RMT suspends strike action

[Whistler40145]

Is this Strike for the benefit of union members or the convenience of Bob Crow, so he can have a stranglehold on FTPE?

I don't work on the railways, but looking at this as a passenger & rail enthusiast.

 

[CarterUSM]

Is this Strike for the benefit of union members or the convenience of Bob Crow, so he can have a stranglehold on FTPE?

I don't work on the railways, but looking at this as a passenger & rail enthusiast.

Well it is the members who have voted to strike, not Bob Crow, so I would suggest it is for their own benefit.

 

[notadriver]

I agree with you Captain Speaking but it won't happen for at least 50 years. In the same way the autopilot on a Jumbo does most of the flying and yet a senior Captain on a BA service will be on 100k plus with the First officer on half that. Why haven't they been replaced with cheaper staff?

 

[Flying Snail]

Socialist Worker anyone?

What about it?

If the unions are representing their members, why is Mr Crow "instructing" his members rather than advising or requesting them?

Collective bargaining. All members are given the opportunity to vote on such action and all are expected to abide by the decision supported by the majority.

I have been on both sides of that, In the case where the majority went against my views I respected the decision.

 

[CosherB]

I agree with you Captain Speaking but it won't happen for at least 50 years. In the same way the autopilot on a Jumbo does most of the flying and yet a senior Captain on a BA service will be on 100k plus with the First officer on half that. Why haven't they been replaced with cheaper staff?

Aircraft automatics are very advanced these days, but still far from capable of completely replacing the pilot, or it would have happened. AF477 (A330, all on board lost) showed what happens when you you rely too much on automated systems that are not 100% capable. The A320 into the Hudson River and the B777 that landed short at Heathrow (all survived both accidents) show where human pilots can save a situation that the automatics are incapable of.

It's that third dimension that makes flight so very different to other transport forms; you can't just bring the vehicle to a controlled stop if all systems fail - it has to keep on flying under control all the way to a safe landing.

Oh, and they have been replaced by cheaper staff. The days of the £100K captain and £50K First Officer are gone; cost has been taken out of civil aviation partly by reducing the once-inflated salaries and the fabulous expenses of air crew that dated back to BOAC days. It's worse in the US, where you can earn more driving a bus. But it's rapidly happening here as well. It has to - airlines are a competitive business and cannot hide from economic reality. Railways are far more protected and therefore have got away with an awful lot of overspend to date. But it will not last - the railways will either 'get real' economically, or be drastically cut as other forms of transport take their business.

 

[Whistler40145]

What I really meant was although union members voted to strike, were they pressurised or instructed to vote yes or am I barking up the wrong tree?

 

[CarterUSM]

What I really meant was although union members voted to strike, were they pressurised or instructed to vote yes or am I barking up the wrong tree?

It is up to each individual member to vote yes or no according to their conscience. I know what you are getting at though, and I am not sure. The union will advise you to acceptand offer if they deem it satisfactory, but I am not sure they advise you to reject an unsatisfactory one. Our pay deals at ScotRail have always went through for years with minimal objection though.

 

[313103]

What I really meant was although union members voted to strike, were they pressurised or instructed to vote yes or am I barking up the wrong tree?

1. Yes you are barking up the wrong tree.

2. No one is ever pressurised to vote Yes or No depending on which way the union wants.

3. They are most certainly not instructed to vote in a way the union wants, for a start it would be a dangerous road to go down, as a member of staff could report the union for doing so. Members on the advice of the Company Council and Full Time Officer advise staff on which way to vote. For a start the ballot process is private and what one does in private is private. There are laws to protect the companies interests. The successive Governments have bailed companies out who have had industrial action.

The one thing i find truly amazing is that the unions will always get slated for carrying out the instructions of its members. Yet you never hear of the times when unions prevent strikes by advising staff to vote against such thing.

 

[Whistler40145]

I totally understand and am sorry for barking up the wrong tree.

I try and see both the members of the unions & passengers point of view & it is pretty frustrating.

I just hope I haven't been sent to Coventry.

 

[CarterUSM]

I totally understand and am sorry for barking up the wrong tree.

I try and see both the members of the unions & passengers point of view & it is pretty frustrating.

I just hope I haven't been sent to Coventry.

Not at all mate, there's no harm in asking a question!

 

[66526]

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The print workers priced and struck themselves out of a very cosy billet. The technology to automate train driving is here now, and not just on slow speed lines like LUL and DLR. Many fast transit suburban train systems outside UK are driverless.

