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Route learning
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headshot119
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It varies based on the route and by company (I hear DCR accept a printed Quail map as route knowledge :roll
, there's no easy figure to give.For example Cardiff Queen Street - Cardiff Bay isn't going to take you a week to learn. Merthyr Tydfil - Cardiff Central on the other hand might take you a week or more.
There's usually an assessment at the end before its added to your route card.
Skimpot flyer
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If it's a knew route, he already knows it.
andrewkeith5
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HarleyDavidson
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Like you say it depends on the length and complexity of the route.
Waterloo to Clapham Junction is very complex for new drivers, full of easy to read across traps loads of signals, plus several junctions and routing possibilities.
You have to remember all of the speeds and points of no return, last crossover points etc. It can be quite a daunting task, but once it "clicks" in, it's easy.
For me the Portsmouth area is a complete nightmare, under the old signalling system, there were just 4 SPAD traps, under what is known as PARS, it jumped from 4 to 16! Also you have to remember that you're working with axle counters there, not track circuits. PARS is very complex to the new driver and it can take a considerable amount of time to understand and get right.
Ultimately you don't ask for an assessment until you fully understand the what's what and everything you need to know about the section of line(s), that you'll be working over, because you'll be signing a legal document to say that you are competent to work over it. You screw up, the buck stops with you.
Waterloo to Clapham Junction is very complex for new drivers, full of easy to read across traps loads of signals, plus several junctions and routing possibilities.
You have to remember all of the speeds and points of no return, last crossover points etc. It can be quite a daunting task, but once it "clicks" in, it's easy.
For me the Portsmouth area is a complete nightmare, under the old signalling system, there were just 4 SPAD traps, under what is known as PARS, it jumped from 4 to 16! Also you have to remember that you're working with axle counters there, not track circuits. PARS is very complex to the new driver and it can take a considerable amount of time to understand and get right.
Ultimately you don't ask for an assessment until you fully understand the what's what and everything you need to know about the section of line(s), that you'll be working over, because you'll be signing a legal document to say that you are competent to work over it. You screw up, the buck stops with you.
We have a set number of times that you must go over the route. You can also drive over the route under instruction and there is also reference material to look through and some will have a video of the route too.
Precisely
Driving + Written + Verbal + Observed
You can then get a refresher.
No time at all, if they already knew it.
If it was a new route then it would all depend how long and complicated the route is!
A WEEK? For the newly passed-out Drivers at our place its about 7 months route-learning before they can do a job!
HarleyDavidson
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But at your place the distances are long & the stations are bigger and quite complex!
headshot119
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theageofthetra
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On aspect which slows up route learning is the number of first year drivers at a TOC. At mine a first year driver cannot have anyone other than a DI, DM plus a couple of other senior grades with them. There are are also a large number of trainees with DI's out there who again won't have a third person doing routes with them. When I did routes I would say about 1 in 3 trains I tried to get in the cab for were denied due to this and I get the impression it would be worse now. Is each TOC's policy different on this point?
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zuriblue
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As a non-railwayman what's the difference between working with track circuits and with axle counters? Also what's PARS? (I could only find medical stuff in Google, as a guess is it Portsmouth Area Resignalling?)
SpacePhoenix
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_circuit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axle_counter
No idea what PARS is short for
I suspect its little things like TCOC's and knowing where you are in relation to the axle counter when you fail.
I also suspect that there are additional rules for Axle counters, how they fail and what to do etc.
Do you believe this is a good or bad thing ? With distractions and experience being the main driver for this rule would the second more experienced set of eyes in the cab actually benefit the new Drivers ? What if the second person was also a first year Driver too ?
On topic to route learning I find that someone else in the cab means you have access to more knowledge. First years tend to be more bookish and technical and the experienced have lots of local knowledge and a massive skill set to pass on.
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Err, no, that's about half our Route Card, the core route for passing out is Preston to Euston via Nuneaton and Birmingham, all Birmingham diversions and Crewe- Stoke- South too, then you can start on Scotland!
