-web.pdf

5.1.5
Sturt RoadChord
This option addresses the adequacy issue of poor connections to London from the town of Camberley. It provides a direct link between Camberley (including Bagshot and Frimley) to the SWML towards London. It involves re-instatement of the Sturt Road Chord which links the north-south Ascot to Ash Vale line with the South West Main Line to Woking and
London , as shown in Figure 17. The trackbed embankment at the junction still exists and the site has not been redeveloped since its closure in 1964. For Down services (away from London) a grade-separated flyover (or tunnel) is required.
There is no funding currently allocated to this option. Costs are estimated in the region of £75m.
This is a long term scheme, because major infrastructure works are required and additional services can only be incorporated on the SWML when Crossrail 2 or an
alternative long term solution has been implemented, which releases the additional capacity on the inner area of the SWML to enable this service to be operated.
Indeed, even if a long term solution is implemented, the business case for providing services on this link would need to be evaluated against providing additional services on the Main Line to destinations such as Basingstoke or Haslemere

Even Surrey's own report admitts that direct services are not feasable in the short term and even longer term could be beaten by services which would have a better business case. Therefore why run the wrong way, have a change at Farnborough and be able to have faster jorney times to London earlier than 2030 (or whenever Crossrail 2 opens) whilst opening up other journey opportunities for other journeys (such as to the South Coast).

Yes at about £75m it wouldn't be cheap, but with an annual season ticket from Farnborough Stations to London Waterloo starting at £3,500 there wouldn't need to be that many extra passengers to Waterloo (about 360 a year over a 60 year time frame) to cover the cost of the chord (even on an hourly service that could only be an extra 120 people per train over a 3 hour peak).

That is before taking into account any additional passengers who would use it on an ad-hoc basis and using it for other routes. In fact depending on the train times it could even be possible that Camberley to Guildford via Farnborough and Woking could be a comparable journey time to going "direct" via Aldershot. Even if it wasn't faster people may still go that way if it meant that it didn't require waiting for the next direct service.

Even if there was a direct service from Camberley it would need to stop at several other stations to get the passenger loadings required to justify the new service. In which case most people would change to a faster service anyway.

 

[infobleep]

In theory that sounds reasonable, however I have my doubts as I'm not sure that it would be very easy to build to connect the Camberley Line with the North Camp Line, nor would it go down well putting an extra stop on the SWML or moving Farnborough (Main) Station to an even less central location.

I doubt not stopping trains during the peak rush hour at Clapham Junction is popular but it happens. So if they wanted to put an extra stop around Farnborough, it could happen and the people who don't like it would have no choice, except not travelling.

 

[Cambo_flyer]

Each additional stop introduced further reduced the capacity of the route. An extra stop between Farnborough and Brookwood would probably have quite a severe effect on performance.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Each additional stop introduced further reduced the capacity of the route. An extra stop between Farnborough and Brookwood would probably have quite a severe effect on performance.

Why? This isn't Clapham Junction, it's a four-track route in which the slow lines are served by four trains an hour (2 all stops, one stopping only at Farnborough, and one only at Farnborough and Fleet - I'm not sure whether either of those semi-fasts would transfer to the fast lines east of Farnborough?). And two more trains an hour from Alton join the slow lines near Brookwood.

The fast lines would presumably be completely unaffected by additional stops on the slow lines, and it doesn't look from the timetable like the slow lines are clogged up with trains every few minutes. So I don't see offhand how an additional station would have a particularly bad impact?