Rolling stock allocation

[Mojo]

From the Eye: http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/2010/03/rolling-stock-news-daft-shuffles.html

142s leave FGW in return for 150s from LO and LM

180s leave NT in return for 142s from FGW and 150s

EMT gets 156s from NT

 

[Pumbaa]

To add, 153s to leave LM and go elsewhere when 172s arrive next year, some 150s to be retained for Bedford - Bletchley.

 

[Fudgefrog]

From the Eye: http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/2010/03/rolling-stock-news-daft-shuffles.html

142s leave FGW in return for 150s from LO and LM

180s leave NT in return for 142s from FGW and 150s

EMT gets 156s from NT

Where are the 180s going? I know they were destined for East Coast, but there had been much speculation East Coast didn't want them. Are they getting them after all?

 

[Ivo]

Are we going to lose all of our 142s, or only some? I'm sure that someone will complain if the Pacers leave the West of England...

Please be all?

 

[WatcherZero]

Im really tired of being a second class rail citizen just because I live in the North, though to be fair I guess Scotrail has it equally as bad.

 

[CarterUSM]

Don't kid yourself, we're miles better off. We don't have pacers.

 

[Failed Unit]

Where are the 180s going? I know they were destined for East Coast, but there had been much speculation East Coast didn't want them. Are they getting them after all?

The need the 180's to be able to operate to Lincoln, as the service won't start until 2011 and they already have some for driver training I guess Northern won't need to release them in that quickly!
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Im really tired of being a second class rail citizen just because I live in the North, though to be fair I guess Scotrail has it equally as bad.

Scotrail has it bad

Lets have a look at its DMU fleet,
156, 158, 170 (not a pacer or 153 in sight)

Now the EMU fleet
314's (past thier best)
318, 320, 322, 334's

It has one of the best fleets for a regional operator in the UK and certainly doesn't have the overcrowing issues experienced in other parts of the UK. I am sure that the PIX figures for trains going into Edinburgh and Glasgow are a lot lower than they are going into Leeds and Manchester.

Credit to Transport Scotland, they invested in the 170's that enables the 150/2's to be cascade. I would hate to think of the conditions on the E&G line if they didn't and were still 3 cars! Probably like you have on the Leeds - Manc TPE route now!

 

[starrymarkb]

Im really tired of being a second class rail citizen just because I live in the North, though to be fair I guess Scotrail has it equally as bad.

Try living out West, only post privatisation stock down here is Voyagers (we used to get a couple of 180 trips as far as Exeter, and the occasional rogue Turbostar when SWT had them) - Our Pacers were only on loaned from Northern but the Wessex 158s moved permanently. We have 150 & Pacers doing 3-4 hour runs

In the North you have 333s 170s, 180s, & 185s - as well as the 222s & 390s on intercity runs

 

[Mojo]

Please don't assume that everywhere up North has it bad. Birmingham's rail system is excellent, as is Liverpool and Manchester with its local rail and light rail systems is living the high life. Tyne/Wear's Metro is also second to none and the trams in Sheffield and Nottingham; whilst the networks, still a bit limited, are fantastic.

Don't mention lower fares than the South East (on many lines passengers had to put up with Mk1 rolling stock until farely recently) and the importance of the South East compared to the North.

 

[snowhill]

I agree with Mojo that Birmingham has an excellent rail system, buses too, but not so happy with the suggestion that we are somewhere "up North".

This is the Midlands, the centre of England and the "2nd City!". London is "down South" and Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield etc are "up North"

 

[Geezertronic]

I agree with Mojo that Birmingham has an excellent rail system, buses too, but not so happy with the suggestion that we are somewhere "up North".

This is the Midlands, the centre of England and the "2nd City!". London is "down South" and Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield etc are "up North"

Anywhere north of Watford Gap is "up North" to some people

 

[WatcherZero]

Our Fares are cheaper because we are spending our PTE money on subsidy (compare rail ticket Blackburn to Wigan with a ticket for Blackburn-Bolton-Wigan which is much cheaper), im sure TfL subsides its services as well.

