RSSB- 2 Strike rule- Train Driver

[Kevind]

Hello everyone.
I hope your well.
I want to confirm whether if you fail the trainee driver assessment twice, after 5 years do you get your 2 lives back.

thank you.

 

[Dynamonic]

Unfortunately not I’m afraid.

Lives are only generally reset if the assessment process is changed. (They were last changed in 2013, and I’m not aware of any future plans to change the process)

The five years is the RSSB validity period for when you PASS the assessments, but even then, some Train Operating Companies (TOCs) will only accept newer passes. (Some only allow them if they’re under two years old)

Hope this helps.

 

[185]

Can of worms time, I wonder how retaining the fail data on person X for five years would be GDPR compliant?

 

[NorvernRob]

Being brutally honest, I think the two strikes rule is perfectly fair. The assessments aren’t difficult, but they do test the abilities you’ll need as well as being able to work under pressure.

One guy on my assessment day failed because he misunderstood a question, and only circled one set of matching symbols on the TRP test. He deserves, and can have a second chance as we’d been chatting beforehand and he’s clearly a clever guy. We both got to 40+ on the cables and dials test (working out and checking each answer, not guessing!), so he was no slouch.

However, if he messed up again then that says maybe he’s prone to mistakes or has communication issues. Give people chance after chance and it becomes a numbers game, with people passing after multiple failed attempts. Those people probably wouldn’t train well.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

Ok so the tests measure a multitude of things. Things that are important to the role and also that the skills come naturally.

The more attempts the more you learn to pass a test, then your showing learnt behaviour not natural.

Ok so the person can think logically and under pressure as they did well on the one test, but they failed to reach a clear understanding when given simple instructions.

The tests showed that this person didn’t have the required skill to progress because others had both skills.

So as above if you have to work hard to pass the tests you will probably have to work hard to do the job. If it comes natural then the role will too ? Not that you still won’t make the grade just that your more risky in the role

 

[Gooner18]

Slightly off topic , I wonder what the fail rate is once someone starts training to become a driver.

 

[ComUtoR]

Slightly off topic , I wonder what the fail rate is once someone starts training to become a driver.

It drops quite dramatically. The highest failure is in the sift and assessment stages. It almost goes to show how valuable the assessment process is when you consider the failure rates after training has commenced is so low.

 

[Gooner18]

It drops quite dramatically. The highest failure is in the sift and assessment stages. It almost goes to show how valuable the assessment process is when you consider the failure rates after training has commenced is so low.

Cheers , was wondering as everyone says how hard and intense the training is.

 

[ComUtoR]

Its different. Personally I am not academic so going back to "school" was a difficult move. The culture change was difficult and commuting into London every day had another detrimental effect.

The course itself was bland and not very interactive but they have moved on a lot and there are video presentations, power points, charts, diagrams, simkits, and even the simulator is now integrated into the training (at my TOC). There is a LOT of information into a very condensed course and the expectation and pass marks are high.

You get out what you put in. You need to be open minded and almost a complete blank slate. There is no room for ego that's for sure. Most people I speak to like the course and they are designed to take someone with no knowledge and teach them in a structured and logical way. Those that fail generally fail for specific reasons. Some just do not listen, some are combative, some come with a lot of baggage.

If people think the two strike rule is bad. My TOC has a one strike rule for the training and 1% can mean the difference between progressing and failure. We just lost a Trainee who failed at the final stage. No second go, no further training, potentially no more job.

I hate to think what it would be like without the two strike rule.

 

[Gooner18]

Its different. Personally I am not academic so going back to "school" was a difficult move. The culture change was difficult and commuting into London every day had another detrimental effect.

The course itself was bland and not very interactive but they have moved on a lot and there are video presentations, power points, charts, diagrams, simkits, and even the simulator is now integrated into the training (at my TOC). There is a LOT of information into a very condensed course and the expectation and pass marks are high.

You get out what you put in. You need to be open minded and almost a complete blank slate. There is no room for ego that's for sure. Most people I speak to like the course and they are designed to take someone with no knowledge and teach them in a structured and logical way. Those that fail generally fail for specific reasons. Some just do not listen, some are combative, some come with a lot of baggage.

If people think the two strike rule is bad. My TOC has a one strike rule for the training and 1% can mean the difference between progressing and failure. We just lost a Trainee who failed at the final stage. No second go, no further training, potentially no more job.

I hate to think what it would be like without the two strike rule.

Blimey that’s strict , mind you I guess if you put the revision in you should pass

 

[joystick]

Why should the results only stand for 5 years ? do you get more dense after that ! your fails are for life but your passes only last 5 years.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

Why should the results only stand for 5 years ? do you get more dense after that ! your fails are for life but your passes only last 5 years.

You definitely lose the edge as you get older ! Also they become invalid after a significant life event.

 

[baz962]

You definitely lose the edge as you get older ! Also they become invalid after a significant life event.

Ha , I beg to differ.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

Ha , I beg to differ.

You must be like a wine, getting better with age lol.

The older I get the more confident with face to face elements but the less with the tests.

 

[baz962]

Thanks for the compliment lol.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

Thanks for the compliment lol.

I got a lot of love to give lol

 

[BallastMonkey]

Its different. Personally I am not academic so going back to "school" was a difficult move. The culture change was difficult and commuting into London every day had another detrimental effect.

