Rolling stock allocation

[WillPS]

All this talk of DDA2020 - isn't there a problem with 158 doors as well? Could they be repositioned in to a 150/Turbostar-esque layout?

 

[sprinterguy]

Would I be right in thinking that this would be the first time that 156s have made a significant move. I'm sure the FSR 156s are all original Scotrail units, and the Northern 156s are all RR NW and RR NE units arn't they? Oviously some Central 156s moved to 'one' but that was hardly a major move considering when first delivered to RR Central they were based at Crown Point anyway and would have operated the same routes. All of the other Sprinter fleets have been moved around a lot.

Yeah, thinking about it, up til now the 156 allocation has stayed pretty stable, especially compared to the other Sprinter classes. The former RR NW and RR NE units do wander a bit further now round the north of england that they're just part of all encompassing northern but that's nothing radical.

I s'pose I could see the 153s being semi permanently coupled to a 156 at some future point, I agree there is a need for some extended 3 car Sprinter formations, like what was done on the S&C with spare 156 cars in the early nineties. Don't worry, I've got nothing against the little "tin rockets", they're useful little units and they've got damn good capacity for a one coach train, I just reckon that when Sprinter withdrawals eventually start taking place then the single carriage 153s would go first before the two car classes (unless they do get added to 156 formations). I'm not even suggesting it'll happen soon, they've got at least another decades life in them yet. And I am curious as to where the LM ones are going to go, I've heard plenty about the 150s geting snapped up, but nothing about the fate of the 153s. Anyone got any gen on this?

 

[RobShipway]

I had heard that they would be going to FGW to replace the pacers, so if this is true them I am presuming they would 153 coupled to class 153 unit as they where when they were introduced as Class 155 units.

I don't think this rumour is true though.

 

[D6975]

First major move of 156s?

Not unless you call reallocation of about 15 units from Cardiff to Scotland a minor move.
Yes, they were intended to end up in Scotland from the off, but they worked the Pompeys for a year or more before going North.

And regarding Scotrail's fleet, don't forget that they're getting new units for the Ayrshire lines later this year, which will probably see the 314s drop off the end of the cascade that ensues.

 

[tbtc]

Are there many routes these days that only need a single car unit these days?

I can't imagine a future class of single car unit being built in future

 

[sprinterguy]

Not unless you call reallocation of about 15 units from Cardiff to Scotland a minor move.
Yes, they were intended to end up in Scotland from the off, but they worked the Pompeys for a year or more before going North.

Ah fair enough, I wasn't savvy with that little bit of Sprinter history.

Are there many routes these days that only need a single car unit these days?

The Parry People Movers being used on the Stourbridge town branch could be seen as the successor to Sprinters on the most lightly used lines. I can see there being a few applications where the PPM design could be of use, but on the popular tourist branches, such as down in Cornwall, there's going to be a need for units wth higher capacity (than the PPMs), and I can't envisage more single car traditional style trains being built. Much more likely that, if there is eventually a need for new branch and secondary line DMUs, they'd be two carriage affairs. Although of course the 153s didn't start off their lives as single carriage units!

The 153s are very useful on lightly used secondary lines, and offer a useful boost to capacity when working in multiple and with other Sprinters (and Turbos), which is why I'm so surprised I've heard so little about future roles for those displaced at LM, as both Northern and GWT could do with lengthening quite a few of their services by adding a handy little Sprinter onto the current formations.

Yeah we've got the Ayrshire 380s to look forward to later this year, ugly looking brutes. But so long as they work (and being Siemens products they should do) and have less teething problems than the 334s I'll be happy. Am I right in thinking that the 314s are just going to be redeployed elsewhere in Scotland? Around the Edinburgh area electrified lines I thought, though my info on Scottish 'leccy units is a little sparse. I see what you mean D6975, the 314 cascade and other scots electrification works going on will probably cause a shake up of the diesel fleet.

 

[Ivo]

Just an idea, but when the 121s are finally withdrawn (which is hopefully some way off!), would a PPM be a suitable replacement, at least on the Bay Shuttle*?

*Was a 143 yesterday. Urgh!!!

 

[Pumbaa]

Update: All contracts signed earlier this week between DfT, ROSCOs and TOCs.

