RMT Talks

[GardenRail]

Although was it not NR who cancelled? Or am I misreading the post above?

Yes, NR cancelled on the 21st August. The meeting had been planned in for the 22nd for weeks. I sense patience amongst the ranks is growing thin.

 

[footprints]

It's almost as if the Government wanted to agree a deal with the union that can bring train services to a complete halt but are indifferent about offering a similar deal to a union that can't.

Perhaps ASLEF's monumental blunder of announcing 22 days of strike action on LNER has also made the penny drop in Westminster that no matter how much is offered to the rail unions, it's only a matter of time before they'll find something else to strike about.

 

[74A]

Maybe the government do want to make an issue with the RMT. They are not affiliated with the Labour Party. They were expelled years ago for supporting election candidate from a different party.

There is also the added complication that the RMT is demanding a no strings deal. I know at some TOCs a deal was previously agreed that was waiting approval by the DfT. This had some productivity included which the RMT now don't want included.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Perhaps ASLEF's monumental blunder of announcing 22 days of strike action on LNER has also made the penny drop in Westminster that no matter how much is offered to the rail unions, it's only a matter of time before they'll find something else to strike about.

I am glad you said it. I have been biting my tongue.

 

[CFRAIL]

Maybe the government do want to make an issue with the RMT. They are not affiliated with the Labour Party. They were expelled years ago for supporting election candidate from a different party.

There is also the added complication that the RMT is demanding a no strings deal. I know at some TOCs a deal was previously agreed that was waiting approval by the DfT. This had some productivity included which the RMT now don't want included.

I did wonder if it was because of ASLEF being affiliated with Labour

 

[dk1]

I did wonder if it was because of ASLEF being affiliated with Labour

Only reason Labour got my tactical vote.

 

[Towers]

s

It's almost as if the Government wanted to agree a deal with the union that can bring train services to a complete halt but are indifferent about offering a similar deal to a union that can't.

Assuming you’re referring to the RMT, guards strikes are hardly trivial as far as the disruption is concerned!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

s

Assuming you’re referring to the RMT, guards strikes are hardly trivial as far as the disruption is concerned!

True, but not as much as a drivers strike.

 

[Towers]

True, but not as much as a drivers strike.

It’s still pretty substantial; neither is a good look for a new government!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It’s still pretty substantial; neither is a good look for a new government!

Oh I agree totally. The new government has to walk a fine line.

 

[GardenRail]

It's almost as if the Government wanted to agree a deal with the union that can bring train services to a complete halt but are indifferent about offering a similar deal to a union that can't.

People are forgetting that Network Rail employees are getting messed around at the moment. They employ the Signallers. Have as many drivers as you like, but without the signalling side, nothing moves.

 

[DMckduck]

Surely this simply has to be a settled, a totally avoidable dispute only months into a new government.

Then the tories will pull out very quickly that they actually settled with the RMT.

 

[Signal_Box]

I’m going to start my new role at Network Rail starting from September in a grade 5 role. If and when the paytalks are successful between both the parties, would there be a salary increase in my case too? Could be a trivial question but appreciate your assistance. Thanks

Yes is the short answer you’ll get the grade 2 salary (new scale) from day one of your employment then move to grade 4 post signalling school, and finally grade 5 upping passing out at your location all on the new scale.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2024 ==

People are forgetting that Network Rail employees are getting messed around at the moment. They employ the Signallers. Have as many drivers as you like, but without the signalling side, nothing moves.

Trains moved albeit between 0700 and 1900, and only on trunk routes during the strikes so not totally correct.

 

[GardenRail]

Yes is the short answer you’ll get the grade 2 salary (new scale) from day one of your employment then move to grade 4 post signalling school, and finally grade 5 upping passing out at your location all on the new scale.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2024 ==



Trains moved albeit between 0700 and 1900, and only on trunk routes during the strikes so not totally correct.

Well if you're going to split hairs. Wasn't a very useful service was it.

 

[12LDA28C]

Perhaps ASLEF's monumental blunder of announcing 22 days of strike action on LNER has also made the penny drop in Westminster that no matter how much is offered to the rail unions, it's only a matter of time before they'll find something else to strike about.