The course itself was bland and not very interactive but they have moved on a lot and there are video presentations, power points, charts, diagrams, simkits, and even the simulator is now integrated into the training (at my TOC). There is a LOT of information into a very condensed course and the expectation and pass marks are high.

You get out what you put in. You need to be open minded and almost a complete blank slate. There is no room for ego that's for sure. Most people I speak to like the course and they are designed to take someone with no knowledge and teach them in a structured and logical way. Those that fail generally fail for specific reasons. Some just do not listen, some are combative, some come with a lot of baggage.

If people think the two strike rule is bad. My TOC has a one strike rule for the training and 1% can mean the difference between progressing and failure. We just lost a Trainee who failed at the final stage. No second go, no further training, potentially no more job.

I hate to think what it would be like without the two strike rule.

What TOC is this may I ask? Seems a bit tough to not allow for second chances or even third. Surely the TOC should support the individual before making such a move. This can be quite off-putting for those who would be leaving secure jobs for an opportunity only to get knocked back/made redundant for failing by a few marks.

 

[ComUtoR]

What TOC is this may I ask? Seems a bit tough to not allow for second chances or even third.

Why should they ? Passmarks are there for a reason- i.e. you must achieve it. There is full support if you need it and everyone is treated equally. Remember that this is a job where second chances often do not exist. Personally I feel the passmark is a little generous but if you cannot achieve a pass, at the end of a module you just got taught, then what chance do you have in a years time at the end of your manual handling ?

How many chances should you get before you are just learning the answers ?

Surely the TOC should support the individual before making such a move.

There is plenty of support. You have a class of students and colleagues that work together, you have the Trainer and the entire training school at your disposal, your Driver Manager and at some TOCs some form of mentor. This is all highlighted from the outset. The line in the sand is the end of module assessment.

Seriously it doesn't ever end. You need to pass rules, then traction, then manual handling and your part 6/initial assessment for Driver contains everything you have learned. If you struggled during rules, there is little chance you will make it through the entire process.

This can be quite off-putting for those who would be leaving secure jobs for an opportunity only to get knocked back/made redundant for failing by a few marks.

You can get knocked back for a single question. Yes it's that harsh but its the industry we are in. Safety critical really is critical. There is risk in everything and the driving grade is no different from anywhere else, maybe a little stricter. Its hard, but fair.

I reckon at the moment we are sitting around 15-20% failure at rules, maybe 5% at traction and 2% at the final stage. Not forgetting that there are still Drivers who don't make it through their first year.

You also wouldn't get any redundancy. Your role as a Driver is dependent on you passing. Often they will do their best to find you a different role in the company but you are effectively given notice.

 

[BallastMonkey]

What TOC is this, so that I know before applying to it?

 

[N47]

The two strike rule is that if you fail the online assesments vse and m7sjt?

Or the assessments in the next stage at OPC?

 

[greatkingrat]

If 25% of the trainees at your TOC are failing, that suggests there is something wrong with the recruiting, or the training, or both. I would say it is 10% max failing at my TOC.

 

[ComUtoR]

If 25% of the trainees at your TOC are failing, that suggests there is something wrong with the recruiting, or the training, or both. I would say it is 10% max failing at my TOC.

I'd be interested to know what our overall statistics are for rules, traction and manual handling combined. We have a high Trainee turnover tbh and I wonder if this is because of having a strict approach to people having a second go or the sheer number of Trainees that pass through the school. It may even be that we have a higher pass mark than other TOCs.

I'd love to discuss it but social media policy and all that :/

 

[N47]

The two strike rule is that if you fail the online assesments vse and m7sjt?

Or the assessments in the next stage at OPC?

 

[baz962]

The two strike rule is that if you fail the online assesments vse and m7sjt?

Or the assessments in the next stage at OPC?

Both .

 

[baz962]

Both .

Sorry , the opc assessments have two strikes . Normal sjt doesn't , but magnificent 7 does I believe.

 

[N47]

So the online vse the onenyou do before the assessment stage is that included in the two strike

Or is it just anything done at the assessment centre

 

[MostlyHarmless]

So the online vse the onenyou do before the assessment stage is that included in the two strike

Or is it just anything done at the assessment centre

Just the assessment centre for the 2 strikes rule. If you fail anything online it generally means you can't reapply for that TOC for 6 months

 

[N47]

Thanks

 

[Dieseldriver]

What TOC is this, so that I know before applying to it?

Sounds like a decent one which isn't prepared to pass out Drivers which aren't capable of carrying out the job in a safe and proper manner. In my experience, the Trainees which don't get through the course were unsuitable for the job in the first place and had they understood what the job involved and we're true to themselves, they would never have been in that position as they would never have applied in the first place. Getting a Drivers job isn't about passing the psychometric assessments and interview, it's about giving it 110% during training to make sure you know what you're doing, developing and building on that knowledge throughout your career and daily carrying out the job with professionalism and safe practice. Most people are fine with that but the minority who don't step up to their responsibilities should rightly be asked to seek alternative employment.

 

[baz962]

Just the assessment centre for the 2 strikes rule. If you fail anything online it generally means you can't reapply for that TOC for 6 months

And the magnificent seven sjt .