I think things were more relaxed in the past.
My father's route card (from Crewe) was Euston, Birmingham, Hereford, Holyhead, Liverpool, Carlisle, Manchester and Derby with all diversionary routes and all manner of backwaters [Goostrey oil depot anyone?
].Don't ever recall him going on many refreshers!
Sorry to be pedantic but if a driver gets distracted with an experienced driver in the cab they shouldn't be in the seat, there is just too much fluffy stuff about these days like "you must not wave at the signal box", "you cannot have another driver in the cab" I would have thought that a new driver would be more used to someone in the cab with them than a driver with 20 years experience as they have done 265 hours with an instructor. Most TOC's have the same policy whether or not it's the correct one that's down to the managers who think they are preventing incidents who have never been in the seat.
craigybagel
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At my depot, the core route makes up about 50% of the route card but about 90% of the work for drivers. Our last few trainees have spent so much time working over that core route when they've been getting their supervised hours in that when they pass out they pretty much already have the route knowledge for that route. They've spent a few months after passing out solely working that route before getting sent to route learn some of the other routes.
QueensCurve
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What if someone was new to driving, but, form whatever source, had some existing knowledge of track layouts, turnout speeds etc?
All the book knowledge in the world goes almost nowhere when you drive it.
They compliment each other and very hard to do one, without the other.
EbbwJunction1
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As a matter of interest, how long is the training period for someone who has no previous experience and no basic knowledge of how to drive a train?
HarleyDavidson
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PARS - Portsmouth Area ReSignalling.
BARS - Basingstoke Area ReSignalling.
The difference between axle counters and TC is that in an emergency, TC clips won't do anything in an axle counter area, whereas in a TC area it reverts the signals to red.
However we're still told to apply the TC clips as a "belt and braces" approach to protection.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Depends on the TOC, once passed on rules, traction, the amount of hours varies for SWT it's currently 225 hrs with a DI, a percentage of which must be in the dark, which can be problematical if you start doing your hours late spring when the clocks go forward and conversely easier to get in the winter.
13-18 months from walking in the door on day one to driving your first train on your own, as a ballpark figure.
EbbwJunction1
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SpacePhoenix
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Will a new driver normally learn the whole of a route or a section at a time (and doing an exam/test for each section)?
In the recent past it was done in one huge part. Signing the lot off after a set period. However now it appears to be done in smaller parts designed to cover one particular route at a time. There are tests now on each line we sign and the amount of questions reflects on the difficulty of the line. For instance simple signalling and few line speed changes will result in fewer questions. Our route knowledge is definitely tested more now. (speculate for yourselves why!)
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An example of how it used to be. 1984. I sign on at Old Oak Common having recently passed for Driving, my Driver for the 03.25 Padd-Oxford Papers had gone sick so the foreman tells me he's making me up to Driver to do the job, sorry I tell him I only sign as far as Reading, he walks over to a filing cabinet and gets my route card out, puts it on the desk in front of me and says '47096 on the table, sign that and f++k off' with a glint in his eye, I did, and no-one died!
I found route learning very daunting at first until an experienced driver explained to me it's like a tree. Learn the "trunk" then keep adding branches and twigs. Learning sections at a time is a great method and I find having a quail map to put names to viaducts and crossings helps also.
At my place an experienced DI (called an A1 assessor) briefs you on the whole route by conducting you as you drive it for the first time, then they give you a specified number of days off track to go learn it (requiring a minimum number of rides on the secondman side over the route), then you have an assessment that involves driving over the route while the assessor quizzes you on the features as you pass them.
The minimum number of days and trips required before you can have an assessment varies based on the length and complexity of the route, and you might be given more than one route to learn at the same time (but in that case the number of days allowed is added cumulatively.)
As a trainee learning the core routes, it can take months because it all adds up. In addition, core routes for trainees are assessed all at once as part of their "initial competence assessment" when they get their key, so it's up to them to make sure they retain the knowledge possibly for months before being assessed.
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