Seeing as the LNER dispute has been ongoing for two years and is completely unrelated to the national dispute over pay and conditions which will most likely be settled when the pay offer goes to a vote, this is just nonsense.

 

[footprints]

Seeing as the LNER dispute has been ongoing for two years and is completely unrelated to the national dispute over pay and conditions which will most likely be settled when the pay offer goes to a vote, this is just nonsense.

The length of the LNER dispute is irrelevant. The fact it's unrelated to the national dispute only backs up my original point. Where's the incentive for the Government to settle a future dispute about pay if the perception in Westminster becomes that ASLEF or the RMT will just find something else to strike about regardless?

 

[Lewisham2221]

The length of the LNER dispute is irrelevant. The fact it's unrelated to the national dispute only backs up my original point. Where's the incentive for the Government to settle a future dispute about pay if the perception in Westminster becomes that ASLEF or the RMT will just find something else to strike about regardless?

Because it's not like they've just gone "oh, we've resolved one dispute, let's find something else to strike about", they were already striking about it before the pay dispute was resolved* (working on the assumption that the offer will be accepted)

 

[12LDA28C]

The length of the LNER dispute is irrelevant. The fact it's unrelated to the national dispute only backs up my original point. Where's the incentive for the Government to settle a future dispute about pay if the perception in Westminster becomes that ASLEF or the RMT will just find something else to strike about regardless?

I'd imagine that the Government are rather less concerned about a strike at a single operator than a national dispute, and that appears to be borne out by their response to the announcement to strike which seems to have been an instruction for LNER management and the union to work things out. It seems the Government can tell the difference between a local issue and a national one, even if you can't.

 

[Starmill]

Well if you're going to split hairs. Wasn't a very useful service was it.

It did the job for freight, albeit poorly. For passengers, the service on offer was so dire on primary routes, most passengers took the money back, or travelled another day, as trains generally couldn't leave the depot until 0700, and obviously couldn't all leave at the same time. A lot of secondary routes were pulled completely. Granted this may partly be because of passengers misunderstanding and thinking there's no service at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2024 ==

Where's the incentive for the Government to settle a future dispute about pay if the perception in Westminster becomes that ASLEF or the RMT will just find something else to strike about regardless?

There's very rarely been RMT action over anything other than a pay award or the role of the guard. Other disputes have usually been settled without strikes, or with very few.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2024 ==

My cynical side worries that the delay is because, unlike the drivers, the DfT maybe keen on attaching some strings to our offer.

I would hope that anything less than parity with the drivers on the % size of the pay increase with no strings would be met with a ballot for strike action.

It could easily just be that it's an English Bank Holiday weekend and nobody wanted to work over it specially to see this through. Perhaps there'll be an update Tuesday night, or Wednesday night.

 

[66701GBRF]

The length of the LNER dispute is irrelevant. The fact it's unrelated to the national dispute only backs up my original point. Where's the incentive for the Government to settle a future dispute about pay if the perception in Westminster becomes that ASLEF or the RMT will just find something else to strike about regardless?

The same unions represent workers at different companies and thus have different disputes/negotiations going on. Just because a dispute with one set of companies might be over, doesn't mean their other disputes are.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Seeing as the LNER dispute has been ongoing for two years and is completely unrelated to the national dispute over pay and conditions which will most likely be settled when the pay offer goes to a vote, this is just nonsense.

The perception is there though, and no matter how unfair that may seem to you, it is the perception.

 

[Lewisham2221]

The perception is there though, and no matter how unfair that may seem to you, it is the perception.

The perception of people unable or unwilling to differentiate between two very clearly different disputes, because it's easier or more politically comfortable for them to have another dig and unions and train drivers. Or at least, that's my perception

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The perception of people unable or unwilling to differentiate between two very clearly different disputes, because it's easier or more politically comfortable for them to have another dig and unions and train drivers. Or at least, that's my perception

OK. You are unknowingly making my point and even playing the victim to boot.

 

[Lewisham2221]

OK. You are unknowingly making my point and even playing the victim to boot.

