Rolling stock allocation

[WatcherZero]

Thats new track!

 

[devon_metro]

Not including the Unitary Authority of Plymouth, Exeter is the only city in Devon.

Plymouth is in Devon. Devon is a county, not a Council.

 

[AlexS]

Just as long as they don't start the running 2 car trains Birmingham to Shrewsbury game again in the peaks. Since they withdrew the 3rd service in the hour, 4 cars are full and standing, let alone the 3 cars. 2 cars would not cope.

 

[Zoe]

Not including the Unitary Authority of Plymouth, Exeter is the only city in Devon.

Plymouth and Torbay are not part of Devon County Council, however they are both still in the ceremonial county of Devon.

 

[DjU]

180s from NT to EC in 2011

Not yet confirmed, but likely:

LM keep a small number of 150s, could be as many as 10.
LM 153s bugger off elsewhere, probably EMT.
LM centre cars of 170/6s get given to XC.

It is becoming increasingly likely and apparent that the 180s will leave Northern THIS summer - according to someone on Northern Railways forum, the 180s contract ends on 1st July 2010 and no extension seem to be happening.

There are obviously the strong rumours and innuendo that Northern are going to have some loco hauled service to combat the capacity problems, this likely links in with the vacating 180s

Also somebody on wnxx mentioned that fGW *may* be getting up to 5 of the 153s

 

[jopsuk]

LM centre cars of 170/6s get given to XC.

Would the LM /6s then become /5s and the XC /5s then become /6s? As i understand it, the primary difference between those subclasses is number of cars? Would still leave XC with 6 out of 29 170s being 2 car, with NXEA being the only other operator running two different lengths of them (8 x 3, 4 x 2)

 

[WatcherZero]

Another Day another minor cascade, Northern giving 8 carriages to Midland and reciving 16 itself (net gain of 8 )

ommuters in the North West are set to benefit from longer trains on peak services thanks to a £17.8m Government funding boost, Transport Minister Chris Mole announced today.
Eight extra carriages are being provided on Northern Rail routes serving Liverpool and Manchester providing capacity for over 1,000 more passengers coming into the cities in the morning peak.

Meanwhile eight more carriages will be used to double the length of almost all services on East Midlands Trains services running into Manchester and Liverpool providing capacity for over 800 more passengers coming into the cities in the morning peak.

Chris Mole said:

"These extra 16 carriages will enable passengers on these routes to travel in greater comfort and ensure that this service keeps pace with the unprecedented growth in rail passengers.

"More people than ever in recent times are choosing to travel by train and it's vital we keep pace with this growth. We have pledged to introducing an extra 1,300 rail carriages onto the rail network and today's announcement is part of that commitment."

Ian Bevan, Managing Director of Northern Rail, said:

“We’re delighted that today’s announcement will mean more carriages for passengers travelling on some of our busiest routes across the north of England.

"Over 85 million journeys are made on our services every year, an increase of 34% in just five years, which is why we’ve been working closely with the Department for Transport and other partners to introduce the much needed extra carriages that will enable us to provide a more comfortable journey for passengers.”

David Horne, Commercial Director for East Midlands Trains said:

“This is fantastic news for our passengers and brings a successful conclusion to almost two years of partnership working with stakeholder groups along the route to secure these improvements.

“We have been determined to increase capacity on our busy Liverpool to Norwich route, a route which covers some 250 miles and serves cities with a combined population of more than 7 million people. The additional funding secured will allow us to provide over 1,500 extra seats on the route every day from 2011 and will go a long way to alleviating the current overcrowding on many services.

“We would like to thank our passengers and stakeholders for their steadfast support in helping us to bring about these improvements.”

The additional carriages will come into service in May 2011. Full details of the service improvements are available from Northern Rail and East Midlands Trains.




Notes for editors


The eight extra carriages East Midlands Trains are receiving are being released from Northern Rail, which is also receiving additional carriages. The East Midlands Trains carriages are being funded by a Government contribution of £9.9m to March 2015. The Northern Rail carriages are being funded by a Government contribution of £7.9m to September 2013.

