Royal Mail to cease using trains

[Fatboyslim]

Skimpot, many thanks for your updates. I used to work for RM myself a few years ago, please don’t put your job at risk posting pictures, in the fullness of time they will leave PRDC.

 

[Class15]

I cannot confirm either of those things.
But logic dictates they’d be unlikely to spend this money to then put the units into storage, surely?
Any value as a Rail Museum exhibit is only in their original Royal Mail livery, one would expect?

Thank you for replying, and no problem whatsoever!

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Skimpot, many thanks for your updates. I used to work for RM myself a few years ago, please don’t put your job at risk posting pictures, in the fullness of time they will leave PRDC.

Thanks for the advice. Much as I’d like to post the pictures, it really is a no-no.

I noticed the wraparound doesn’t yet fully reach the front of the cab. The bit between the driver’s door and the yellow end is still Royal Mail red.
Would they be required legally to keep the yellow paint? Modern stock such as the Class 717 EMUs don’t have the yellow ends…

 

[Class15]

Thanks for the advice. Much as I’d like to post the pictures, it really is a no-no.

I noticed the wraparound doesn’t yet fully reach the front of the cab. The bit between the driver’s door and the yellow end is still Royal Mail red.
Would they be required legally to keep the yellow paint? Modern stock such as the Class 717 EMUs don’t have the yellow ends…

It depends on the intensity of the headlights. Would 325s pass this? At a guess, no. But I’m not sure.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks for the advice. Much as I’d like to post the pictures, it really is a no-no.

I noticed the wraparound doesn’t yet fully reach the front of the cab. The bit between the driver’s door and the yellow end is still Royal Mail red.
Would they be required legally to keep the yellow paint? Modern stock such as the Class 717 EMUs don’t have the yellow ends…

It depends on the quality of the unit’s lighting. If it‘s still as originally fitted it may not meet the required standards to allow running without the yellow.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

But headlights could be changed, no?

 

[JamesT]

But headlights could be changed, no?

You could change the headlights and put the new setup through a risk assessment to see that they meet the current standard to dispense with a yellow front. But the owners have almost certainly decided they don't want to pay to do that for rolling stock that may have a very limited lifespan.

 

[D365]

The remaining Class 325 units retain the ’BMAC’ light clusters as built. So there would not be an exemption to the standards.

 

[DanNCL]

Thanks for the advice. Much as I’d like to post the pictures, it really is a no-no.

I noticed the wraparound doesn’t yet fully reach the front of the cab. The bit between the driver’s door and the yellow end is still Royal Mail red.
Would they be required legally to keep the yellow paint? Modern stock such as the Class 717 EMUs don’t have the yellow ends…

Not for 325s as they don’t have compliant headlights. They would need new high intensity headlights to replace the current BMAC headlights, and would need an additional marker light fitting at the top. RailAdventure did it with their HST powercars but otherwise nobody has bothered to do it to existing stock.

 

[Class15]

nobody has bothered to do it to existing stock.

Forgive me if I’m wrong but I thought the Brighton Belle was retrofitted with high-intensity headlights?

 

[Nym]

As has the D78 RAT and MPU (back when it used to exist) but they still have (had) their red fronts. (Actually, the MPU didn't it was never repainted back into Red from it's White).

 

[DanNCL]

Forgive me if I’m wrong but I thought the Brighton Belle was retrofitted with high-intensity headlights?

It is but I was referring to active mainline stock as opposed to preserved stock, sorry for not making that clear in my original post.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Caught a glimpse of 325002 again today. The wraparound is complete on the platform-facing side, and I noticed something new.
Multi-digit keypads are now fitted to the side of the carriage doors, replacing the key-operated locks that were there before.
325001 now has grey-painted doors on the platform side, and three of the four carriages have the grey wraparound in place.
So there are now 2 units, uncoupled, in Platform 1, three (separated) in Platform 2, and one halfway up Platform 3

 

[sad1e]

Got a look at a 325 from a overground 710 today, there is indeed a 325 in willesden pdrc , iirrc the unit was 325001 .I wasn't able to notice any new paint on it from my short glance at it. it is visible out of the wcml facing side of the DC lines between stonebridge park and wembley central for anyone that wants to try and see it during the repaint.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Got a look at a 325 from a overground 710 today, there is indeed a 325 in willesden pdrc , iirrc the unit was 325001 .I wasn't able to notice any new paint on it from my short glance at it. it is visible out of the wcml facing side of the DC lines between stonebridge park and wembley central for anyone that wants to try and see it during the repaint.