Set in stone:

15 150/1s to fGW from LM and LO
180s from NT to EC in 2011
fGW 142s back to NT in 2011
fGW 150s back to AW when other 150s arrive from LM
NT get extra 150s from LM on top of the 142s returning from fGW
EM gain 4 156s from NT
NT don't get the 158s back from Scotland!

Not yet confirmed, but likely:

LM keep a small number of 150s, could be as many as 10.
LM 153s bugger off elsewhere, probably EMT.
LM centre cars of 170/6s get given to XC.

Overall, NT has a gain of about 50 carriages by 2011, even when the 180s go. Numbers have been decided, but not all known.

All is dependant on the delivery of 172s now.
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Oh, and this turned up as well:

http://www.railway-technology.com/contractors/door/eao/eao2.html

The new "simple to use" toilet door panel :-?

 

[sprinterguy]

Keep 121s on the Bay shuttle forever!
I think the whole Cardiff valley lines would be a prime candidate for a self contained micro-franchise, using a few of those European low floor articulated diesel units (Bombardier do one, it's name escapes me). But yes I think the PPMs could do sterling work on the Cardiff Bay line.

What the hell is up with those new toilet door controls on the 172s??
Don't we already have enough different designs in use round the network on different classes? I suppose there's something a bit more reassuring about a door lock that actually has something substantial you can turn, but I actually thought the Bombardier controls (On the Voyagers etc) were the best of the bunch already, with all buttons.

Northern will never get it's hands on those 158s they loaned to Scotrail at this rate

Thanks Pumbaa for that update. That actually looks like a pretty decent deal all round. ATW could definitely do with a few more 150s knocking around! And a bit extra capacity for Northern wll be a good thing too. I'm sure EMT were fighting for a bit more than just an extra four 156s, so gaining the LM 153s would be a decent informed decision. I hope EM get 156420/1 to fill in that annoying little gap between their current units 156419 and 22.

If the LM 170s are losing their centre cars they better be using the 3 car 172s on the Birmingham-Hereford route at peak hours, or doubling up two 2 car sets, those trains get busy. Getting a third carriage into the XC 170/5s is definitely a sensible idea, so can we expect extra seats on the Birmingham-Stansted corridor then?

 

[Ivo]

Keep 121s on the Bay shuttle forever!
I think the whole Cardiff valley lines would be a prime candidate for a self contained micro-franchise, using a few of those European low floor articulated diesel units (Bombardier do one, it's name escapes me). But yes I think the PPMs could do sterling work on the Cardiff Bay line.

You mean like this...?
I must admit that the system certainly works in Merseyside, and from what I've seen so far I would say the same of the Overground. ATW are just too concerned with long-distance profits to even care particularly much about the Valley Lines. As for introducing a common "low-floor" fleet, I'm not sure... I think that the lines are a bit too awkward for that to work. But certainly introduce a LO/ME -esque "common" fleet.

 

[sprinterguy]

Haha yeah, I always liked the idea behind the old Valley Lines franchise, I always seem to think that Valley Lines looked after a bit more than just those lines. What I should have said that I'd like to see it go back to something like that, oops

Ok admittedly "low floor" as concerns entrance doors would be difficult to work around Britain's high station platforms, I meant something like the Bombardier Talent DMU:

There is a high floor version too. So yeah just a modern, common fleet for the Valley Lines. Thanks for the correction, these things often slip my mind!

 

[devon_metro]

Northern have done well, gaining 7 well maintained 142s with a half respectable interior, however I suspect that will be rectified.

 

[Ivo]

Northern have done well, gaining 7 well maintained 142s with a half respectable interior, however I suspect that will be rectified.

That may be true, but the fact remains that they have gained 7 142s! Who in the right sense of mind would want those things?

 

[Pumbaa]

If the LM 170s are losing their centre cars they better be using the 3 car 172s on the Birmingham-Hereford route at peak hours, or doubling up two 2 car sets, those trains get busy. Getting a third carriage into the XC 170/5s is definitely a sensible idea, so can we expect extra seats on the Birmingham-Stansted corridor then?

That would seem to be the idea. The retention of 150s is to work Bedford - Bletchley and the odd Brum - Walsall - Rugeley, which as per franchise conditions need to be 3 cars in peaks.

 

[ukrob]

That may be true, but the fact remains that they have gained 7 142s! Who in the right sense of mind would want those things?

People who can't physically get on to trains because they are short formed?