Total number of extra spaces being created in Morning Peak (07:00 to 10:00) -
Manchester 630
Liverpool 210
Sheffield 420
Nottingham 210
From December 2012, this will further increase to:
Total number of extra spaces being created in Morning Peak (07:00 to 10:00)
Manchester 840
Liverpool 210
Sheffield 630
Nottingham 420
3. The eight additional carriages Northern Rail is receiving will provide the following extra spaces in the morning peak from May 2011:
Total number of extra spaces being created in Morning Peak (07:00 to 10:00)
Manchester 952
Liverpool 126
Sheffield 137

 

[DjU]

Another Day another minor cascade, Northern giving 8 carriages to Midland and reciving 16 itself (net gain of 8 )

Thats not really 'another' cascade. Its merely the public announcement of the deals that have already been mentioned in this thread.

i.e

The 4x 156 to EMT (to free up the 158 to provide the new capacity)
and the extra 150/142s to Northern (whilst you're right they will only get a net gain of 8 carriages, Northern will receive more than 16 carriages - its just that they all be replacements stock its had pinched from them, therefore can't be spun as new capacity!)

 

[tbtc]

Eight extra carriages are being provided on Northern Rail routes serving Liverpool and Manchester providing capacity for over 1,000 more passengers coming into the cities in the morning peak.

Meanwhile eight more carriages will be used to double the length of almost all services on East Midlands Trains services

I think 99% of people reading that would read that as "twenty four more carriages for Liverpool/ Manchester" rather than "eight new carriages for Liverpool/ Manchester" - lies, damned lies and press releases!

 

[DjU]

I think 99% of people reading that would read that as "twenty four more carriages for Liverpool/ Manchester" rather than "eight new carriages for Liverpool/ Manchester" - lies, damned lies and press releases!

Considering only the number 8 is used I'm not sure how you'd come to that assumption.

PR and press release are devious and clever things but you'd have to be completely mis reading the thing to get to 24

 

[northwichcat]

I think 99% of people reading that would read that as "twenty four more carriages for Liverpool/ Manchester" rather than "eight new carriages for Liverpool/ Manchester" - lies, damned lies and press releases!

EMT have put it on their website in clear English: http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk...orpassengersusingLiverpooltoNorwichroute_.htm

On BBC North West Today Gordon Burns announced that Northern Rail will get 8 new trains for extra capacity, instead of EMT getting 8 cascaded carriages.

 

[Pumbaa]

Yes it's 8 x 150 to Northern releasing 4 x 156 to EMT.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/2010/03/passenger-focus-on-nutrains.html

The Fact Compiler provides an excellent mockery of todays announcement.

 

[royaloak]

so that is-
London overground gets 8x2 coach new 172s=16 coaches
which releases 8x2 coach 150s to Northern = 16 coaches
which releases 4x2 coach 156s to East Midlands= 8 coaches

so LO net gain 0 carriages
Northern gains 8 coaches
East M T gains 8 carriages

Grand total 16 "new" carriages introduced which will no doubt be spun as 40 new ones, or am I being a pessimist
I know LO have more 172s on order but they dont form part of the cascade.

 

[tbtc]

Considering only the number 8 is used I'm not sure how you'd come to that assumption.

PR and press release are devious and clever things but you'd have to be completely mis reading the thing to get to 24

Chris Mole said:

"These extra 16 carriages

I think most people would think 16 new + 8 new = 24 new, which is how the PR guys seem to want to spin it
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

so that is-
London overground gets 8x2 coach new 172s=16 coaches
which releases 8x2 coach 150s to Northern = 16 coaches
which releases 4x2 coach 156s to East Midlands= 8 coaches

so LO net gain 0 carriages
Northern gains 8 coaches
East M T gains 8 carriages

Grand total 16 "new" carriages introduced which will no doubt be spun as 40 new ones, or am I being a pessimist

Do you (or anyone) know what the difference in seats will be (presumably the disabled toilet etc on the 172 will mean a two car 172 has fewer seats than a two car 150?

I know LO have more 172s on order but they dont form part of the cascade.

I'm sure when the next 172s come along we'll have a similar issue with the displaced 150s moving to Devon to release 142s to Northern. Its like a never ending cycle (where everyone looks like they are better off until they check the small print)

 

[northwichcat]

so that is-
London overground gets 8x2 coach new 172s=16 coaches
which releases 8x2 coach 150s to Northern = 16 coaches
which releases 4x2 coach 156s to East Midlands= 8 coaches

so LO net gain 0 carriages
Northern gains 8 coaches
East M T gains 8 carriages

Grand total 16 "new" carriages introduced which will no doubt be spun as 40 new ones, or am I being a pessimist
I know LO have more 172s on order but they dont form part of the cascade.

As this is for next May and the London Overground 172s were due to be in service this May, then isn't this cascade following the first delivery of the London Midland 172s?

