Romford - Upminster pre Overground

[Russel]

I recall First Great Eastern liveried 321s operating the Romford - Upminster shuttle before it transferred over to TFL to become part of the Overground, but what other stock, post privatisation was used?

Were 360s ever used on the Romford-Upminster? I thought I'd seen photos of it but not sure if I'm remembering correctly now.

 

[hexagon789]

I recall First Great Eastern liveried 321s operating the Romford - Upminster shuttle before it transferred over to TFL to become part of the Overground, but what other stock, post privatisation was used?

Were 360s ever used on the Romford-Upminster? I thought I'd seen photos of it but not sure if I'm remembering correctly now.

315s and 317s were also used I believe

 

[Magdalia]

I recall First Great Eastern liveried 321s operating the Romford - Upminster shuttle before it transferred over to TFL to become part of the Overground, but what other stock, post privatisation was used?

In the last few years before transfer to TFL Romford-Upminster was usually a class 317.

I was told that this was for traction knowledge retention for Ilford drivers.

 

[christopher]

Only ever recall 315s, 317s and 321s since FGE days as a local. Not even sure 360s would have been cleared for it?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Prior to the use of 315s, it was 305s - although that was in early NSE days rather than GE days.

305 406 and 305 414 seen here in the late 1980s.

 

[tom1649]

I wonder if a 312 ever made the journey.

 

[Bishopstone]

I wonder if a 312 ever made the journey.

I don't think so, as the line operated driver-only once the 315s took over, in the NSE era.

The use of class 305s was quite short - only a year or so from electrification in May 1986, if memory serves me right.

Well before the class 321s worked the line regularly, 321 359 went to Upminster on a Sunday in August 1990, as a static exhibit in connection with an open day at the Underground depot.

 

[JBuchananGB]

The line was known locally as the “push n pull” which derived from a time, so I’m told, when a train consisting of two coaches with a steam engine sandwiched in th middle worked the line. Later than that I believe that a DMU used to come down from Ipswich to work the service. After at least two attempts by BR to close the line it was eventually electrified.

 

[Bishopstone]

The line was known locally as the “push n pull” which derived from a time, so I’m told, when a train consisting of two coaches with a steam engine sandwiched in th middle worked the line. Later than that I believe that a DMU used to come down from Ipswich to work the service. After at least two attempts by BR to close the line it was eventually electrified.

Still known as the push-pull to older residents, locally, despite DMUs having taken over c.1960!

The DMUs generally came from the Stratford allocation, which also provided units for Wickford-Southminster, Stratford-Tottenham Hale via Lea Bridge, and (I think) North Woolwich-Camden Road.

 

[Magdalia]

Still known as the push-pull to older residents, locally, despite DMUs having taken over c.1960!

DMU operation on Romford-Upminster started in 1956 with Metro Cammell lightweights based at Stratford.

In 1958 the Wickham sets worked Romford-Upminster when they were new.

 

[357]

Never saw a 360 working the branch during my years working there. 315/317/321

 

[Harpo]

The DMUs generally came from the Stratford allocation, which also provided units for Wickford-Southminster, Stratford-Tottenham Hale via Lea Bridge, and (I think) North Woolwich-Camden Road.

Mett-Camms mentioned above, 104, 105, 116s also appeared. Also a possibility that the 114s that briefly went to Stratford before going to Lincoln appeared. They certainly did Upminster -Grays and some LTS excursions.

In steam days there were through Romford -Grays workings.

 

[Bishopstone]

In the period immediately after electrification, I'm also now wondering whether the other slam door suburban EMU classes based on the Great Eastern - 302, 307, 308 - ever made an appearance on the line. As the EMU fleets were used interchangeably, to some extent, you would have thought they might have appeared occasionally, substituting for a 305.

However, I don't remember seeing anything other than 305s, until the 315s took over. An explanation may be delay in completing platform lengthening at Emerson Park, to accommodate four cars, though I thought this was finished before the line was energised.

 

[Bodiam]

This was the rather unimpressive set-up in 1976 -

 

[Harpo]

This was the rather unimpressive set-up in 1976 -

Yes. Blokes in enormous flares!

 

[D6130]

Last time I travelled on the line - in the mid-1970s - it was a two car Cravens class 105 DMU....and I was probably wearing enormous flares!

 

[Taunton]

I believe the line was electrified in 1986. It always seemed a bit of a surprising conversion, compared to say its twin Ealing to Greenford on the other side of London, and it would be interesting to compare why one but not the other. I went on it in the last days of diesel, it was indeed a Cravens 2-car set. It used to carry little traffic apart from at school times, I wonder what it does now. The passenger load in 1976 in the photo is surprising.

 

[Bishopstone]

Electrification was part of a scheme that included the Southminster and Harwich branches. With the ending of passenger services on the Stratford-Tottenham line, and third rail electrification of the North Woolwich line, DMU operation from Stratford was eliminated.

I suspect there was capacity in the GE EMU fleet to work Upminster, Southminster and Harwich without acquiring any new stock, pending arrival of the 321s in 1988.

I’m not sure why the Sudbury branch wasn’t included in this scheme, for completeness, as it left a remote diesel island which persists. Possibly the investment case was hopeless, and/or the viaduct at Chappel added excessive costs to an OHL scheme.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yes - it seemed to be the bastion of 2 car Cravens set DMU's for a long time - I seem to recall a semaphore signal om the Romford approaches to the wooden extended bay platform.

I believe the branch set went home to Stratford each evening as a staff train.