The unit you saw was almost certainly 325005.
It’s at the country end of Platform 2, further up than normal, as there are 3 uncoupled units in a platform designed for 12 carriages (3x 4-car units)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2025 ==

Interesting chat with a guy doing the wraparounds on the 325s. He says they’ve been given 4 weeks to complete the work, and that removal of the Royal Mail branding/identity was a condition of the sale.
He genuinely doesn’t know who the buyer is, but expects to get some branding decals to put on as the last part of the process.
Alas, I’m on an extended holiday now, so won’t be able to offer any updates until late April… by which time the 325s may have been moved out of PRDC
(I was mistaken about the locks. The square panels are where the distinctive blue lights that indicated if the roller shutter was open were sited).
Interesting to note this article https://www.ft.com/content/9a40dc0c-d96a-4a47-b7ea-ae1623627276 about high speed freight, in the Financial Times. It mentions Varamis Rail starting a new service between Birmingham International and London Liverpool Street in May…

Every weeknight, an ageing electric commuter train pulls out of Birmingham International station, near the city’s airport. Quickly reaching a top speed of 100mph, the train travels to Shieldmuir, on the southern edge of Glasgow, arriving at around 4am. But the converted trains that start-up Varamis Rail uses for the service no longer contain the seats and other passenger facilities they did when they were transporting commuters on routes in Essex and East Anglia. They are, instead, full of “roll cages” — the wheeled, wire containers used for moving stock for shops and other small-scale logistics operations.

 

[The_Train]

Interesting to note this article https://www.ft.com/content/9a40dc0c-d96a-4a47-b7ea-ae1623627276 about high speed freight, in the Financial Times. It mentions Varamis Rail starting a new service between Birmingham International and London Liverpool Street in May…

Varamis ran a unit into Liverpool Street as part of a grand announcement for that service but then nothing seems to have been said about since. Based on certain things I am hearing about Varamis (from a reliable source), I'd be very surprised if it was them who were involved with the 325s

 

[geordieblue]

Interesting comments about Freightliner in that article…

 

[Nym]

Interesting comments about Freightliner in that article…

Didn’t think that it was planned to make that public yet.
Note that it’s linked to “Porterbrook” with the words “Convert”, one might want to read between the lines a little bit.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Varamis ran a unit into Liverpool Street as part of a grand announcement for that service but then nothing seems to have been said about since. Based on certain things I am hearing about Varamis (from a reliable source), I'd be very surprised if it was them who were involved with the 325s

A friend found this article from 7 months ago, where Phil Read said Varamis might be interested in acquiring some of the 325s, subject to their condition (obviously)
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/2024/08/06/varamis-confirms-interest-in-royal-mail-class-325s

Varamis Rail CEO Phil Read told RAIL: “The ‘325s’ are not off the table for us - we believe there are huge opportunities for them. Our ten trains will soon be needed to meet our needs just on the West Coast Main Line, so we will need more trains to serve the East Coast Main Line.

“The ‘325s’ also have third-rail capability as well as 25kV AC. That is a huge attraction to us, and could open up new markets, such as Portsmouth.

“There are still a lot of facilities that could be used to serve the high-speed logistics network. There are a lot of councils in the South that would be keen for us to serve them.”

However, Read did express concern over the potential condition of the ‘325s’.

“We would need to do a full asset inspection, and we’d also need to know where they are in their overhaul cycles. If they are due heavy overhauls, they may simply not be viable to take on.

“We would be hoping for some government support. And they remain a state-owned asset.”

 

[geordieblue]

Didn’t think that it was planned to make that public yet.
Note that it’s linked to “Porterbrook” with the words “Convert”, one might want to read between the lines a little bit.

This application to ORR has been online for a while (https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-08/freightliner-heavy-haul-28th-sa-rights-table.pdf) but yes I’d thought they would be keeping it quiet for a bit longer. Or announcing it via a slightly different outlet than the FT!

 

[Skimpot flyer]

This application to ORR has been online for a while (https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-08/freightliner-heavy-haul-28th-sa-rights-table.pdf) but yes I’d thought they would be keeping it quiet for a bit longer. Or announcing it via a slightly different outlet than the FT!

In the Timing/Load column of the spreadsheet you posted, the numbers 325, 375 and 150 are shown.
Rolling stock class numbers??

 

[Nym]

In the Timing/Load column of the spreadsheet you posted, the numbers 325, 375 and 150 are shown.
Rolling stock class numbers??