Northern need replacement carriages for the 180s this year so either the London Overground 150s or FGW 142s will have to go north for Northern to keep around the same number of carriages as they currently have.

 

[DjU]

I think most people would think 16 new + 8 new = 24 new, which is how the PR guys seem to want to spin it

I think you've proved my point.

1st Para
'Eight extra carriages are being provided on Northern Rail routes'

2nd Para
'Meanwhile eight more carriages will be used to double the length of almost all services on East Midlands Trains'

3rd
'Chris Mole (Transport Minister) said:
"These extra 16 carriages ...." '

8 + 8 = 16
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

so that is-
London overground gets 8x2 coach new 172s=16 coaches
which releases 8x2 coach 150s to Northern = 16 coaches
which releases 4x2 coach 156s to East Midlands= 8 coaches

so LO net gain 0 carriages
Northern gains 8 coaches
East M T gains 8 carriages

Grand total 16 "new" carriages introduced which will no doubt be spun as 40 new ones, or am I being a pessimist
I know LO have more 172s on order but they dont form part of the cascade.

No.

LO only have 6 150s - they gave up the other two units over 2 years ago when LOROL took over due to them not needing all of them with the 20 minute timetable - FGW have had them since. With the plan to go to the new 15 minute timetable LOROL will require 8 units.

Secondly these remaining six LO 150's (along with 9x LM units) are going to FGW not to Northern - Northern are getting all their 150s from London Midland, therefore its going to take longer for them to arrive.

LO gets 8x2 coach new 172s=16 coaches
which releases 6x2 coach 150s to FGW = 12 coaches
(these will release either 4x2 coach 150's back to ATW
OR the 2x Loco hauled services)

The remaining FGW 150's and all of Northerns 150's a don't get released until London Midland gets there 69 172s coaches (12x 2 car and 15x 3 car)

Northern likely won't get the 142s from FGW until FGW get their 9 150's from LM.

EMT likely won't get 156s until everybody else is set - that is unless any other plans can be put in place to cover the early release of these units.

DfT/Northern are most probably going to have to find short term replacements for the 180s once they go (as they don't look to ever be getting the 158s back from ScotRail) until the full 150 cascade happens.

Everything is precariously balanced on the delivery of the 172s so has the likely hood of all going tits up!

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Did see a headline on the transport briefing site today (I dont subscribe) 48 LM vehicles to go elsewhere.
So that will leave 24 class 150 trucks with LM, the two prototypes, the two 150/0s with surplus 57XXX cars and the 150/2 centre cars that match.
Result 4 x 3 car sets and 6 x 2 car sets!

What ever happened to the 26 extra 172 items in the plan (1300 extra?)

 

[royaloak]

- Northern are getting all their 150s from London Midland, therefore its going to take longer for them to arrive.

So in my post above its LM instead of LO, but the rest of it stands up, those 16 new coaches will be spun to look like 40!

 

[tbtc]

Do LM get (many) more units from the changes?

They seem to lose a two car 150 for each new two car 172, plus losing the centre cars from the 170s to XC...

 

[DjU]

Do LM get (many) more units from the changes?

They seem to lose a two car 150 for each new two car 172, plus losing the centre cars from the 170s to XC...

Thats an illusion of numbers that they are losing that many 2 car units due to how they are formed.

2 x 150/0 (3 car prototype)
24 x 150/1 (2 car)
8 x 150/2 (2 car)
2 x 150/2 front halfs (so possibly a future loo-less 9th unit or kept in 2x 3car hybrids)

but this is currently formed as;
2 x 150/0 (3 car prototype)
14 x 150/1 (3 car hybrids)
10 x 150/1 (2 car)
2 x 150/2 (2 car)

LM new fleet will be;
12 x 2 car Class 172/2
15 x 3 car Class 172/3

So they technically were technically to loose a 3 car unit but then again I don't think the two 150/0 are the most reliable - so swings and roundabouts

With the news LM will probably keep a small fleet of 150 they would be up on units but this then countered by loss of 6x 170 centre cars and the loss of all there 153 dog boxes.

 

[tbtc]

Thats an illusion of numbers that they are losing that many 2 car units due to how they are formed.