 

[Harpo]

Electrification was part of a scheme that included the Southminster and Harwich branches. With the ending of passenger services on the Stratford-Tottenham line, and third rail electrification of the North Woolwich line, DMU operation from Stratford was eliminated.

I’m not sure why the Sudbury branch wasn’t included in this scheme, for completeness, as it left a remote diesel island which persists.

Elimination of DMU facilities at the London end gave the business case to electrify Romford-Upminster. Hazy memory tells me that a new DMU maintenance facility would also have been needed imminently.

As Sudbury could be worked off of the Ipswich area DMU operations, it didn’t have a business case for electrification.

 

[JBuchananGB]

As a lad I was intrigued by the cast iron "No Trespassing" signs visible from the bridge at the Victoria Road/ Manor Road junction. They were headed up "Midland Railway", whereas similar signs nearer to my home at Gidea Park were headed up "London North Eastern Railway". In those days it was not possible to buy a ticket at Gidea Park to a destination on the London Tilbury & Southend involving travel via Romford & Upminster. Eventually I studied railway history and found out why!

 

[Taunton]

Elimination of DMU facilities at the London end gave the business case to electrify Romford-Upminster. Hazy memory tells me that a new DMU maintenance facility would also have been needed imminently.

There are of course such facilities elsewhere in London. Only a few miles away from Upminster is Barking, and the Goblin line, which seemed operated from a range of points over time, eventually ending up with classic dmus run from Old Oak Common.

 

[MadMac]

The ever-enlightening Railcar has a section on DMU operations in the area. Wasn’t this line’s service severely reduced at one point due to what we now call “anti-social behaviour“?

 

[Harpo]

As a lad I was intrigued by the cast iron "No Trespassing" signs visible from the bridge at the Victoria Road/ Manor Road junction. They were headed up "Midland Railway"….

All with a date on them (189x?) that preceded the MR’s 1912 takeover.

In those days it was not possible to buy a ticket at Gidea Park to a destination on the London Tilbury & Southend involving travel via Romford & Upminster. Eventually I studied railway history and found out why!

Romford was originally two separate stations with entrances opposite each other. The footbridge link wasn’t always open, so going from one to the other often involved going down to street level, crossing South Street and going back up again.

Stations everywhere are generally better integrated nowadays but inter-ticketting nonsense has been thoroughly re-invented.

 

[Bishopstone]

The ever-enlightening Railcar has a section on DMU operations in the area. Wasn’t this line’s service severely reduced at one point due to what we now call “anti-social behaviour“?

The evening service was threatened with withdrawal due to vandalism, in the late 80s, but after some stern talks by the police to assemblies in local secondary schools, it wasn’t necessary to implement this.

There was a particular problem with missiles being thrown at trains from the three secluded foot crossings, and I believe a driver may have been injured, prompting the unions to take-up the issue.

 

[Taunton]

All with a date on them (189x?) that preceded the MR’s 1912 takeover.

I think that may be the date of the relevant law, rather than when the sign was erected with the name of the company at the time.

The whole takeover of the LT&S by the Midland in 1912 was anyway driven by freight rather than passenger (let alone obscure branch) considerations. Tilbury Docks was expanding to take over London trade, and the Midland was best placed to route freight just on their system to other major cities.

Before 1960 some of the passenger service on the line, including its earliest dmu days, ran through from Romford to Grays and Tilbury, going right across the layout at Upminster. This stopped when the District Line depot was built at Upminster and the tracks were separated, with the only connection to this branch being then at the Romford end. I wonder if any freight from Tilbury Docks ever got onto the GEML this way.

 

[357]

The evening service was threatened with withdrawal due to vandalism, in the late 80s, but after some stern talks by the police to assemblies in local secondary schools, it wasn’t necessary to implement this.

There was a particular problem with missiles being thrown at trains from the three secluded foot crossings, and I believe a driver may have been injured, prompting the unions to take-up the issue.

From when I started until Overground takeover in 2015 the last train was 19:42 Nd returned at 20:03. Was that also the case in the 80s? There's not much more you can cut back earlier than that while still being a useful line!

 

[Bald Rick]

I believe the line was electrified in 1986. It always seemed a bit of a surprising conversion, compared to say its twin Ealing to Greenford on the other side of London, and it would be interesting to compare why one but not the other.

The main reason has been described above, but also to mention that the line had OLE at the stations at both ends, which of course Ealing to Greenford didn‘t in 1986. Therefore no need for a new power supply.

 

[Taunton]

The main reason has been described above, but also to mention that the line had OLE at the stations at both ends, which of course Ealing to Greenford didn‘t in 1986. Therefore no need for a new power supply.

I suspect having 25kV at Upminster was incidental, the branch and its single platform stub is completely separated from the Fenchurch Street route by having the District Line in between, and I believe there's been no pointwork between any of them since the 1960 rebuild.

Ealing does of course have 25kV now, but the way costs have gone sticking some of those spare masts left over from the GWML project truncation up to Greenford would get costed as if they were solid gold. Much better to mess about with the battery project, which seems to have made virtually no progress in the several years since it began. How long did they take to wire the Upminster branch?

 

[357]

I suspect having 25kV at Upminster was incidental, the branch and its single platform stub is completely separated from the Fenchurch Street route by having the District Line in between, and I believe there's been no pointwork between any of them since the 1960 rebuild.

I can confirm that Upminster Great Eastern is fed solely from Romford and has no connection to the LTS OHLE