I suspect so.

769s are timed as 319 or 150 depending on mode, so it could be indicative?

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I suspect so.

769s are timed as 319 or 150 depending on mode, so it could be indicative?

An intriguing couple of entries on that spreadsheet…
1O07 listed as 325/375, going via Clapham Junction and Brighton

1M11 listed as 375/325, going via Clapham Junction, Wembley Central and Crewe

Are 325s able to run coupled to 375s ?
Or is the wording indicating that those services may be operated using either type of unit?

1M11 in particular would definitely require dual-voltage-capable units if it is to be operated using EMUs

 

[Class15]

An intriguing couple of entries on that spreadsheet…
1O07 listed as 325/375, going via Clapham Junction and Brighton

1M11 listed as 375/325, going via Clapham Junction, Wembley Central and Crewe

Are 325s able to run coupled to 375s ?
Or is the wording indicating that those services may be operated using either type of unit?

1M11 in particular would definitely require dual-voltage-capable units if it is to be operated using EMUs

I would imagine that they are just timing loads that were easy to get for the route.

 

[ExRes]

An intriguing couple of entries on that spreadsheet…
1O07 listed as 325/375, going via Clapham Junction and Brighton

1M11 listed as 375/325, going via Clapham Junction, Wembley Central and Crewe

Are 325s able to run coupled to 375s ?
Or is the wording indicating that those services may be operated using either type of unit?

1M11 in particular would definitely require dual-voltage-capable units if it is to be operated using EMUs

As delivered the 325s were unable to couple to any other EMUs and I doubt that ever changed, loco hauled or to another 325 only

 

[Skimpot flyer]

As delivered the 325s were unable to couple to any other EMUs and I doubt that ever changed, loco hauled or to another 325 only

I’ve certainly been witness to a 325s being loco-hauled into/out of PRDC on more than a few occasions!

 

[zwk500]

An intriguing couple of entries on that spreadsheet…
1O07 listed as 325/375, going via Clapham Junction and Brighton

1M11 listed as 375/325, going via Clapham Junction, Wembley Central and Crewe

Are 325s able to run coupled to 375s ?
Or is the wording indicating that those services may be operated using either type of unit?

1M11 in particular would definitely require dual-voltage-capable units if it is to be operated using EMUs

Timing load changes en-route are there because the different timings loads have different coverage of runtimes. Operators don't have to run the class specified in the timing load, they just need to be able to maintain the times offered in the path.
A 325 is likely going to be able to meet 375 timings on the Brighton Line if they've kept the DC capability. 325s were originally dual-voltage (running to Tonbridge in particular) but I think I remember seeing on the forums references to the shoes having been isolated/removed? Somebody will need to correct me on that.

Similarly 1F01 is listed as 360/150 with intermediate points at Leicester, Derby and Sheffield. One imagines it won't be a 360 coupled to a 150, but a bi-mode unit changing over at the limit of electrification. The 360 timing load will have the times in for the Corby trains, and the 150 will have runtimes in for the unelectrified sections, and the stock used will need to be able to meet both of those timing loads in service. By the time it runs, the schedules may actually be timed in the system as 769-E changing to 769-D where necessary.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Timing load changes en-route are there because the different timings loads have different coverage of runtimes. Operators don't have to run the class specified in the timing load, they just need to be able to maintain the times offered in the path.
A 325 is likely going to be able to meet 375 timings on the Brighton Line if they've kept the DC capability. 325s were originally dual-voltage (running to Tonbridge in particular) but I think I remember seeing on the forums references to the shoes having been isolated/removed? Somebody will need to correct me on that.

Similarly 1F01 is listed as 360/150 with intermediate points at Leicester, Derby and Sheffield. One imagines it won't be a 360 coupled to a 150, but a bi-mode unit changing over at the limit of electrification. The 360 timing load will have the times in for the Corby trains, and the 150 will have runtimes in for the unelectrified sections, and the stock used will need to be able to meet both of those timing loads in service. By the time it runs, the schedules may actually be timed in the system as 769-E changing to 769-D where necessary.

Thanks. Very informative post.

 

[sh24]

I would put good money on the unnamed retailer being M&S. Their main e-commerce DC at Castle Donington is rail connected.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I would put good money on the unnamed retailer being M&S. Their main e-commerce DC at Castle Donington is rail connected.

If so, they can roll-off some goods at Brighton station, replacing the artic that has to reverse into the entrance to the former taxi rank, to re-stock the small store in the station!