2 x 150/0 (3 car prototype)
24 x 150/1 (2 car)
8 x 150/2 (2 car)
2 x 150/2 front halfs (so possibly a future loo-less 9th unit or kept in 2x 3car hybrids)

but this is currently formed as;
2 x 150/0 (3 car prototype)
14 x 150/1 (3 car hybrids)
10 x 150/1 (2 car)
2 x 150/2 (2 car)

LM new fleet will be;
12 x 2 car Class 172/2
15 x 3 car Class 172/3

So they technically were technically to loose a 3 car unit but then again I don't think the two 150/0 are the most reliable - so swings and roundabouts

With the news LM will probably keep a small fleet of 150 they would be up on units but this then countered by loss of 6x 170 centre cars and the loss of all there 153 dog boxes.

Thanks for explaining - I get easily lost with the "robbing Peter to pay Paul" maths...

 

[DjU]

What ever happened to the 26 extra 172 items in the plan (1300 extra?)

The same thing as the extra 16 extra Class 350 carriages and all all 323 going to LM.

The magical HLOS black hole of non-information!


The 350s follow on order obviously got shunted away and LM had to keep on some 321s

DfT quickly changed there mind about the 323s and decided it better to get new stock for LM and consolidate the 323s at Northern. They sent out a tender an everything. But it all been quiet since...especially since the electrification announcement...
(Edit: Unlike the 202 car DMU order for the South West which got publicly cancelled this one seems to of slipped away unnoticed!)

The extra 26x 172 carriages disappeared completely! Never to be mentioned again!

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Do LM get (many) more units from the changes?

They seem to lose a two car 150 for each new two car 172, plus losing the centre cars from the 170s to XC...

LM have 72 150 vehicles, are getting 69 172's plus keeping 24 150's (only 48 are going)

Who says 170 centre cars and 153's are going?

Net gain 21 except the 172's have less seats than the 150's

 

[tbtc]

LM have 72 150 vehicles, are getting 69 172's plus keeping 24 150's (only 48 are going)

Who says 170 centre cars and 153's are going?

Net gain 21 except the 172's have less seats than the 150's

Cheers.

I thought it was announced that the centre cars from (some?) 170s were going to Cross Country for its Stanstead service when LM get the new trains. But, with all the announcements recently, some things get quietly "dropped" as DjU says

 

[Pumbaa]

Who says 170 centre cars and 153's are going?

It is highly likely - the swing from keeping the extra 150s (LM wanted more than the 8 2-cars they were set to keep) is that their 153s get shoved out. All 170+153 workings and 150 3-car workings can be covered by the 172s so no loss to them.

I haven't been told since last week re 170 centre coaches - see back up the thread for where I posted it originally.

 

[350401]

*Rumour* has that Northern are gaining in the region of 15 2-car class 150's from LM, in addition to the 8 2-car 150's that have been announced as transferring northwards. GMPTE's transport subsidy has just doubled, from £39 million to £79 million, so they've finally got serious. Obviously LM will keep some 150's, but I can't see them keeping 24 150's and gaining all the new stock, having unit surpluses, whilst Northern and FGW go short.

Then again, a fair few Mandarins do live in the Midlands....

Edit - 100th post -

 

[DjU]

*Rumour* has that Northern are gaining in the region of 15 2-car class 150's from LM, in addition to the 8 2-car 150's that have been announced as transferring northwards. GMPTE's transport subsidy has just doubled, from £39 million to £79 million, so they've finally got serious. Obviously LM will keep some 150's, but I can't see them keeping 24 150's and gaining all the new stock, having unit surpluses, whilst Northern and FGW go short.

Then again, a fair few Mandarins do live in the Midlands....

Edit - 100th post -

The 15 2-car class 150's from LM, likely includes the 8 announced ones.

The other 7x 150 (plus 7x 142s) can't really be announced in a big fanfare as they will be for plugging the 8x 158 (currently 3x 180) sized gap they already have! Very minimal capacity increase on the whole.

It'll be interesting to see if LM do keep 24x 150 carriages!

 

[LE Greys]

Who says 170 centre cars and 153's are going?

Anyone have any idea where they are going?

How's this for a crazy idea? TOCs should order and dispose of stock themselves without consulting anyone else - direct from the manufacturers if neessary.

 

[MCR247]

Anyone have any idea where they are going?

How's this for a crazy idea? TOCs should order and dispose of stock themselves without consulting anyone else - direct from the manufacturers if neessary.

The 170 middle cars to XC, who I heard would then give LM the remaining 2 car ones as XC then wouldn't need 2x170 on some diagrams

 

[tbtc]

The 170 middle cars to XC, who I heard would then give LM the remaining 2 car ones as XC then wouldn't need 2x170 on some diagrams

That makes too much sense!