 

[tbtc]

Overall, NT has a gain of about 50 carriages by 2011, even when the 180s go

...just a shame they are mainly Pacers :-x

Still, a fairly logical set of swapping overall (not being biased as a user of Northern); XC benefits (new centre cars), Scotrail benefits (through not losing the 158s they won't need once the Bathgate line is wired), FGW benefits (get ride of the Pacers and replace them with better 150s, EMT get enough stock to increase the Nottingham - Liverpool capacity (plus some "spare" 153s to boost capacity elsewhere), ATW get their 150s back and LM get a brand new trainset to play with.

What I don't understand is why London Midland get to buy all these brand new trains; are the Snow Hill routes really much more profitable than equivalent commuter routes around Bristol/ Cardiff/ Manchester/ Leeds etc? Presumably this is mainly because DFT want to keep classes together, so want all new stock to go to the one place?

Does anyone know what LM would use the 150s and 153s it keeps on? Just capacity enhancement?

Thanks to all who have posted the figures
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Northern have done well, gaining 7 well maintained 142s with a half respectable interior, however I suspect that will be rectified.

I thought you hated the tatty things down there?

You're welcome to keep them - Pacers are ideal for (mainly) self contained branchlines where there's no chance of them being hit by anything "bigger"

 

[Pumbaa]

Does anyone know what LM would use the 150s and 153s it keeps on? Just capacity enhancement?

The 153s are more than likely going to go. 150s kept to operate Bedford - Bletchley and peak time workings such as Walsall - Rugeley. It could be as few as 5 150s left for LM, but it could be as many as 15. LM want 30 cars left behind, but DfT want them sent elsewhere. It will all become clear in due course.

Didn't mention but the 150s that get sent to fGW will have a full mechanical overhaul before entering service - to eliminate the sub-fleet differences and make their entire 150 fleet identical. Good idea in my opinion!

 

[sprinterguy]

tbtc, Pumbaa just mentioned the routes the remaining LM 150s will be used on, so there you have it

150s on the Birmingham-Walsall-Rugeley route would be a backward step surely, they've got 2 car 170s coupled to 153s at the moment. I was hoping some of the three car 172s would be destined for that route.

A 142 is better than no train at all (or a short formed one you can't get on), and now that I'm living in Pacer free Birmingham these days, I feel all nostalgic whenever I catch one round Manchester or Newcastle now Power to the Pacer haha, questionable crashworthiness and all.

London Midland are obviously prepared to stump up the cash to lease new trains, unlike the companies prevalent in the other cities mentioned.

 

[tbtc]

The 153s are more than likely going to go. 150s kept to operate Bedford - Bletchley and peak time workings such as Walsall - Rugeley

Thanks Pumbaa

Didn't mention but the 150s that get sent to fGW will have a full mechanical overhaul before entering service - to eliminate the sub-fleet differences and make their entire 150 fleet identical. Good idea in my opinion!

Excellent idea; whilst I agree with the DFT idea of keeping certain uni types together, there can be some big differences between units within a class (e.g. EMT's 158s are from different batches, so have different engines). Good to see these units get an overhaul that extends beyond just fitting new seat covers; they should be good for many a year in the south west
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A 142 is better than no train at all (or a short formed one you can't get on),

True, and having been turned off commuter trains in the past (that people couldn't physically squeeze on), I have to agree.

However, Northern are losing 156s, losing 180s and not getting "their" planned 158s back, meaning a number of these cascaded FGW Pacers will be replacing better trains.

Fair enough if the 142s are just going to double up on busy routes, I'm all for that (apart from the lack of corridor connection - a personal bugbear), but some will invariably be used in place of a 156/ 180 or where a 158 *should* have been used

Overall a good set of swaps though, don't get me wrong

 

[sprinterguy]

Yeah a decent overhaul for the FGW bound 150s is an excellent idea.

Northern have been talking about taking on loco hauled formations to replace the 180 diagrams (there's a separate thread about it on here somewhere), it's with this in mind that I can deal with the loss of a few 156s in exchange for 142s. If this fails to happen, then I too will be less than satisfied with the loss of good quality Sprinter units in exchange for yet more Pacers. Northern have many more class 158 units now than they did a couple of years ago, as long as they are diagrammed appropriately then a reasonable level of service can be provided across Northern's "realm".

I think the swaps are the best that could be expected, though I too will admit that Northern is at some risk of coming out the poor relation in it all, but I think it could have come out a lot worse.