I'm not a train driver, so I certainly aren't playing the victim. But as a non-train driver, I can clearly see that this is a separate dispute - affecting only one TOC - which began long before there was any sign of the national pay dispute being resolved.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

For the record, my grandfather was a lifelong member of the NUR and in fact died on the railways. I have loved railways all my life and badly want them to succeed. Yes, I can see it is a separate dispute and many on here will. However, civil servants, politicians, the media and above all, the traveling public will see - oh the railways again - they wont even differentiate between ASLEF/RMT/TSSA etc. The PERCEPTION will be - the railways have militant unions and it is always something- and it does not matter how good the case is or that it is separate, it will just not be seen that way. I am SORRY. Life is unfair. Perception often counts a lot. I think it was the Michael Douglas movie, An American President who used the line - "Politics is perception". A union is part of the political scene even if it is only looking after its members -and the strike is partly to get the attention of the political paymasters.

 

[Signal_Box]

Well if you're going to split hairs. Wasn't a very useful service was it.

Definitely not no, especially for freight operators.

 

[scrapy]

On directly speaking to a fairly senior member of RMT, who is unable to divulge specifics, even if he knows. I get the impression that talks are going well, an offer for relevant TOC staff is expected within the next week or two. Offer is likely to be no strings. There is no reason to suggest that the offer will be inferior to that received by ASLEF.

 

[Moonshot]

On directly speaking to a fairly senior member of RMT, who is unable to divulge specifics, even if he knows. I get the impression that talks are going well, an offer for relevant TOC staff is expected within the next week or two. Offer is likely to be no strings. There is no reason to suggest that the offer will be inferior to that received by ASLEF.

Surely they could have done that at the same time as the ASLEF announcement. I don't see why talks are actually required....just bring the pay scales up to date and then move on.

 

[Towers]

On directly speaking to a fairly senior member of RMT, who is unable to divulge specifics, even if he knows. I get the impression that talks are going well, an offer for relevant TOC staff is expected within the next week or two. Offer is likely to be no strings. There is no reason to suggest that the offer will be inferior to that received by ASLEF.

But is that based in fact or just assumption? The delay seems odd and, if any offer is indeed “no strings”, completely without basis - what is there to cause a delay?

News reports are all expecting a thoroughly dire Budget speech, which doesn’t bode well. Unless of course the delay is merely to wait until after that speech?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2024 ==

Surely they could have done that at the same time as the ASLEF announcement. I don't see why talks are actually required....just bring the pay scales up to date and then move on.

Indeed; it seems odd to have any delay at all if there are no details to thrash out. There must be a reason for it, given that the RMT have been waiting with bated breath for a deal to put to the membership.

 

[scrapy]

Surely they could have done that at the same time as the ASLEF announcement. I don't see why talks are actually required....just bring the pay scales up to date and then move on.

Talks with ASLEF started earlier than those with RMT. It could be that RMT have made demands that ASLEF haven't, which the DFT need to consider. It's less than 2 weeks since ASLEF received and offer, I wouldn't read too much into the delay. After all ASLEF received their offer a week later than they originally expected and on the day of the offer things were adjourned, yet there were rumours on here expecting the worst.

But is that based in fact or just assumption? The delay seems odd and, if any offer is indeed “no strings”, completely without basis - what is there to cause a delay?

Indeed; it seems odd to have any delay at all if there are no details to thrash out. There must be a reason for it, given that the RMT have been waiting with bated breath for a deal to put to the membership.

Those involved directly with the talks have to sign legally binding non-disclosure agreements. They will often give hints as to whether or not things are going well or not without breaking the agreement or disclosing what has been discussed. If things were going badly they would definitely know about it.

We don't know that there are no details to thrash out. There will always be details to thrash out and the RMT represent far more grades than ASLEF so it may be that things like costings etc just take a lot longer to finalise before a formal offer is made.

News reports are all expecting a thoroughly dire Budget speech, which doesn’t bode well. Unless of course the delay is merely to wait until after that speech?

Possible but I doubt it. It was admitted by the Tories that strikes cost the industry and the government a lot more than a settlement. The government can easily say that it is a below inflation pay deal (which it would likely be over 2 years), and is saving the country money, and putting passengers first.