Take a look at TGV and see how the driver merely follows the commands of the on-board systems. It would be so easy just to let the on-board systems take full control and cut out the middle-man. The only reason it's not happened is passenger confidence in high speed driverless trains. But if the economics of unrealistic pay increases driven by strike-induced disruption to services keep on stacking up, the time will come when that particular bullet will be swallowed by Train operating Companies. The passengers will soon get used to it when they see driverless trains operating quite safely - and more cheaply and without the disruption of strikes.

In the case of the print unions, it took Eddie Shah to get the ball rolling when he'd had enough of the mega pi55 taking by those unions. Once it was rolling, the rest of Fleet St followed.

I wonder who the Eddie Shah of the rail industry will be?

So how does that mean drivers aren't entitled to a decent wage as our jobs stand at the moment? Have you ever been a train driver and do you actually fully understand what the job entails?
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[strange6]

So how does that mean drivers aren't entitled to a decent wage as our jobs stand at the moment? Have you ever been a train driver and do you actually fully understand what the job entails?

There are far harder jobs for much less pay. I have said it before and I'll say it again; driving a modern train and learning the copious amounts of rules is not brain surgery or rocket science to somebody half clued-up. Now I know some of you don't like these opinions being expressed but tough, there you have it. Drivers already get very well paid for what they do and with the state of things the way they are today, they should be ruddy well grateful. (And most of them are)

 

[Whistler40145]

I work for a Cancer Charity & no member of staff in my organisation is receiving a pay rise this year & most of our finances come from donations & we are very lucky to have a job, so we just put up with it.

 

[66526]

This is the point I'm getting at. I have never once thought or suggested that train driving is rocket science, however it is demanding. Erratic shift work. Lots and lots of knowledge of rules, traction and routes to keep on top of. Combined with the actual skill of driving the train and the responsibility which we have, I believe we earn the correct wage for what we do. There are a lot of occupations out there who are underpaid but that is not our fault and us being paid minimum wage (or whatever the public want from us) isn't going to change that.
I think that instead of people moaning about their wage and comparing it to that of other industries/proffessions they should stand together and do something about it.
I believe everyone has the right to free speech and I am not disputing this, however...
I do not know the complexities of most jobs, only the people who perform a certain job actually understand the responsibilities and skills involved. Therefore, do not assume because it says in the red topped papers that train drivers do nothing and get paid ridiculous ammounts for it that it is the truth.
I'm proud of being a second generation railwayman and also strive to provide a good service to customers and do my job to the best of my ability. If you ask most railwaymen out there they will tell you the same but it does really grind you down when 'know it alls' who don't even understand what my job involves tell me that I'm overpaid.

 

[Whistler40145]

I certainly didn't mean that railway drivers get overpaid. I am just pointing out that in some jobs, money doesn't grow on trees and it's like gold dust to have a job.

 

[Flying Snail]

I work for a Cancer Charity & no member of staff in my organisation is receiving a pay rise this year & most of our finances come from donations & we are very lucky to have a job, so we just put up with it.

It is only fair to point out that FTPE along with all other TOCs are not charities. They are profit making corporations whose shareholders expect a return and whose senior managment are on huge salaries with large bonuses.

Railway drivers in particular amongst frontline staff are in a strong position due to them being impossible to replace en masse temporarily and the time/expense/experienced manpower required to train up permanent replacements. Why shouldn't they use that to their advantage by strongarming pay raises out of their employers?

The fact is we do not live in a meritocratic utopia where everyone is paid what they "deserve" or a communist ideal where everyone gets an equal share. We live in a free-market capitalist, everyone-out-for-themselves greed fest. It may be coated in a thin layer of welfare ideology but at the heart of our world economy is naked greed based on the principles of supply and demand. In this situation TOCs require train drivers and it is cheaper for them to pay relatively high salaries to those in the jobs than any current alternatives.

In a world where borderline retards can earn hundreds of millions due to them being able to kick an air filled sack around a field I think it is laughable how people can be so upset over some train drivers holding out for a small pay rise.

 

[Minilad]

How come when a rail union, or any union for that matter, call a strike it's always the workers that get the brunt of peoples wrath. Rarely do you hear people blaming management for the situation.
In truth they are both to blame and strike action is the last resort when all other avenues have failed. But it's always the workers that get the blame for the situation.
Oh and if you think the wages are all down to strong arm bully boy tactics then you are way off the mark. More often than not wage rises have come with some very serious strings attached. We don't get something for nothing these days.