 

[350401]

The big question with the reshuffle for Northern is how many 150's will they get? The 7 142's gained are more than compensated for by loosing 3 180's and 4 156's - i.e. Northern loose big time here - 23 coaches replaced by 14 coaches. Hardly fair, as usual. Especially given the fact that the 180s and 156's represent the "best" units Northern has.

For the shuffle to be at least neutral to Northern, they have to gain 9 additional coaches - i.e. 4/5 class 150s. And we are seriously short of rolling stock up here, gaining 5 150s would represent standing still, NT really need to gain 10 150s, if not 15 of the units, to make any headway into the serious overcrowding present up here.

 

[Pumbaa]

15 3-car 150s at least, maybe more. Will find out fully within a few weeks.

 

[350401]

If that happens, that would be great news for Northern. Fingers crossed. And given 150s are (generally as far as I am aware) Newton Heath units, they should stay on the West side and sort out the over-crowding in Greater Manchester and Merseyside - no chance of Yorkshire-men pilfering the units off to Leeds and beyond

 

[WatcherZero]

Khan has just announced the Dft will fund the 5 pacers from the former Oldham line (that GMPTE have been funding off their own back because Dft wanted to move them down south or store them) from July 2010.

http://nds.coi.gov.uk/clientmicrosi...02&NewsAreaId=2&ReleaseID=411911&SubjectId=36

The Oldham Loop is now closed so that it can be converted into an extension of the Metrolink network. The extra DfT funding announced today will allow carriages formerly in use on the Oldham Loop to be used to lengthen 15 peak time services on the routes to and from New Mills, Huddersfield, Southport, Clitheroe, Todmorden, Wigan, Marple, and Blackburn. An evening peak service between Leeds and Huddersfield will also be lengthened.

 

[tbtc]

If that happens, that would be great news for Northern. Fingers crossed. And given 150s are (generally as far as I am aware) Newton Heath units, they should stay on the West side and sort out the over-crowding in Greater Manchester and Merseyside - no chance of Yorkshire-men pilfering the units off to Leeds and beyond

Despite living in Yorkshire, I think I agree with you there. The 180s will be "lost" to Lancashire, and I presume the 156s will also come from the the wrong side of t'Pennines, so its only fair that you get the majority of the 142s etc sent to compensate.

Unless the 156s are coming from the Newcastle/ Middlesbrough allocation of them?

 

[devon_metro]

I thought you hated the tatty things down there?

You're welcome to keep them - Pacers are ideal for (mainly) self contained branchlines where there's no chance of them being hit by anything "bigger"

They are acceptable, FGW has done an excellent job maintaining them and they've been refreshed from the original condition as arrived from up north.

They give some nice coastal views due to the low seats and lots of windows! Otherwise, they aren't great. Slow, unsafe and don't provide enough capacity in Devon

 

[WatcherZero]

Not even enough in Devon? how frequent are they, or are they being used for intercity like routes (Isnt there only one city in the county)?

 

[Drsatan]

Not even enough in Devon? how frequent are they, or are they being used for intercity like routes (Isnt there only one city in the county)?

142s and 143s are used on Barnstaple - Exmouth and Exmouth - Paignton services. The odd 150 or 153 (usually coupled to another 153 or a 142) turns up on these services as well.

Services on the Exmouth branch are half-hourly, and hourly to Paignton and Barnstaple.

I travelled on a 142 to Barnstaple and return last Saturday and wasn't impressed. As Devon Metro's said, you do enjoy good views from the windows, and IMO they feel less claustrophobic than the 158s due to the low-backed seats. But, the low-backed seats don't provide much support, and the ride quality whenever the pacer hits jointed track is absolutely ****e. Oh, and the sink in the toilet had run out of water.

A 170 or, better still, top and tailed 47s with a rake of Mk2s would be better for the passenger than a pacer!

 

[Ivo]

Not even enough in Devon? how frequent are they, or are they being used for intercity like routes (Isnt there only one city in the county)?

Not including the Unitary Authority of Plymouth, Exeter is the only city in Devon.

 

[starrymarkb]

But, the low-backed seats don't provide much support, and the ride quality whenever the pacer hits jointed track is absolutely ****e. Oh, and the sink in the toilet had run out of water.

Also the 15x's are more suited to rough Devon track.

Exhibit A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya1hG7F_EPg
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya1hG7F_EPg[/youtube]