 

[Pumbaa]

im sure TfL subsides its services as well.

Have you seen how little cash TfL has recently? They can't afford bog roll, let alone subsidies!

 

[starrymarkb]

Anywhere north of Watford Gap is "up North" to some people

Anywhere north of Bristol don't you mean

 

[CarterUSM]

Birmingham? Second city? This may be the case nowadays and by default with population but Glasgow was always the second city of the empire. it also has a great network, strathclyde anyway, with decent rolling stock and not a great amount of overcrowding due to good use of it also. Could do with crossrail between central and queen st but this looks prohibitively expensive.

 

[WatcherZero]

Have you seen how little cash TfL has recently? They can't afford bog roll, let alone subsidies!

TFL bus subsidy was £574m falling to £452m from 2010-2018, in 2000 they only paid £24m thats how fast and large its risen. Until this year they funded free bus, rail and tram travel on new years eve every year. London Underground revieves £1.2bn of national subsidy each year, coincidentally the same figure being spent on fares subsidy in the last year of their accounts I can find (2006) £1,249m

 

[Ivo]

Birmingham? Second city? This may be the case nowadays and by default with population but Glasgow was always the second city of the empire. it also has a great network, strathclyde anyway, with decent rolling stock and not a great amount of overcrowding due to good use of it also. Could do with crossrail between central and queen st but this looks prohibitively expensive.

Not to mention the claims of Manchester in the modern era...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Could do with crossrail between central and queen st but this looks prohibitively expensive.

We're right off topic now, but . . . it WOULDN'T have been so expensive if the opportunity was taken a couple of years ago!
The amount of central land clearance in Glasgow to enable the linking of M8 and M74 roads was astonishing. The new bridges sweep right over the WCML coming out of Glasgow Central AND the under-used river bridge just to the east (sorry, I don't know its name - double tracked - links Belgrove Stn and King Street with Gorbals Street behind the Mosque then to Shields Road TMD).
Just one chord round the mosque could have linked Central Stn with Queen Street - directly to the high level lines via Cowlairs, and indirectly to the lines serving the lower platforms from Airdrie.
Just one chord over cleared land, and we could have run WCML into Queen Street and services from the north and east into Central. Missed the chance now.

 

[CarterUSM]

Yes, it was pretty shortsighted to say the least. It is called the city union line, though it goes over the WCML at just about eglinton street junction. Not sure about the name of the bridge, though i'll try and find out. Sorry about going off topic.
EDIT. City union bridge.

 

[Mojo]

I agree with Mojo that Birmingham has an excellent rail system, buses too, but not so happy with the suggestion that we are somewhere "up North".

This is the Midlands, the centre of England and the "2nd City!". London is "down South" and Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield etc are "up North"

I disagree, Birmingham is "up North" and is little different to many Northern cities, like Geezertronic says I think the only regions in the South are East, London, South East and South West, and the rest by default must be in the North.

Our Fares are cheaper because we are spending our PTE money on subsidy (compare rail ticket Blackburn to Wigan with a ticket for Blackburn-Bolton-Wigan which is much cheaper), im sure TfL subsides its services as well.

Regardless of whether that is true or not, just like only a tiny part of the South East is in the TfL area; who I'm pretty sure don't subsidise fares; not all of the North is, and fares even outside the PTE areas still on average tend to be cheaper. Let's not mention though where most PTE money comes from

 

[sprinterguy]

Aha, the old chestnut of the north south divide. Let's not get into that one, I've seen those kinds of arguments rage for days! Safe to say that I'm a Sunderland lad that's now living in Birmingham, so to me Brum will always be south Variety is the spice of life, it would be boring if we all thought the same. I love people's different interpretations of "north" and "south".

"180s from Northern in exchange for 142s and 150s"? That doesn't sound like a very fair deal to me...Is it just me, or does it seem that now that second generation unit cascades are underway, that the Northern fleet is actually getting WORSE?? If they're losing 156s to EMT, and regaining GWTs 142s, that doesn't sound like an exactly equal exchange. Although I most certainly agree that 150s are more suitable for the Devon branches than those dratted 142s.