 

[notadriver]

There are far harder jobs for much less pay. I have said it before and I'll say it again; driving a modern train and learning the copious amounts of rules is not brain surgery or rocket science to somebody half clued-up. Now I know some of you don't like these opinions being expressed but tough, there you have it. Drivers already get very well paid for what they do and with the state of things the way they are today, they should be ruddy well grateful. (And most of them are)

You aren't a train driver so you have no idea what actually doing the job entails. Full stop.

 

[Minilad]

You aren't a train driver so you have no idea what actually doing the job entails. Full stop.

Nail on the head.
Oh wait they might have played Trainz or Train simulator :roll:

 

[66526]

And read the tabloids for that enhanced expert opinion

 

[185]

A snapshot.

Driver A drives for Firstbus.
Driver A was driving a National Express service in an airport, took a wrong turn thinking it was a shortcut and ended up on a live, main runway, with a busload of passengers. He gets sacked, for gross misconduct.

Driver B drives for First Transpennine Express.
Driver B is sick to the back teeth of driving trains with broken horns, which risks the lives of trackworkers. He reports it several times and gets sacked for gross misconduct on a technicality related to a faulty horn report.

So why is one on £20,000 and the other on £37,000 ???

Driver A was sacked, only to receive a call 4 days later from First offering him his job back as they were short. In the event, he had already got a job at Stagecoach the day after.

Driver B was sacked, and will probably never drive a train again, despite never once having a safety of the line incident. He cannot go to another company without totally re-sitting the driver rules & school.

 

[dstrat]

What everybody seems to forget though, is we have the train companies running the show with the objective to achieve year on year profits for themselves.

But what about the year on year parity in giving crew a salary which keeps up with the rise in prices with everything else? Why is it acceptable for companies like First to do anything possible to bring up their profits for shareholders, clearly already vested themselves but not a big issue when the bloke in the street wants his take-home to maintain a standard of living?

 

[Oswyntail]

You aren't a train driver so you have no idea what actually doing the job entails. Full stop.

So anyone who IS a driver (and therefore, by definition, not something else) knows nothing about what other jobs entail, and so is in no position to comment or, more pertinently, claim what is a fair wage relative to anyone else. Ah yes, the "adolescent" argument - "You just don't understand".

 

[66526]

Including those of us who had other jobs before we joined the railway?

 

[Minilad]

Like me for example who has been both a train and bus driver.
So maybe I do understand

 

[tbtc]

So anyone who IS a driver (and therefore, by definition, not something else) knows nothing about what other jobs entail, and so is in no position to comment or, more pertinently, claim what is a fair wage relative to anyone else. Ah yes, the "adolescent" argument - "You just don't understand".

So when we had a Trade Union representative on Radio Sheffield blaming the bankers for the economic problems (to deflect attention), should the DJ have told him that he can't criticise the bankers' money if he's never worked as a banker before?

Can I not say that footballers are over-paid if I've never been employed as one?

How silly will these arguments get?

 

[9K43]

Does anyone expect this to cause a lot of friction and bitterness between Guards & Drivers to the point it becomes personal rather than professional?

ASLEF have always been for themselves, with swathes of staff from FOC's losing their jobs to fund drivers pay awards.
The railway is run for ASLEF and anyone who is not in the fraternity does not matter. In this jungel its every man for himself.
I sill recon that TPE will give the driver what they want as these strikes will be hitting TPE's profit where it hurts, and ASLEF will get what they want with no strings.

 

[9K43]

T&Cs have changed a lot over the years since BR ended. 'Selling' conditions to increase productivity and flexibility in workings is one of the reasons wages have risen since the end of BR. In the initial period after BR when the new private operators were negotiating changes in T&Cs additional payments such as ending the mileage and DOO allowance and increasing single manning in exchange for an increase in annual salary among changes to other conditions although mileage and DOO seem to be the most common across the railway that were withdrawn from what I can gather from the time. Going back to the introduction of the BR Traincrew agreement in October 1988 a Driver earned £154 p/w (£5 rise) and a Conductor earned £119 p/w (£5 rise) on implementation while a Senior Conductor earned £130 p/w (£15 rise).

For DOO a driver was paid £8 a shift , and a flashing tail light and a yellow bardic hand lamp.

 

[Whistler40145]

I agree with 9K43.

I think FTPE would be rather stupid to keep Drivers striking & also making a loss in profits, which in turn could lead to pay cuts.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Were no more than the two nominated strike days stated as days for industrial action....or were other future days mentioned?