I initially read (a couple of months ago) that EMT were gaining the 150s from LM, which didn't really add up to me, this idea of Northern gaining the 150s in exhange for losing some 156s to EMT sounds much more rational.

I wonder where LMs 153s will end up? I personally believe that they will be the first of the "Sprinter" classes to go when it comes to it.

Yes East Coast is still taking the 180s for York and Lincoln services; the remainder of the small class are split between "open access" operations First Hull Trains and Grand Central. So it looks like all 14 are to be found on the south end of the ECML in the near future then. East Coast I think preferred the 125mph capable 180s to the 110mph limited class 90 option; I mean look at Virgin's "Pretendolino", which seems to be accepted that it will arrive at it's destination about 15 minutes late compared to the 125mph Pendos.

 

[ukrob]

I wonder where LMs 153s will end up? I personally believe that they will be the first of the "Sprinter" classes to go when it comes to it.

How come?

 

[starrymarkb]

DDA - can't be modified like other stock without losing too many seats.

 

[ukrob]

They can be semi-permanently coupled to each other or to other 15X though, so I don't buy the DDA argument

 

[tbtc]

They can be semi-permanently coupled to each other or to other 15X though, so I don't buy the DDA argument

We could call the new class "155". Oh, wait...

 

[Failed Unit]

They can be semi-permanently coupled to each other or to other 15X though, so I don't buy the DDA argument

If you think about it the toilet is at the small door end. Lets say you modify the toilet so a wheelchair would get in, you would never get the wheelchair on the train (at that end) as there is no space between the drivers cab and the toilet. Remember the cab at that end is in the walkway to allow the driver enough room to squeeze in (but not swing a cat).

You could move the toilet to the other end, but that is expensive. Or remove the toilet but the routes they are on are too long for that. If you couple them together you will still have the problem of access for all.

I agree the 153 will be the first of the sprinters to go. (unless they remove the cabs and make them 155's again.

 

[ukrob]

If you think about it the toilet is at the small door end. Lets say you modify the toilet so a wheelchair would get in, you would never get the wheelchair on the train (at that end) as there is no space between the drivers cab and the toilet. Remember the cab at that end is in the walkway to allow the driver enough room to squeeze in (but not swing a cat).

You could move the toilet to the other end, but that is expensive. Or remove the toilet but the routes they are on are too long for that. If you couple them together you will still have the problem of access for all.

I agree the 153 will be the first of the sprinters to go. (unless they remove the cabs and make them 155's again.

No you don't. Remove the bog and put the 153 in the middle of a 155/156. They may well be the first sprinters to be scrapped, but it isn't going to be because they won't be DDA compliant in 2020. Railways are a business after-all.

 

[Failed Unit]

No you don't. Remove the bog and put the 153 in the middle of a 155/156. They may well be the first sprinters to be scrapped, but it isn't going to be because they won't be DDA compliant in 2020. Railways are a business after-all.

True, or permanently couple them to the 156, so the service has got the bog. There are plenty of 156 services which need to be 3 coaches afterall.
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EMT gets 156s from NT

I hope they are the former North West one (156422 - 429) as a better match to the rest of their fleet.

 

[ChrisCooper]

156s for EMT makes more sence than 150s as it gives a common fleet, and also EMTs services are more suited to 156s than 150s.

Would I be right in thinking that this would be the first time that 156s have made a significant move. I'm sure the FSR 156s are all original Scotrail units, and the Northern 156s are all RR NW and RR NE units arn't they? Oviously some Central 156s moved to 'one' but that was hardly a major move considering when first delivered to RR Central they were based at Crown Point anyway and would have operated the same routes. All of the other Sprinter fleets have been moved around a lot.

 

[WatcherZero]

Adonis interview with railnews.co.uk, he admits thameslinks slipped and wont seen an announcement before the autumn but claims the 1300 pledge will still be met, he also says that their will possibly be another announcement before the election, I presume hes talking about the GMITA announcement.